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OK, I am going to post questions earlier in hopes of not having to fret over trial and error work. I am working on centering the flapperon in the jig and before I use an entire tree remaking the jig until I get it right I am wondering if someone might have a trick to drilling the spar hole so that when the flapperon is placed inside the block, the leading edge and trailing edges line up. I have drilled the spar hole right in the center of the seam but as you can see it does not align the edges correctly.
Pilot4Life
08-08-2016, 01:22 PM
You mentioned that the spar hole is centered, but your photo shows off center. May be the camera angle, but it still looks off center. The difference in the photos appear to be the same amount that your alignment is off.
Well, upon looking at it while removed from the spar, it appears your right. I placed the drill press bit in the crease but I think I may have not tightened down the deck of the press. I think it may have wandered. Thanks for your comment.
Eddie
jiott
08-08-2016, 07:18 PM
Personally I would forget drilling the spar hole just right. Drill it quite a bit oversize to make plenty of clearance for the spar. Then just butt your clamped blocks to the end of the flaperon, carefully lining up the leading and trailing edges with the split in the blocks. Then just trace around the flaperon end with a marker and your ready to bandsaw out the profile. Use the outboard end of the flaperon and you don't even need to drill a clearance hole for the spar.
Thanks Jim
I wasnt thinking of the fact I was going to cut the hole out anyhow. Very much appreciated.
Cherrybark
08-08-2016, 08:51 PM
Eddie,
I'm far enough behind you in the build that I have no clue what this step involves. But I want to thank you for posting the question and others for answering. It's added to my list of threads to re-read and will obviously be helpful when I reach this stage.
jiott
08-08-2016, 09:58 PM
Carl, these blocks that you make clamp (lightly) around the flaperon in order to have a means to level them when you are installing the control horns at the specified angle, and also later when you are rigging the flaperons on the wings and setting the control neutral and throws.
I'm trimming down the flapperon nylon bearing to the required 13/32 length. The manual says to measure "from" the flange. Can someone advise, do I include the flange in the overall measurement. The flange is 3/32 inch thick. Or do I put my ruler on the shoulder and measure out from that surface 13/32?
Eddie
Esser
08-13-2016, 01:08 PM
When ever I hear from the flange I go from the face, however, doing this bearings, shorter is better than longer or else they won't butt up tight to the tube. You will see what I mean when you assemble.
jiott
08-13-2016, 01:25 PM
You measure from the inside edge of the flange. Then when you slip the two bearing halves into the flaperon hinge and butt them up, the hinge will not be trapped tightly between the bearings but will be able to move side-to-side about a 1/16" or so. This allows it to line up with the inboard hinge bracket (on the wing trailing edge) without binding.
Ok flapperons pretty much assembled. Does anyone care to share their method of ensuring the flapperon mounts are parallel with each other? I figure I could just make measurements at the leading edge as well as the trailing edge and keep those measurements consistent between each one. The manual says that the ribs aren't necessarily parallel with one another so I am just trying not to make minor errors only to need to modify something once there on. I seem to come across neat little tricks people use after I have made my efforts in vain.
Eddie
jiott
08-17-2016, 10:32 PM
If I understand what you are asking, just use a carpenter or machinist square to line up the edge of the flaperon brackets perpendicular to the wing trailing edge.
Of greater importance is making sure the spacing between brackets is exactly right to mate up with the flaperon hinges without binding. Of course that was done when you glued the wing ribs to the spars-right! (assuming you built your wings from scratch-not factory quick build).
Thanks Jim
I have factory built wings. But rib one was my work and hence my comment on making little errors. I had the same binding issue as Carl mentioned in the rudder pedal torque tube and really don't enjoy having to make adjustments that just add time and effort uneccesarily. So I'm exposing my insecurities out there in the hope all you guys can help keep me from the extra work. I have aircraft maintenance experience but fabrication is new to me and although this is supposed to be a learning experience I really appreciate what everyone adds to the build process with the methods that proved successful for them so that I'm not learning the hard way. I really prefer things done without Jerry Rigging it. Flight controls without binding is good.
Esser
08-18-2016, 05:43 AM
Hey Eddie, I just went back to look at what I did and I never posted anything because I lost the pictures.
I remember this being a two person job. Make your marks on your ribs and then with it fully supported in several places so it doesn't sag, put the flapperon in place. If you are like me, your #1 rib won't line up perfectly and you will have to bend a little "S" curve in the hinge on the flapperon. This is pretty typical and lots of people have had to do it. Once it's all in place, shoot the bearings with LPS 1 and you will be amazed at how much of a difference the LPS makes.
Sorry I couldn't be more help but this should get you in the right direction.
Thanks Josh
I have seen the S curve before. I dread the hole drilling part of this build. I started this project with discovering I have some things to learn about running a drill. I wish my drill had a built in level. the reinforcement plates that are on the ribs don't have a very big flange in which the rivets hold the flapperon brackets on. If I dont get these on straight and drill nearly absolutely perpendicular then the rivets will be awfully close to the edge. Thanks for your input.
Esser
08-18-2016, 11:06 AM
Take some small clamps, clamp your brackets to your rib, and back drill through your bracket then add clevos. This way the hole is exactly where you want it and you drill can't wander. Get a second person to stand at the leading edge and tell you which way to angle your drill before you start. Makes a big difference with a second set of eyes.
Thanks Josh
got the right side mounted today. A bit of S turn in the #1 bracket needed but no binding!
The manual instructs you to place masking tape along the scribe line.
The first photo reflects the almost imperceivable mark. I am not certain that this is the mark because it seems to be an incidental line of material ( the white stuff that is the outer surface of the fiberglass ) that is remaining from the manufacture process. The second pic is the tape placed on that faint marking. Does this sound or look familiar? I also am not understanding why I am only removing the top surface. Have I just not read far enough to see when I remove the bottom surface?
Eddie
Esser
08-22-2016, 08:01 AM
This looks correct Eddie some of the gel coat and around the lights needs to be sanded, superfilled and sanded. Those lines are for reference, I found that you won't follow them to a tee.
Rough cut down to the line with an angle grinder than sand for a straight line.
You do the bottom after the top. You can do it at the same time in my experience. They say to do it one at a time so your tips don't angle down or up but you can adjust that after.
As long as is trimmed to satisfy you aestheticly, you're all good.
Any guidance is appreciated. Otherwise I have to call John on Tuesday.
I am installing the wingtips. I have trimmed only 1/4 inch off the fiberglass along the scribe line as instructed by the manual. Has anyone installed these lights and how have you maintained adequate room. the way I see it, if I dont trim the leading edge spar back a bit then this light is not going to fit. As you can see I need this wing tip to push in about 1/2 inch more for it to but up against the capstrip. It seems I am needing to trim 1/2 inch off the spar. Thought I was pose the questions before I get my self in a corner.
