Glass panel questions;

[av8rps]

I could use some help from the group determining what to do with my panel;

I have an older black and white MGL STRATOMASTER in a plane I want to make a new instrument panel for and am considering upgrading to something colored, and newer. But the more I research, the more confused I'm getting. There are not only a whole bunch of choices, but also a multitude of approaches (e.g. standalone MFD, I Pad with Stratus and Foreflight, an iLevil with additional software, and/or using a seperate engine instrumentation display like an EIS from Grand Rapids, etc.)

Also, it seems that figuring out the real cost of all you will need by the time you have it all figured out is a huge guessing game since almost no one sells a complete, easy to understand and install package. So any info telling me what to expect for final cost would also be really helpful.

I really would like the ability to have synthetic vision and gps all in one unit I can put in the center of my panel so it can be seen equally from both seats. My current thoughts are using an I Pad with a Stratus 2 and an annual subscription to Foreflight. I can do that for around $1200 plus the $200 annual subscription. But then I need a seperate engine information system.

My next thought is buying a $1300 iLevil 3 AW along with the Foreflight subscripion and a Grand Rapids EIS adapter that lets all the engine monitoring go through the I pad also. I'm guessing that will still be under 2k total plus annual fee.

I would like to hard wire and hide under the panel the ahrs unit (I hate loose crap all over these already small cockpits, been there done that...), but it seems that might be an issue because of tube and fabric construction causing signal loss? (Or so I read). Anyone have any experience with that?

But after thinking about all that, am I better off just biting the bullet and spending the big bucks to do a Dynon or MGL all-in-one?

I will admit that not only do I not like an airplane without at least some old fashioned steam gauges, but I also have a hard time spending 10 grand for a dual screen set up like seems to be more and more common. In my head I still like to think homebuilts are supposed to be inexpensive.;) So I also have to admit that I really have't researched the all in one units as much as the previous options. But maybe I'm sellimg myself short and therefore need to remain open minded.

I really like some of the great features of the new glass panels, and am not knocking those that opt for the best. But I'm thinking there has to be some middle ground on all this. And maybe I just don't know what I don't know?

So anything you guys can do to steer me in the right diection I would appreciate.

[bumsteer]

Can't be of any help in your choice, but I totally agree about the number of choices. At Airventure, you could walk into any of the 4 hangars, throw a dart and probably hit someone selling some type of glaas panel display. I will admit the all-in-one displays are what I'm considering. Best of luck with your decision.

Rick

[Norm]

I would also like something a little nicer but don't have any budget so I will stay with what I have for now. One that I have always been curious about is the SkyLab Flybox. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ri5GB0ywQQA
I can never find much more that this video so I am thinking it was a failed attemp at bring glass to the ultralight community. Does anyone have any more info on this interesting attempt?

BTW my GR EIS blew up when I was doing the install so I went back to the steam guages I had on hand. Darn......

[WWhunter]

I have been looking at the same thing as you. I have dreaming of doing a total stripping of my panel and upgrading to glass. My main focus though is for a split screen. The one half will have engine management, with the typical flight instruments on the other side of the screen. Navigation these days is easily down via phone/tablet/GPS so I should have everything covered.

I posed the question on the EAA site on what type of unit would be best and basically admonished for asking! Since my question also mentioned that my flying was mostly low and slow, the responses were that I didn't need 'gadgets'.

I really like the Demon and Advance brand units but have also read good thing about MGL and GRT. I think Paul Dye just installed one of the lesser known brands in one of his planes. If a smart guy like him, uses one, it should be ok.

Oh, I should also mention that I read somewhere that the updates can get expensive on certain units and are free on other units. I believe this was for the mapping features.