Eddie
bholland
09-04-2016, 08:03 AM
I cut the spar flush which gave enough room to install the light. I also made a frame to go around the light out of aluminum for better support. If you'd like can see it in more detail at mykitlog.com, search under Kitfox and Brett Holland
Thanks Brett.
I like the builder log site.
Eddie
Ok, since I ran across the Oratex product at Oshkosh I have requested a price quote from the company in Alaska. I first got a "rough" quote as I was told he didn't have the data on the Kitfox SS7 to more accurately price it out. I believe there have been individuals here who have purchased Oratex for the SS7 which I would think the data would have been retained on file. After I gave him the data he required on the plan views provided by the builders manual I have yet to get any information. I have sent an email with a reminder that I am still waiting for the detailed price quote and as of yet, crickets from the other end. Can anyone speak to their experience with customer service from Oratex. This is a bit concerning to me and Im somewhat uneasy with ordering this stuff at all as a result. It seems I can reach them by telephone easy enough but to have emails ignored may just be the start.
Eddie
bumsteer
09-10-2016, 10:23 AM
i just recently sent an email to Oratex ( Alaska) asking for a quote on material to do the tail feathers of a model 5. I received a detailed reply within 2 days. I just spoke with Paul yesterday and he is swamped with orders and inquiries. He said I could expect shipment in 2-3 weeks. Maybe right after Oshkosh their workload soared?
Rick
jrevens
09-10-2016, 10:38 AM
Ok, since I ran across the Oratex product at Oshkosh I have requested a price quote from the company in Alaska. I first got a "rough" quote as I was told he didn't have the data on the Kitfox SS7 to more accurately price it out. I believe there have been individuals here who have purchased Oratex for the SS7 which I would think the data would have been retained on file. After I gave him the data he required on the plan views provided by the builders manual I have yet to get any information. I have sent an email with a reminder that I am still waiting for the detailed price quote and as of yet, crickets from the other end. Can anyone speak to their experience with customer service from Oratex. This is a bit concerning to me and Im somewhat uneasy with ordering this stuff at all as a result. It seems I can reach them by telephone easy enough but to have emails ignored may just be the start.
Eddie
I've always found Lars to be very accessable on the phone (even fairly late into the night). Paul, a little less so. They're not always real quick with email. There are 2 of us in Colorado building SS 7s with Oratex. They should have the info you need.
Yes his work has significantly increased Im told. I'm looking at being in need of this product very soon if I am going to proceed with my build. Hoping that I can get my panel started this weekend maybe or putting primer in my wing structures. I guess its time to place an order for the firewall forward. :)
Im done mounting the Garmin Pitot tube with the exception of the tubing. As I a have not purchased the Garmin panel yet can someone tell me about how they did their tubing? Kitfox provided one 30' length of tubing but It seams I will need two as the Garmin has a second line. Presumably its for the AOA line. Can anyone advise as to how they routed the two airlines. I suppose they are routed along the aft wing spar and pass through the butt rib along with the fuel lines and electrical for the nav lights?
thanks
Eddie
colospace
09-10-2016, 12:37 PM
Eddie,
I talked pretty often with Lars during my covering. He was always available and helpful. Suggest calling in the evening/night though as he is on Alaska time but often on the phone with Germany until quite late/early our time.
I routed the pitot lines to the aft edge of the fuel tank and then ran them between the tank flange and the spar.
Thank You Gary
Do I need to buy a second air line from Kitfox or Do you think I can get it from Garmin or Aircraft Spruce?
bholland
09-10-2016, 02:48 PM
This is how I routed my hoses and wires. Not sure if its the best way, I guess time will tell. I have shrink wrap around everything for extra protection where is in contact with adjacent parts.
Looks really secure. Thank you much
jiott
09-10-2016, 08:37 PM
There are several ways of routing the pitot and AOA tubing, but I ran mine out to the wingtip and then thru the inside of the rear spar to the cabin area. Seems like a long ways, but remember pitot and AOA measures air PRESSURE only; there is no air FLOW to generate losses. I also used some lightweight automotive split plastic corrugated wire loom to protect the tubing and wiring inside the rear spar (rivets and I-beam insert).
bumsteer
09-12-2016, 12:29 PM
Saturday, I had written that I was told to expect my shipment from Oratex in 2-3 weeks. This was from last Tues. (9/6) when I confirmed payment. Well I received the package this morning. Not too shabby in my book.
Rick
TahoeTim
09-12-2016, 12:32 PM
I'm jealous. I paid for mine on June 26th, just before they took off for Oshkosh. Still nothing but it's due today.
Ok. I called Paul at Oratex this afternoon. He thought he had sent the quote. I got it this afternoon and was pleasantly surprised to find the quote marked down from the original rough estimate.
Eddie
Im trying to maximize my order and shipping from Kitfox. I am looking at the Whirlwind propeller (I won't need it for awhile) but I am unsure as to what the difference is between the 70" and 75" blades. Whirlwind does not display what the difference would be. Seems all the information they provide is identical for the two except the length. How would the weight be identical? Can someone educate me as to why I might buy one or the other? Oh, of course the cost is different. $1650 vs $1825
TahoeTim
09-16-2016, 04:56 PM
generally, the longer the blades, the more efficient the prop is bu I think the larger prop is for the turbo rotax. call kitfox to be sure.
Allright, this does not seem right. The manual does not depict the airframe in the figure so I am unsure as to which side to route the brake lines. This seems like its a bit crowded and IMHO is where the definition "Chafing" would be developed. The lines are all laid up against airframe, floor and springs? I don't have the firewall but it seems from what photos Ive looked at that the firewall would mandate that these brake lines route through here with no other options.
Guidance is appreciated. I have noticed that the factory put an anti chafe cover over the tubes but I cant see behind the center console to see whats going on here.
jiott
10-06-2016, 10:30 PM
Yes, that is the area you must route the brake lines. As the manual says, use generous loops, etc. so the lines don't pull tight at the extremes of motion, including pedal adjustment extremes. When you get all the lines routed you will see that they don't move much as you actuate the pedals. I believe chafing will be very minimal. Here is how I did mine.
jiott
10-06-2016, 10:43 PM
Here is another one showing a better view up under the console to the parking brake valve.
Thank You Jim
I will also have the parking break so I guess while I am at Aircraft Spruce tomorrow taking the Sportair Workshop for the electrical class I will buy more break line. Thats quite a bit of line there with the loops and all. I see how that improves things regarding chafing though. Thank you again.
Eddie
PapuaPilot
10-07-2016, 06:40 AM
Here is how I did mine. I did put some anti chaff on certain spots that isn't shown here. Even like this it was a pain to bleed.
Dave S
10-07-2016, 09:51 AM
Phil,
I like how you plumbed the "T" into the bottom of the brake fluid reservoir...that totally does away with trapping a bubble in the unavoidable cavity where the "T" is on its side to meet the "L" going through the firewall...also one less firewall penetration.:)
Curious how difficult/easy it is to check the brake fluid behind the firewall?
With regard to Phil and Jim's install of the parking brake. Phil has two lines while Jim's has four. I am not going to assume although I have an idea. What is the difference between the two installations?
Eddie
jiott
10-07-2016, 04:58 PM
I am sure Phil has 4 lines to the parking brake valve. It needs 4 to work. He just used different fittings and the other 2 lines don't show.
PapuaPilot
10-07-2016, 06:36 PM
Yes, my parking brake valve has 4 lines, the other two come out the back side.I think they weren't installed yet in this picture.
I believe the reservoir was installed it on the cabin side like the build manual suggested. I also believe the tee fitting on the reservoir came with the kit and was installed the way it is in the Model 5 build manual.
For checking the fluid level you just need a small stick or rod to use as a dipstick. I am able to remove the top aft cowl and have easy access to the reservoir.
Dave S
10-07-2016, 07:05 PM
Phil,
Thanks for the comments. I see the fault in my thinking now....The change to a horizontal "T" & "L" was apparently made with the S7 due to the permanent boot cowl, unlike the complete or partial removable cowl...I still like what you have for the S5 with the vertical "T" and no firewall penetration for the reservoir.
For anyone who has installed an autopilot. I noticed that Garmin has a device that can be purchased (GAD 27) that incorporates a handful of addtl things into the Garmin G3X touch. I does things like handle interior lighting, adds wig wag to landing/taxi lights etc. etc.. I also noticed there was a function that incorporated the pitch trim servo. Well, its expensive at around $500 as I recall. That leads me to wonder about my pitch trim and how it works in conjunction with the auto pilot servos if at all when I don't buy this thing. I assume I will be trimming out the flight controls before activating the Autopilot? What happens to trim if I turn the autopilot servos on and then have it change airspeed for climb or descent? Do the servos just work harder to maintain control if the pitch trim is not hooked up to the G3X? Anyone Know?
Eddie
Anyone have any photos to offer for the installation of the pitch and elevator Auto pilot Servos? Interested in seeing how you accomplished that. Garmin Servos due in the mail soon. :)
airlina
10-22-2016, 04:16 AM
Anyone have any photos to offer for the installation of the pitch and elevator Auto pilot Servos? Interested in seeing how you accomplished that. Garmin Servos due in the mail soon. :)
If you search the Teamkitfox archives by typing autopilot installation in the search box, some good ideas and photos from other installs. Bruce N199CL
airlina
10-22-2016, 01:59 PM
Eddie, I found a few shots of my A/P servo mountings and attach points. There are a variety of ways to attack this as you will see from this installations by other guys. In my case , because I have an IO-240 up front (read heavy engine) , I needed as much weight aft as possible, so my servos had to go behind my seat as you can see. Pictures 1 & 2 are the roll servo, 3 and 4 are my pitch servo. Roll servo is behind pilot, pitch servo is attached with a homemade bracket to underside of my baggage floor , aircraft center. A couple of points for the installation-make absolutely sure you have no overcenter situations with the A/P arm as this will cause bad things to happen- as in locked controls with no hope to recover! I am sure the Garmin installation manual will cover this with big red letters. And from a operational standpoint, there should be no flex in the servo installation as this will cause the A/P to hunt when you are flying. Bruce N199CL
DesertFox4
10-22-2016, 04:15 PM
Nice sturdy looking mounts Bruce. Good installation job.
airlina
10-23-2016, 05:32 AM
Thanks Steve , I am a firm believer in the "Dutchman clamps" that you see in the photos, very strong and easy to make. Bruce
All Right, lets see if I can get my question asked without confusing you all.
When covering the Rudder with Fabric (Im using Oratex but it should apply to everyone in all likelyhood) when the fabric covers the fiberglass leading edge how is the fabric dealt with with regard to the holes that accommodate the hinges. Do I cover then trim the holes out entirely or do I make cuts and fold the fabric into the inside of the fiberglass leading edge. Again, with Oratex I will be using heat activated glue and Im not able the use an iron on the inside to press it down. I believe the heat gun will need to be used and then I quickly fold over the fabric and press it down with my gloved fingers. Im betting John will be able to advise me. :)
Eddie
jrevens
11-06-2016, 10:29 PM
All Right, lets see if I can get my question asked without confusing you all.
When covering the Rudder with Fabric (Im using Oratex but it should apply to everyone in all likelyhood) when the fabric covers the fiberglass leading edge how is the fabric dealt with with regard to the holes that accommodate the hinges. Do I cover then trim the holes out entirely or do I make cuts and fold the fabric into the inside of the fiberglass leading edge. Again, with Oratex I will be using heat activated glue and Im not able the use an iron on the inside to press it down. I believe the heat gun will need to be used and then I quickly fold over the fabric and press it down with my gloved fingers. Im betting John will be able to advise me. :)
Eddie
Eddie,
The way I did it was to cover the surface & then cut out the openings with an Exacto blade. There is plenty of glued-down surface area around the cutouts, so it's not a structural consideration really. To secure & clean up edges like that, I took a small brush & applied some matching paint right on the edges of the cutout... not necessary at all, but it made me feel good. :)
Cherrybark
11-06-2016, 11:50 PM
Taking notes because covering with Oratex is my plan as well.
jiott
11-07-2016, 10:43 AM
Oratex or Polyfiber, I think john's advice is good.
Thought I could share a few things I did the past few days in the shop in addition to waiting for glue on the Oratex to dry. Used the Dremel tool with the hole cutter to cut out the holes for the vents. Worked well after I filled the first bit with Aluminum as it was the wrong kind. Bought the $4.50 bit for Aluminum and whipped right through it.
After fussing with the two part structural adhesive and popsicle sticks to apply on the foam stabilzer tips I discovered that the two part syringe product seems to be much smoother. I reapplied more product on what I had already allowed to dry then used a scrap piece of Oratex fabric to fold around and pull like a squeegee. It worked so well that I will barely have to do any touch up to have it ready for fabric. Its shinny smooth.
I also figured I could just cut some 1/8 plywood and fill in the butt ribs. Although it looks pretty cool as a two tone wood rib, I have painted it flat black like the rest of the airframe. Had I known it was going to look that nice I would have made sure the wood was free of any discoloring. I had planned on it being black so I didn't find the the cleanest pieces of wood.