[efwd]

Oh yes!. I had not considered the cost of updates and sales people won't mention it either. My Garmin panels will be costing me in the neighborhood of about $600 a year! Crrraaapp! There are less expensive options but you forgo stuff like airport maps and sectionals etc etc.
Eddie

[DesertFox4]

Paul, as much as I would have loved to put two beautiful Dynon or MGL full featured panels in my new Kitfox 7SS, I too have a limited budget and opted for the MGL Lite in the Explorer version which is 8.5". I didn't have panel space for a 10" screen. The MGL Lite has most of the full featured virsion so it will do everything I need.
My goal was a dedicated screen with IPad back up with Stratus wifi AHRS. I've found the Ipad to be unreliable here in the Phoenix heat for a primary flight instrument. It shuts down way too quickly in warm enviornments from over heat. Also in any turbulence it is not easy to precisely control your screen inputs.
I haven't fired up the new Exlporer Lite yet but am close. I will keep my Garmin Aera 500 which also has traffic and weather. I purchase the Ipad Air 2 and the Stratus 2b for my model four so I already had that setup.
The MGL uses an Rdac box to hook all your engine sensors to and it mounts on the engine side of the firewall with a can bus cable that carries all engine info. through the firewall to the iEFIS screen. Neet set up and simple to wire. The 3 sizes of MGL Lite screens also have the auto pilot brains inside, just buy the servos. The sreen also can control transponders and radio frequency changing. I did purchase the MGL V6 radio with built in intercom also.
See photo below of my panel set up.
12050

[jiott]

av8rps, in my opinion for VFR flight you don't need dual screens or any steam gauge instruments for backup, just a single screen. If the screen goes dark, the Kitfox can be easily flown just by looking out the window and using wing attitude to regulate airspeed. Some means of backup navigation is good to have, but that can be had fairly inexpensively with portable GPS, hand held radio with VOR capability, or the best and most popular-an Ipad with Foreflight and Stratus ADS-B receiver. I would never recommend using a portable device such as an Ipad as your primary instrument.

I have been flying for 3+ years with a Dynon Skyview single screen and no other instruments other than a radio (transponder is built in to the Dynon). My backup navigation is Sporty's handheld radio w/VOR and my cellphone with the free Avare app. I don't know about others, but Dynon makes it very easy to choose what you want and then add up the total cost on their website, or any of their avionics dealers. If you want airport diagrams, approach plates and sectionals, the subscription cost thru Dynon is $100/year I believe, which is much cheaper than Garmin. All the Dynon database updates and all their software upgrades are totally free to download and install. I fly with the Dynon 10" screen split into 3 parts-primary flight instruments, moving map, and a small strip for engine instrumentation.

[Danzer1]

I have been flying for 3+ years with a Dynon Skyview single screen and no other instruments other than a radio (transponder is built in to the Dynon)

Just a little clarification - the transpondeer is not built-in, it is a $2,200 add on box - option/upgrade, plus the antenna.

Greg

[colospace]

My thought process is like Jim's, single screen should be sufficient for day VFR.
I have boxes of all the Dynon stuff to be fully ADSB compliant as well as receiving ADSB in. I figured any issues would be easier to sort out if I only had to deal with Dynon. I hope to start working on wiring schematics soon so I can get the panel, etc. populated over the winter.

[Guy Buchanan]

You asked a big question so I'll offer a big answer. How's that? And I know most everyone knows this stuff, but since you didn't mention it in your question I thought I'd remind you.

First you've got to define your mission. I see the following flavors:


Resale - If you're going to build to sell, or refurbish the avionics to improve the sale price, then you can purchase any avionics that will resell at full value. This obviously depends on the aircraft. (Nobody's going to pay for a certified G1000 system in a Kitfox, whereas they might in an Evolution.)
Day VFR - This is my category. For this you only need a compass, airspeed indicator, altimeter, some engine instruments and paper charts. Maybe a radio and/or transponder if you're in an area that requires it.
Light Night VFR - This means you're going to fly around a little before sunrise or a little after sunset or when you're absolutely certain to have good air and ground visibility. No cross country allowed. Standard VFR instruments will do it.
Night VFR - is really IFR, since you can fly into a cloud or black hole anytime and you'd better have the instrument capability to handle it.
Light IFR - Yes, there is such a thing, particularly here in Southern California where, if you live on the coast, you're going to want to be able to punch up and down through the marine layer most of the year. Problem is you've got to have the discipline to recognize you're only going to do that light IFR and not punch out through a fast cold front when you need to get somewhere.
Hard IFR - You know the minimum instrumentation required for IFR. For what I call 'hard IFR' I think you need to add a lot of redundancy, since you'll be relying on the instruments in bad conditions and over long periods of time.