Im looking to purchase the small black round rocker switches that Kitfox has been installing on their panels. I find them as inexpensive as 50 cents a piece. They are marketed as automotive/marine but they are 12v AC. I have a vertical power box and they tell me I can use any switch I like as they will only be notifying the VP that I want the power on to the items that I wire to the VP such as Nav lights. I also find the similar switch as a 12v DC but they don't have the labeling that I want or they have an LED in them. Any reason you can think of that I can't use the AC versions instead of the DCs that I don't like?
As it is my opinion that this panel is a work of art I aim to replicate it. If the owner of N65ZC is reading, I am sorry, but I hope your flattered. Your aircraft is everything I want. Anyhow, these are the switches mentioned above.
Eddie
jrevens
12-30-2016, 11:14 AM
Im looking to purchase the small black round rocker switches that Kitfox has been installing on their panels. I find them as inexpensive as 50 cents a piece. They are marketed as automotive/marine but they are 12v AC. I have a vertical power box and they tell me I can use any switch I like as they will only be notifying the VP that I want the power on to the items that I wire to the VP such as Nav lights. I also find the similar switch as a 12v DC but they don't have the labeling that I want or they have an LED in them. Any reason you can think of that I can't use the AC versions instead of the DCs that I don't like?
Eddie,
The AC rated switches should work just fine.
rv9ralph
12-30-2016, 08:15 PM
It was explained to me that the difference between the AC and DC rating is because... In an AC circuit the current flow is alternating and when the switch makes or breaks the circuit it does not arc across the contacts.
With a DC circuit the current is always flowing, therefore when the circuit is connected or disconnected there is an arc and the mating materials must be more robust.
In your application, with a low current flow it should not be a problem. But if there is current of several amps DC the switch should be rated for the DC load.
Ralph
Thanks guys. I emailed Vertical Power and not expecting a reply due to the holidays I got one that very same night at 10:00pm. Awesome. I discovered that the AC switches also have a DC value in the description that I hadn't seen. These are going to work fine. I just wish I understood why I can buy them for .99 cents and some cost $7. I am not one to use cheep on account of money but if I understood that the $7 ones used superior contacts or something I might buy them. These switches are not going to use much energy since I am using the VP-X
jmodguy
01-02-2017, 10:09 AM
EFWD
Check NTE (nteinc.com) for the round switches. They make snap in or threaded switches and are available from many different sources. Prices are pretty reasonable too.
I went with the illuminated round hole rocker with the square bezel. I also put a dimmer on the switch so the LED can be turned down or off. These are rated at 12V 20A! There are a couple panel pics in my photo album
Theres a document out there somewhere that details how to derate switches for AC or DC use. I thought it was on the ray allen site but I cannot find it... Maybe someone else knows where it is.
Found it...
www.bandc.aero/pdfs/Switch_Ratings.pdf
Thank you Jeff
I had just ordered my switches by the time your entry posted. I really like the threaded version of the switch. I am going to see what the quality of mine prove to be. If there cheap I may order these that you have provided a source for. I really like the idea of a dimmer switch on yours. Had I known that was doable I might have done those type myself.
Eddie
Okay, for those who enjoy seeing progress of those of us who are building. Have not been putting nearly as much time in as I should but here is a couple of the things I have accomplished the past couple weeks. Sorry, unable to figure out how to rotate image.
PapuaPilot
01-04-2017, 08:44 AM
That's one sweet panel. Which transponder do you have?
Hi Phil
I have the Garmin GTX345 w/GPS. Primarily went against Garmins recommendation just due to the fact their less expensive route would require two units to install. I want to install as few units as necessary. All-in-one
ADS-B in/out. Hopefully this avionics install will be simplified by the VPX sport I also bought.
Eddie
PapuaPilot
01-04-2017, 12:28 PM
I would have done the same thing if is was available at the time. I have the GTX-23 ES remote transponder and will need to get the GPS-20A plus the WAAS antenna to have ADS-B out. That adds up to an additional $1175.
Hello everyone, Im putting fabric on the horizontal and doing odd jobs while letting Oratex glue dry. Im cleaning the engine cowling of all that green release agent from the gel coat. Im using MEK as I did on the seat pan. It works but its expensive, and toxic so I wish I could use something else. Does anybody have any recommendations for getting this stuff off?
Eddie
DesertFox4
01-29-2017, 07:59 PM
Eddie, did you try water? We use PVA as a release agent on our carbon and glass parts.
If it is PVA which is green, it is water soluble. Try it under running water and a clean rag and see if it comes off easily. Hope that works.
WHAT!? LOL no I haven't. :rolleyes:
Thanks, Ill try it tomorrow.
OK progress followers. I have recently been working on instrument panel and covering the Horizontal stabilizer. I haven't put the perimeter tape around the stabilizer because I believe I need to ask some questions regarding how it is put on without wrinkles at the compound curve. Happy with what I have done so far though. I have been able to heat the fabric without having glue on it and that formed the compound curve well. The tape has glue on it already from the factory and I am afraid to start trying to get it to lay down and have the adhesive set up before the tape is laying flat. Need some more experience with this and I need to order some three inch wide tape for the larger diameter leading edge before I proceed. I have flipped the airframe over and preparing to get started on covering the bottom. Just need to get some antenna mounts prepared first.
Eddie
jiott
02-06-2017, 11:38 AM
I highly recommend the bias ply tape for difficult compound curves. It goes around anything, seriously. You just stretch it a little at the curves and it will lay flat (don't stretch any more than you have to because it gets narrower the more you stretch it and that can become noticeable). I actually used regular tape on the horizontal (used bias tape on the elevator and vertical fin). Regular tape does work, but it takes quite a bit of heat forming before and after gluing down-patience. The EAA website has some very good videos on this process in their "Hints for Homebuilders" in the Tube & Fabric section.
Looking good Eddie!
Dave S
02-06-2017, 12:07 PM
Ditto on Jim Ott's comments....Bias Tape conforms perfectly going around corners.
Guess I should report that it's Oratex. No bias tape.
This is probably going to turn out much easier than I think but I'm making it out to be a much bigger deal as I did getting the fiberglass release agent off my engine cowling. Will speak with Lars today or tomorrow.
Eddie
jrevens
02-07-2017, 02:36 AM
Hi Eddie,
It can be a bit of a challenge to do those curves. You need to get it glued down good on a straight section, and as you get to the curve it takes heat & stretching. You need to have the piece you're covering stable & secure, and probably have someone hold & steady it while you heat & pull. I found that concentrating the right amount of heat with the iron on the center area of the finish tape where it's contacting the tube initially, allows it to stretch in that area while the edges remain cooler. I would highly recommend that you build a mockup duplicating the curve out of conduit or other tubing of some type, and experiment/practice before you attempt the horizontal tail leading edge. It would be a shame to mess up your beautiful work. Obviously, the wider the finish tape, the harder it will be to make it conform around the curves. I messed it up on a few of them & ended up having to get "creative" with shaving off wrinkles with a razor blade and laying flat, patterned pieces over some areas. It came out looking OK, but it was frustrating.
Thanks John
I have used the shaving technique on the top of the rudder for the initial fabric.
Thankfully the tape will cover that. Thats where I learned to shape the fabric before putting glue on it. Of course thats not an option with the tapes being pre glued. Thats what concerned me about this final perimeter tape. Thanks for the guidance.
Eddie
jiott
02-07-2017, 02:51 PM
I guess I am still unconvinced that Oratex prefinished color eliminates the need to paint UV protection (PolySpray) and finish color. For instance, when you heat shrink the fabric or tapes whatever prefinished coatings are there will be drawn in tighter and denser, so no problem. But what happens when you heat stretch a tape as we are talking about; won't those coatings be pulled apart, letting in UV rays to rot the fabric?
The best I can describe what happens is the color coat stretches like rubber when it is heated. It becomes pretty delicate when hot which explains why a silicone release paper is placed between the iron and the fabric. I have abraded some of the coating off before but those spots are to be covered by reinforcing tape. I am not sure if the color coat is the product that is actually responsible for the UV protection just as Paint really isn't with Poly Fiber.
Eddie
Has anyone installed an Artex ELT. I picked mine up today at AS&S and it comes with a 23" long antenna that likely will not clear the ground if mounted on the weldment on the bottom of the airframe immediately behind the fuel header tank. I spoke with John M. today and his ELTs use an antenna that they mount within the airframe. That would be nice. Where is everybody else mounting these unsightly antenna?
Eddie
jiott
02-07-2017, 04:39 PM
I installed an ACS-E04 406 MHz ELT, but I believe the antenna is nearly the same. I put my antenna inside the fuselage alongside the baggage compartment. I believe this is where the Kitfox factory mounts theirs.
Danzer1
02-07-2017, 05:06 PM
Has anyone installed an Artex ELT. I picked mine up today at AS&S and it comes with a 23" long antenna that likely will not clear the ground if mounted on the weldment on the bottom of the airframe immediately behind the fuel header tank.
I would not mount an ELT antenna anywhere on the belly of an aircraft. Ideally, you want it located in the most survivable location. Also being mindfull of separation from other antenna(s).
YMMV, Greg
mr bill
02-07-2017, 09:18 PM
I mounted mine in the vertical stab along with the comm antenna. They both work very well.
Thanks everyone. Your right about the belly location. I was only considering crashing nose first with maybe a flip into an inverted position. I usually go big or not at all.
Funny, the next pic has an antenna nearly on top of the next with reported good function. Guess I wont worry too much about having mine inside near the luggage area that happens to be less than three feet from where my transponder antenna will be. Appreciate the input. Thx
Eddie
David47
02-07-2017, 10:28 PM
Must say, I like Mr Bill's idea. Good use of the vertical stab, other than for the odd bit of directional stability .....:D
I'm ready for critique. The airframe is upside down. Pics are on their side. I have installed the ELT and its antenna. You will note that the ELT is under the Flap mixer. It clears by about 3/4". The Coax attached to the antenna is routed through a grommet that will be RTV'd in. The BNC still comes off as the mount can be flexed to allow it. Or Cut the RTV securing the grommet and it will all come apart easily. I dont expect I'll be disconnecting it frequently. It seems that the rubber on the adel clamps securing the Coax will contact the Fabric so I will need the next smaller clamp without the rubber or maybe just trim the rubber off the clamp where the fabric touches?
Something that has me curious. The antenna instructions say to mount to something grounded with resistance of something like less than .03 ohm or something like that. Regardless, this thing isn't grounded. I don't want to scrape the paint off the airframe where that mount attaches. I may make a jumper wire over to the tab that the baggage floor sits on. Your thoughts?
How is an antenna grounded in a wooden airframe?
Eddie
Dave S
02-09-2017, 02:15 PM
Eddie,
A couple thoughts....your mileage may differ but I believe you are going down a solid path. I have the same ELT installed way back - slightly different placing of the unit under the mixer with the same antenna on the same side you have - but very similar.
Back when I was building the plane - the EAA tech counselor, who was also an IA doing heavy metal suggested inside the fuselage is a superior place to put it as if you ever actually need it- your either going to be on your back or your bottom in the swamp with a half a chance the antenna will be buried in the mud or broken off if it is mounted outside the aircraft. If inside - better chance of the darn thing actually working.
On the clamps - another option is to consider using bare aluminum aircraft clamps, rather than adel clamps, with either hockey stick tape ( comes in white or black) or the super good silicon self fusing tape around the tubing under the bare clamp to minimize the thickness of the cushion. In any case, I don't think a person wants to use any clamps without some type of abrasion protection for the airframe. FWIW - I used the plain aluminum clamps for the seat mounts with a single wrap of white hockey stick tape - it's still solid and still there. If you end up with any fabric contact - the answer is to double thick with an added fabric tape when covering.
On grounding - yeah, a person can bite the bullet scrape off some paint and ground to the baggage bay mount holes (which is what I did) - if a person does that it is also good idea to apply some dilectric grease/oil to prevent and corrosion/rusting of the ground point; or, run a ground wire all the way back to "mecca" ( common ground buss) under the panel.
One of my concerns was the potential for the bare antenna grounding out against the airframe so I slipped a small diameter poly tube over the antennae and zip tied it to a solid point above the antennae mount.
You're making good progress....:)
Perfect Dave, thank you for the advice. I knew I was going to get input on the unprotected clamps but I was hustling to go to work as I just finished locating the antenna where it is. I was not sure what I was going to use under the clamps so it was helpful to get that info. Thanks again.
Eddie
Cherrybark
02-09-2017, 08:45 PM
It is so very useful to have Eddie posting solutions to problems as I trail along a few months behind! Now my ELT mounting question is resolved.
jrevens
02-09-2017, 09:06 PM
Eddie,
Yes, as Dave said, you definitely need to "ground" your "ground plane"... it's an important part of the antenna "system".
As far as wooden aircraft (or composite aircraft for that matter) are concerned, a metal ground plane is fabricated and attached to the structure and is then grounded via a wire to the ground system of the airplane.
jiott
02-09-2017, 09:32 PM
You might give some thought to mounting your ELT in a more easily accessible spot. It looks to me like your going to have to remove the baggage floor (not real easy to do) to get at the ELT. Remember it has to be completely removed in order to properly test it at EACH annual. Those annuals seem to come around very quickly. Also in case your remote switch wire is damaged in a crash, you want to be able to reach the manual ON switch on the ELT if you are still alive.