So have you defined your mission? If like most Kitfoxes you're going to do light night VFR at most then all you "need" is the basics.

The second step is to define your budget. Personally I tend to spend too much but like to spend too little so I usually end up spending just about the right amount. (Make sense?) I much prefer spending too little than too much, since the latter nags me forever, whereas I can forget the former. (Unless I buy stuff that breaks. Hate that.) You need to be ruthless about the budget thing because that will really help you define what to buy.

What about me? I run minimum steam gauges, plus a 2" display Garmin Pilot 3 with paper chart backup, and a GRT 2000 engine analyzer. I really like the huge red light that comes on when I go out of bounds on one of the engine parameters. (I have radio and transponder and compass too.) Using these I can and do go anywhere day VFR.

Recently my parents offloaded an old iPad that I loaded with free the "Fltplan Go" app connected to the $85 dual receiver Stratux ADS-B-in receiver available on Amazon. It works really well, particularly for traffic awareness. The iPad screen's horrible and it overheats like mad, so I would never rely on it, but the software is really good, and the system works really well, particularly for less than $100 total.

For the rest of the Ramona guys, nearly everyone has Dynon. (Mostly RV's.) Seems that after looking at total cost it's the best value solution. Most run single screen, no backups (day VFR) and many run the full 2-axis autopilot / FM solution that allows you to engage the autopilot on climb-out and disengage just before the flare. It will handle all the navigating in between. Some run dual screen if they have the space. (One day VFR guy claims his autopilot is his "emergency get out of jail free card". If he gets into IMC he'll just turn on the autopilot and cross his fingers.)

There you go. If you've gotta have glass, I'd seriously check into the Dynon systems. Otherwise I'd go minimum steam augmented by a stand alone GPS plus some kind of pad / Stratux combo plus paper charts.

[jiott]

Also, it seems that figuring out the real cost of all you will need by the time you have it all figured out is a huge guessing game since almost no one sells a complete, easy to understand and install package. So any info telling me what to expect for final cost would also be really helpful.

I hate to sound like a Dynon salesman, but it IS a complete, easy to understand and install system. Most everything is an optional add-on module (box) that can be added later if you choose, even radio and intercom. Transponder and GPS is all ADS-B 2020 compliant. A costly but nice option for those leery of wiring is their wiring interface panel which includes circuit protection and is basically plug and play with pre-made wiring harnesses. All this is also true of Advanced Flight Systems (owned by Dynon).

[Danzer1]

A costly but nice option for those leery of wiring is their wiring interface panel which includes circuit protection and is basically plug and play with pre-made wiring harnesses.

Jim, have been following Dynon for quite some time for my upcoming build. Not sure what you are referring to here - can you provide a link?

If you are inferring the AFS - ACM (Advanced Control Module) - info to date as released by Dynon - that module is only available if you buy a complete Quickbuild panel. A completely done panel ready to install in the aircraft. Yes it is costly and yes very plug and play as it is all done for you.

Let us know if you're referring to something different or have info the rest of us don't have.

Another option close to that would be Vertical Powers VP-X for the home panel builder.

[Av8r3400]

I am absolutely ecstatic about my Dynon D180 (http://www.dynonavionics.com/flightdek-d180.php) in the Mangy.

I have full flight instruments and engine EIS in one box. Small, light and it was surprisingly easy to install.