I am doing an annual now, and I find I don't need to remove the baggage floor to get at everything. I just undo all the velcro holding the sides up and fold them down onto the floor. This nicely exposes my ELT which is mounted on the outside of the baggage compartment.
Thank You John, very helpful.
Jim, Thanks for the pointers. I had thought of the points you mention with one exception. I sure as heck won't be able to reach the switch on the device itself in the event the panel switch is damaged. As for the location under the baggage floor. I have used nut plates on four of the six attach points to make removing the floor pretty simple actually. I just unscrew the hardware from the inside. The two immediately behind the seat pan are accessible with a wrench when the seat pan is removed. I did that anticipating my need to remove the bag to clean it. I hate dirty interiors. However, to get the ELT out it is actually pretty accessible once the seat pan is removed. Certainly, in an annual, I will be needing to remove the pan to inspect underneath. I can reach in behind the header tank, flip the latch on the retaining strap and it comes right out through the space just beside the header tank.
I considered several other locations but my ELT has to be mounted on ridged structure on a horizontal plane with the face of the device facing forward. The installation guide puts a limit on the amount of flex that the mounting point is allowed so I had to add an angle along the back of it to eliminate the flex.
All the input here is greatly appreciated. Thanks
Eddie
jiott
02-10-2017, 10:24 AM
Eddie, sounds like you have thought it thru; that's the main thing. I just thought I would present another way of doing it and why I did it. When you get to this part of the build everyone goes different ways and they all have there little pros and cons.
Well Jim, by all means, continue to offer up the advice. It is very much appreciated and I am pretty sure I speak for Cherrybark too. :D
Danzer1
02-10-2017, 03:57 PM
Ed, don't take all that is written here for hoyle! Do your own research and check with your DAR, FSDO, technical counselor and insurance company.
1) FAR 91.207 (b) states: (b) Each emergency locator transmitter required by paragraph (a) of this section must be attached to the airplane in such a manner that the probability of damage to the transmitter in the event of crash impact is minimized. Fixed and deployable automatic type transmitters must be attached to the airplane as far aft as practicable.
What is "minimized" and "as far aft as practicable" is subject to much interpretation. This is why most certified aircraft have the ELT located in the tail (with access) - certainly all of those are not in arms reach to activate.
2) Having said that, the button on the transmitter is not intended to be there for manual deployment. It is there for testing.
3) Most all ELT manufacturers either require 32" to 36" of separation from other antenna's (ARTEX is one of those). BTW, FAR 43.13 306 g "recommends 36" and refers you back to the the manufacturer for the "required" separation. Whether it works or not is not the point - if not installed per the manufacturers instructions, you could have a legal issue if you were to have an incident (assuming you get it past airworthiness).
4) Most all manufacturers state that unapproved paint or devices shall not be attached or installed on the antenna (whip protector as mentioned prior) (ARTEX is also one of those) for the same reasons as above.
5) Your ELT "annual" does not necessarily coorespond to your "aircraft annual" timeframe. 91.207 (d) states: (d) Each emergency locator transmitter required by paragraph (a) of this section must be inspected within 12 calendar months after the last inspection for......
So if you activated and logged your ELT prior to your airworthiness certificate, the ELT annual must occur withn 12 months of that activation. You can move your aircraft annual up to coincide, but you can't move your ELT annual back.
And of course, lets not forget the requirement to change the battery at half life.
YMMV, Greg
Thanks so much Greg. I just sat down this afternoon before work and read through 52 pages of the ELT installation manual and found everything you mention. Im making the CG issues the argument for keeping it from being installed in the tail. I have not referenced the FAA material yet but the Artex manual states everything you did. I may need to move the antenna a bit to get it away from my VHF antenna. Honestly, anyplace you put an antenna impeads the next ones install location. The airframe is only so big.
Eddie
jrevens
02-10-2017, 11:14 PM
...
2) Having said that, the button on the transmitter is not intended to be there for manual deployment. It is there for testing...
Greg
Hi Greg,
My ACK 406 MHZ ELT has 2 little buttons & an LED on its panel-mounted annunciator ... the left one is for "emergency activation", the LED shows you if it is activated, and the right one is for "test & reset".
Danzer1
02-11-2017, 08:44 AM
Yes John, that is what the panel annunciator is for. There is also a button on the transmitter itself for testing - that is the one we were discussing. As someone mentioned mounting the ELT itself within arms reach - which is not necessary or intended by any manufacturer. All ELT manufacturers and the FAA state - mount as far aft as practicable - not "and within arms reach".
Greg
jrevens
02-11-2017, 11:59 AM
You're absolutely right Greg... if I could read (clearly) I would be dangerous! Thanks. :o
jiott
02-11-2017, 04:16 PM
My post about mounting it in an accessible spot did not say nor intend "within arms reach". What I intended was a spot that could fairly easily be accessed after a crash (where for whatever reason the ELT did not automatically activate and the remote panel wiring may have been damaged) to push the manual ON switch on the ELT unit. I am aware that that switch is normally only for bench testing, but if my life were on the line I would push the button and deal with the "instructions" later.
By the way, to give credit where it is due, those pics in my previous post were from the Kitfox factory showing where they mounted the ELT in their SLSA, which I copied because it looked good to me.
Danzer1
02-11-2017, 05:31 PM
about mounting it in an accessible spot did not say nor intend "within arms reach".
Here is your quote:
Also in case your remote switch wire is damaged in a crash, you want to be able to reach the manual ON switch on the ELT if you are still alive.
So what does "reach" mean - with your feet? Give me a break Jim. I don't care what the factory does. It wouldn't matter in a lawsuit. Many would not consider that to be "as far aft as practicable".
jiott
02-11-2017, 05:37 PM
I told you what I intended to say-sorry if you or any others misinterpreted it.
jrevens
02-12-2017, 01:20 AM
Many of us have mounted our ELTs in the same basic area as Jim, with antennas also similarly mounted. A good friend with a Mod.IV had some water leakage into the cabin during a fierce storm while the airplane was sitting on the ramp during a trip. Somehow water got into the remote and triggered the ELT. He was happy the ELT was mounted there because he could access it quickly to turn the thing off - the remote wouldn't do it. It worked well otherwise - he was contacted within a very short period of time by the monitoring agency.
Well, the point was well received here. If Johns scenario were to play out on my airframe, then I have to remove the seat pan to turn it off. If i should be mobile after a crash i would have to cut the fabric open in order to reach it. I dont believe fabric would be my concern At that point. But Jim, your very right. Thx.