It is older technology compared to some of the other offerings. It is also a fraction of the cost of their SkyView system. I don't mind having a separate GPS (Garmin Aera 500) and Comm radio (iCom A220).

[av8rps]

Wow, you guys sure deliver when asked! I have so much good info now I'm thinking I will probably have to regroup / do more research. Consequently I do have a few more questions;

- For iPad users, would a fan on the backside eliminate overheating issues?
- Do iPads also turn off when too cold out too? (Like my iphone does)
(I live in Wisconsin so winter is probably more of an issue than our relatively mild summers)

- It appears Dynon has the best reputation from all I've read, but is also more costly than some others. How about annual update costs? Is it easy to do?

- Do any of the all in one units (Dynon, MGL, Advanced, etc) uffer from heat and cold like the iPad does?

For the record, I just want a VFR aircraft. But because I am thinking about using it for some occasional 500 to 1500 mile trips in the future, I really would like an "only in an emergency get out of jail option" available if I really needed it. A flight instructor friend of mine tested the synthetic vision on foreflight and said it would be a great tool for that scenario. He put it much higher than an autopilot, but of course restated only for an emergency use to get you out of trouble, not to encouage VFR into IFR conditions, which I completely agree with.

I've flown these airplanes so long I hate to even admit how seldom I use instruments. But if traveling and being more mission focused on getting to my destination, then I feel having a few more tools available to use if I need them would be a valuable addition. And even though I didn't think I'd ever be saying this, I'm even kicking around a simple autopilot. But because I just love hand flying my plane, that's a bit further down my list.

Oh, and for any of you wondering about using my plane for long cross countries... I've learned that doing trips in these planes is a blast. Sure fast is quicker, but you really get to see the country at 100 mph vs at 200 mph. And there is a special added comfort knowing if something really goes wrong that you know you can pretty much land anywhere. Don't try that in a Glasair. And frankly, I've done enough trips in fast airplanes at altitude. Boring, boring, boring... I prefer the slower plane flying lower, even if it does take me twice as long to get where I'm going, the ride's more fun imho.

And heck, it really is all relative. Look at how many guys have flown J-3 Cubs all over tarnation...at 70 mph no less. Compared to them we're flying rocketships. :cool:

[jiott]

Yes Greg, I was referring to the AFS-ACM system. I was told, second hand info, by someone who had apparently talked to the factory that the ACM system was also compatible with Skyview and was planned to be made available for Skyview. This conversation was about a year ago. I was also led to believe that you didn't have to buy the completed panel but could specify the modules you wanted and the wiring harness lengths and then install it in your own panel. A quick call to Dynon factory would clear up what is actually available and when. Obviously a high end option such as this would need factory help and would not be ordered online. I was just trying to include all the possibilities offered by Dynon (and AFS which is part of Dynon). This is way beyond av8rps original questions due to cost, but is a fantastic option for those who can afford it.

[jiott]

av8rps, Dynon Skyview has no annual update costs, unless you want geo-referenced airport diagrams, approach plates, and sectional charts, then you have a $100 annual subscription fee. The updates are very easy to do: You down load the new update onto a USB memory stick from the Dynon website, then take the stick out to your airplane and plug it into the panel, then push a couple of buttons and it uploads into your Skyview system-that's it. Aviation and obstacle database updates come out monthly so you never need to carry up-to-date paper charts-you get this even if you do not opt for the $100 subscription. More extensive software (firmware) updates come out usually several times a year (free), which include new features and bug fixes if necessary.

I've never heard of a Dynon unit turning off due to heat or cold, but maybe someone from more severe climates than mine has other information. The screen is VERY readable in full sunlight, something you struggle with on an iPad. I do think that an iPad is the perfect backup system. The neat thing about a Dynon and iPad combo is that you can take your iPad to your hotel room or home at night and load it up with a new flight plan (in Foreflight) for the next day, and then go to the airplane and upload it to the Skyview wirelessly (a simple $35 option).

[WWhunter]

The neat thing about a Dynon and iPad combo is that you can take your iPad to your hotel room or home at night and load it up with a new flight plan (in Foreflight) for the next day, and then go to the airplane and upload it to the Skyview wirelessly (a simple $35 option).

Jim, I am guessing this is a bluetooth thingy (I'm not very computer savy)? Would an Android type system also be able to do this? Asking because I am a 'thrifty' type flyer and use a Strait Talk Andriod type phone and my tablet is also Andriod. Never fell into the 'i'-crowd and have been perfectly happy with Avare on my phone for a back-up over my AvMap EKP-IV.

[SkySteve]

You down load the new update onto a USB memory stick from the Dynon website, then take the stick out to your airplane and plug it into the panel, then push a couple of buttons and it uploads into your Skyview system-that's it.

For what it's worth, these updates are easy, but must be done with a PC. The updates cannot be downloaded to any Apple device. There is a small, free program to download from Dynon's website to accomplish these updates.

[jiott]

Steve, I have never downloaded a free program from Dynon to accomplish the regular updates. I believe you are referring to the $100 subscription updates which do require a small download program.

[jiott]

WWhunter, The $35 thingy is a wi-fi adapter, not Bluetooth. I have not used it personally, but from what I read it will work with any tablet, iPad or Android, that has Foreflight Mobile installed. It also works with PocketFMS EasyVFR, SkyDemon, Ozrunways, and FltPlan Go. This is my understanding, but best to check with Dynon before purchase.

Regarding flight plans, I guess I am old fashioned, but I hardly ever put them into my Skyview EFIS. On long x-countrys I do make a flight plan on Skyvector and then print it out on paper. Then as I fly I punch in each new waypoint as I go because it is very easy and quick to do, having all my waypoint identifiers at hand in sequence on the paper printout. With this method I can change my mind or go wander off to see something interesting without having to then spend time staring at my panel to update a preloaded flight plan. The IFR boys probably do use flight plans more religiously.

[SkySteve]

Steve, I have never downloaded a free program from Dynon to accomplish the regular updates. I believe you are referring to the $100 subscription updates which do require a small download program.

Jim,
Now that I think about it, I believe you are correct! My mistake.

[PapuaPilot]

Yes, there are too many choices. You can put everything on a 8 - 10" screen (6 pack, navigation and engine instruments) or you an split it up in several units.

Personally I decided to get the Garmin G3X and have everything on a 10" screen, with the iPad Mini as my backup. I use the Garmin Pilot app on my iPad, which is $75-150/yr for updates and keeps me from having to do the expensive G3X updates.

Do you have a budget you have set? That is where I would start.

FYI iPads are notorious for going out if they are in direct sunlight. BUT . . . I installed an AirGizmo mount in the center of my panel for my iPad Mini and have never had it qui and that is without cooling air. It gets pretty hot in the summer in Idaho. There is a hole on the back of the Air Gizmo for cooling air that I was ready to use if need be, but haven't.

[Flybyjim]

Upfront cost, upgrades and downloads. There is some cost to most systems. For me I have an I-fly and it covers anything you need to get from point A to B. Easy to read, easy to operate. A couple of round gauges and your covered for VFR.

[rosslr]

An interesting discussion given that we are presented with sooo much choice these days! I think it comes down to designing your panel to fit your mission and then personal choice as mostly the offerings are pretty good. I prefer small er panels and not all in one. I therefore went for the MGL minis. I know other brands offer similar. Then I had a Garmin 695 left over from my last aircraft that was yoke mounted - I panel mounted it in the Kitfox - these units have tremendous capability. Finally, an Ipad mini is our very good panel mounted friend! It is 12mths from first flight and a couple of hundred hours and all works well. We have crossed Australia a few times through some VERY remote areas and hot country and nothing quit. I do have a fan in the back that directs air into the back of the Garmin and I-pad which I recommend - the overhand of the panel dash keeps the ipad in shade mostly but I recently flew a Model 4 across OZ which didn't have the overhang and the ipad overheated a few times.