Eddie
I think I got in around 7-8 hours in today. I love those kind of days.
First pic is this morning and last one is tonight. Im sure they are going to be sideways or something.
jrevens
02-17-2017, 10:45 PM
Lookin' good, Eddie!
Cherrybark
02-18-2017, 07:13 AM
What a day of progress that was! Thanks for posting the before and after pictures. And look, it's already painted!
DesertFox4
02-18-2017, 08:58 PM
Looking great Eddie.:)
Thanks gentlemen. Have Monday and Tuesday off so hopefully I'll get some good time in then too. :D
Well Monday and Tuesday are behind me. It took much longer than I thought it would to cover the right side of the airframe with all the angles and such. Got it mostly done though. After I got tired in the shop I studied some electrical stuff.. I am wondering, my Aero LED nav/strobe lights as well as the landing lights recommend grounding to the airframe near the lights themselves rather than run the ground all the way back to the airframe ground behind the panel. Interference noise reduction being the goal if I remember right. Well, the only place to ground too would be the spar. Does anybody do that. I am inclined to run my ground back as an individual wire outside the shielded wires that feed the lights. What is the difference, Wire or Spar. Either way the current is traveling back.
PapuaPilot
02-22-2017, 10:05 AM
Running a ground through the spars could cause interference. So could running the ground back externally. Both of these could lead to EMF and interfere with a magnetometer.
The best way to reduce interference would be to run the power and grounds in the same shielded cable. Attach the shielding at one end, in the cockpit. I did this in my plane and don't have any problems with my magnetometer, which is mounted on the outer spar rib and about 18" from the landing lights and nav/strobe lights.
jiott
02-22-2017, 10:54 AM
I grounded my strobe/nav wingtip lights to the spar out at the wingtip, exactly like the AeroLed instructions say. Been working fine with no radio interference for over 3 years. I checked with McBean and that's also how they did it on the SLSA's.
thank you Phil and Jim.
I am doing some of this electrical myself all the while kicking and screaming but I am learning by taking small bites. It can be so frustrating. Phil and the Sport Air workshop instructor both say to ground the shielding at one end but the Pulsar NSP instructions say to ground both ends. This is just the beginning. I am constantly coming across odd situations while reading diagrams, installation manuals and the like. I bought the Aircraft Wiring Guide and it is very helpful but at the same time it has recommendations that I install stuff I had no idea even existed. It makes the wiring more complex and the author recommends keeping it as simple as possible. AArrghh.
thank you guys for your help. I will follow Aeroleds schematic I guess. maybe I'll ground only one end of the shield?
Eddie
PapuaPilot
02-22-2017, 12:06 PM
Understood Eddie, there is so much to learn and lots of opinions too.
I discussed shielding with the guys in the avionics shop where I work. My understanding on shielding is you normally want to hook the shielding ground at only one end and do it at the end furthest away from where there is a potential for interference. When I wired the Garmin G3X I noticed the schematics showed the shielding being grounded at one end for most of the wires too.
For the magnetometer it was impossible to meet Garmin's distance criteria from electrical components and steel structure anywhere in a Kitfox. That is why I used shielded wires for all of my nav, strobe and landing lights. I decided to install the magnetometer on the outer wing rib to get it as far away from the steel lift struts and routed the shielded wires past it.
On a similar note last year I had my ACK 406 ELT inadvertently activate during a flight. When I talked to ACK the first thing they asked was what brand transponder I have. When I told them it was a Garmin GTX-23ES they said the problem was being caused by my transponder:confused:. The ACK cable (a phone cable) that connects the remote switch to the ELT was apparently too close to the Garmin transponder/antenna/cable. ACK said the solution was to move their cable as far away from the transponder as possible. I asked if using a shielded wire to replace the phone cable would work. They said yes and that one helicopter manufacturer makes their own shielded cable to replace ACK's OEM phone cable. During my condition inspection I installed a 4 wire shielded cable and grounded the shielding in the cockpit. Hopefully I will never have another false activation. The Air Force had called my wife before I got on the ground and told her about my plane's ELT going off. Not good! I had a bunch of texts from her and the Air Force when I landed and called them both to say everything was OK. I don't ever want to repeat that.
jiott
02-22-2017, 01:05 PM
Phil, curious about your ACK activating in flight. Did you not see or notice the red flashing light on the remote? Or did you see it and turn it off right away?
PapuaPilot
02-22-2017, 01:10 PM
I heard it first bleeding through the COM. Then I saw the red light flashing and cancelled it. Unfortunately it had been transmitting long enough that the ELT sent out the message to the satellites. I believe a 406 ELT waits about 1 minute before it sends the data packet.
wow, talk about scaring the hell out of your wife! not good. Thanks for that Phil.
Here is the latest photo.
On another subject. I would like to install the gear for the final time but need to know how people are achieving the polished aluminum finish I want before I install. I was at Aircraft Spruce today and found the NuShine multi step products that run about $38 each and I believe its three different jars to do the job. I have the Grove aluminum spring gear. Any help would be appreciated.
Oh yes, I put the seat pan in so a friends kid could get in and Ill admit I did some day dreaming from there as well.
Eddie
colospace
03-08-2017, 08:39 AM
Eddie, I painted the center portion that would be pretty hard to access later, and not particularly visible anyway. I polished the gear legs and the visible sides of the mounting blocks. I just went thru progressively finer wet "sand" papers (down to 2000 I think) and then just used Meguiar polish from the auto parts store. I think it polished up just fine.
Guy Buchanan
03-13-2017, 09:22 AM
Just to save you some time...
If you polish mill aluminum using the kits, generally you come up with a shiny crinkle finish, which some like, but certainly isn't "mirror". To achieve mirror you have to start with fairly course sandpaper, like 400, and work down to 2000, making sure you remove the previous scoring completely each time. (Work at right angles.) Then polish using compound. The grit you start with depends on how rough the original article is. If my memory serves, the Grove gear is pretty smooth on the mill faces, but has machining marks on both edges, which you'd have to remove with something pretty heavy, say 220, to get an initial "flat" surface you could bring up to mirror.
Well....
I spent 5-6 hours polishing just the outer legs and painted in between the mounts. I am happy but a little disappointed still that I didn't get all the Grove sanding marks out. I wish I had had Guy's advice about the starting grit number because I think he's right. Grove uses some pretty coarse sanding apparently. Unfortunately you cant see if you got down deep enough until you start working on the polish phase with the 2000. I actually had to start over on the top surface of the right leg and still I didn't get down deep enough. I started with 380 grit by hand the second try. It will have to do until another day when I go at the oxidation that develops one day. If you do this Carl, heed Guys advice. I bought an orbital polisher and thought it wouldn't take as long as it did.
jrevens
03-13-2017, 11:57 AM
I painted mine on top between and under the mounts for protection where it is inaccessible and unseen also. Then... I just "Scotchbrited" the rest (I can hear guys saying "ugh!" now). I like the look (really!), it's "low maintenance", and I'll just put a good coat of carnuba wax on it. That is unless I change my mind.
Av8r3400
03-13-2017, 12:53 PM
I thought about polishing my Grove gear. Then the lazy took hold and I just painted the whole thing with automotive urethane paint matched to the Nevada Silver on the bottom of my plane. Looks good and near zero maintenance.
Cherrybark
03-13-2017, 08:48 PM
I polished the control sticks e with progressive sandpaper and some compound I don't remember. Very quick job but doing the gear is a different level of work. I'll have to peel off the paper and see how the scratches look. Polished looks great but there is a definite appeal to taking advantage of a friend with auto painting experience and the proper tools. He's already signed up for the job of painting all the small bits.
The satin look of the Scotchbrite approach would look good too, and certainly low maintenance. Several of my small aluminum parts, door hinge for instance, have that look.
That fuselage looks great Eddie. Definitely a kid magnet.
Guy Buchanan
03-14-2017, 10:57 AM
One more tip:
Unless you plan to do a lot of polishing on your engine, etc., I'd throw money at the gear and send it out to a polisher. The one I used here in San Diego was quite reasonable. (Didn't do the gear, but a bunch of stuff on the engine.) Make sure they understand what surfaces need to be maintained for mating, threads, etc. as they can remove a not-insignificant amount of metal.
OK, that Pic belongs in Kitplane Magazine or Sport Aviation Magazine. Thats far more work than I am interested in doing. I could just pay to have the gear polished but then I would have nothing to share with my friends about how my hands still feel odd after working with the orbital polisher for 5 hours. :D
The cabin heater fans have three wires each. Black, red, white. the manual says you don't use the white. I have a switch that has "high off low". That is the same switch that McBean uses. I want both fans to run at the same time and at the same speed but I want a high fan speed and a low fan speed. Can anyone enlighten me? How is this achievable with only two wires from each fan motor? I am wondering if I achieve it by having the vertical power box push out slightly more power when I switch to high. I have a huge learning curve to tackle when it comes to this electrical stuff. :(
jiott
03-15-2017, 09:48 AM
Why not keep it simple and wire it so "low" runs one fan at high speed and "high" runs both fans at high speed. That's what I think most of us have done and it works great. Wiring is simple and uses two wires from each fan.
Ill answer that.... i thought because of that air deflector I would be getting lots of warm air to one or the other persons feet while the other guy has cold feet. I would have to turn both fans on to warm both people and at high flow only. Maybe I have given too much credit to that little air deflector. Sounds like its not really doing that great a job since you say I can keep it simple and have good results. If thats how its done I can do that, no problem. Thanks Jim.
Av8r_Sed
03-15-2017, 02:26 PM
Typical computer fans with three wires have the white wire as a tachometer/ speed sensor feedback. The speed is controlled by varying the voltage on the red wire either on an analog basis or more commonly for computers by pulse width modulation (PWM). I'm not sure the capabilities of the Vertical Power box but I'll guess it doesn't have variable voltage or PWM built in. There are a lot of ways to skin this cat varying from simple (electrically inefficient) to sophisticated and less power hungry.
If you know any hobbiest with a variable DC power supply you could experiment to find the best voltage for your low setting. That would help in developing a simple approach.
Thanks Paul
For anyone interested I Youtube "The simplest way to reduce fan speed". He made it look absolutely simple. Then I watched a couple more... the first didn't use a heat sink on the voltage regulator and I seen another that states the regulators can get really hot and need a heat sink. OK, too scary for me to get involved with this since I am not knowledgable in this arena. If I just did what the first guy shows then I could have a fire on my hands. I called John M and found out that they do it as Jim states. Question resolved.
Eddie
I am fixing to close the razor back. the angle on the leading edge where the turtle deck meets the fuselage requires " body fill" or something like that according to the manual. It suggests it to make it look "finished". Does someone have a pic of that so I know what it is supposed to look like when finished. I suppose if someone can describe it that would be fine also. I assume I am just putting something like super fill in the ends to close out the triangular gap that is at both ends?
Eddie
Good 8 hours on the plane today.. Oratex fabric work to include the difficult corner leading up to the vertical stab. Not easily done but accomplished the job on the first try without having built a mock up to practice on or anything. Now, it doesn't appear to have been done by a professional fabric shop but "I" did it myself and I am OK with how it turned out. Unfortunately the overlap of the fabric shows pretty well underneath the reinforcement tape and I didn't labor over making the edge of that fabric entirely straight but what the heck, Im not looking for it to be judged at any airshow or anything. It will get me to wherever I wish to go in the country this way!
jrevens
03-25-2017, 08:37 PM
Looks good, Eddie! You're really making good progress.
Cherrybark
03-30-2017, 08:27 PM
That is just an outstanding job fitting Oratex tape around a concave curve. I'll be getting in touch for techniques when the time arrives. Unless John has already covered the topic in his coming book!
jrevens
03-30-2017, 10:53 PM
That is just an outstanding job fitting Oratex tape around a concave curve. I'll be getting in touch for techniques when the time arrives. Unless John has already covered the topic in his coming book!
You're gonna' be waiting a long time for that book, Carl!
Paul Z
03-31-2017, 07:10 PM
Aww come on John, I bet you'd sell at least 10 copies just on the forum! I'll buy one, get writing, it shouldn't take too long. :D
The manual does not list the torque for the landing gear mounting bolts. Has anyone called John and asked? This is the Conventional mounting AN6-46A with a AN365-624 nut I believe. The figure is depicting the Tricycle mounting but I believe the nut is the same just a longer bolt.
So, I referred to my sport air workshop notes. I cut the coax as I was instructed. Watching the homebuilders hints on EAA website he shows how the pin should be almost flush with the white insulator. Mine is deeper and I cant run my fingernail across it and touch it. Anybody have a different reference for cutting the RG400 type coax. This will be my third waisted pin, and unless I can purchase just the pins I have got to replace the entire connector again. My notes state Cut back the insulation 5/8 inch, leave braid 5/16 inch, White part should be 15/32 out from the insulation and the wire for the pin 5/32 inch long. My pin seems too short and I am unsure if its going to work. Any different reference material I can try?
jrevens
04-01-2017, 03:31 PM
The manual does not list the torque for the landing gear mounting bolts. Has anyone called John and asked? This is the Conventional mounting AN6-46A with a AN365-624 nut