Anyway, that's one persons solution into the mix. By the way, the total panel cost under $10k.

cheers

[av8rps]

Keep it up gang. After all this great info I have even more to think about. But I'm getting closer. I am beginning to lean in favor of the Dynon Skyview all-in-one, mostly for its versatility to add other features and functions at a later date if I decide to.

And while more $$ than my original concept of utilizing an iPad, I think the Dynon is overall a good value.

Any opinions on 7, 8, or 10 inch screens in the cockpit? I'm thinking if I only have one Skyview that I should go to the 10 inch so when I split screen it I will still have good size graphics.

Do you think I can use my existing senders from my 912 (connected to MGL Stratomaster currently), or will I need to purchase new?

Paul S.

[Av8r3400]

My Dynon was designed to be compatible with the OEM Rotax senders, but had optional settings to configure for several different types.

So, probably yes.

As a point of interest, I considered the Skyview system, I have about $6k in my D180, iCom, and Garmin mode C transponder, the Skyview was about $12k for GPS, Radio and Mode S Transponder. Definitely more capability, but not at twice the cost. At least, not to me.

[efwd]

Go with 10 inch. I say that since I don't know how old you are. I went big because I aim to have this thing awhile and I want to still see it in a few years. "of Course" this stuff will be obsolete in a few years unlike our steam gauges. Since I will probably replace it as frequently as a laptop I could have got away with smaller and gone bigger with age. :rolleyes:

[jiott]

I think with one Skyview screen the 10" is the only way to go because of the reasons you mentioned-splitting the screen 3 ways. I have this setup and the graphics and text are still very readable to my older eyes.

As far as obsolescence, I believe it will be much longer than "a few years". The Dynon D180 has been around for close to 10 years (not real sure about this number-chime in if you know) and is still being supported. I believe Dynon intends to keep supporting Skyview for a similar length of time with their system of free firmware upgrades. The problem with old fashioned steam gauges is not obsolescence but plain old mechanical failure, due to all their moving and rapidly spinning parts. One of the main reasons I went with glass is because of studies I read which showed glass to have a longer life due to no moving parts. If you get past the very initial phase where manufacturing defects may bite you (but you are still in warranty) the chances of failure become very small. Even if the manufacturer eventually quits supporting it, there is no reason you can't keep on using it as long as it keeps functioning-same as the guys with old steam gauges.

[PapuaPilot]

I would agree with getting a 10" screen. I really like mine. I think it is wise to buy from a company that you think is going to still be around in 10 years or more, the smaller the company the more likely they may go out of business.

As far as going obsolete it is a hard say, but right now there is nothing big on the horizon in the aviation industry. It is not like it was 10-15 years ago where everything was changing. Now the glass panel has matured and we have some really great choices. Transponders with extended squitter for ADSB out and WAAS GPS navigation has become the new standard and should be here to stay for quite awhile. As long as there aren't any big changes in the industry your panel should be great for 10-20 years.

The Garmin 430/530s have been around for 15 years and are becoming obsolete due to spare parts issues. I believe the Dynon D-180 is almost 15 years old too.

Here is my Garmin G3X, the iPad Mini in the center of the panel isn't shown. If the screen was much smaller you really couldn't see all of the 3 things clearly.

[efwd]

Phil, Jim, finally some favorable news. I was being cynical in the name of my own sanity. I don't really know what these things are expected to do in the realm of longevity admittedly. I think Im just preparing myself for disappointment so when it does happen I will be prepared. LOL. Other stuff I have bought and have not even opened yet have had some negative comments on other posts. One example, I am going to use a 912is and Im reading about gearbox issues! AArrrghh. Trading carburetor sync and float issues for gearbox issue? :eek: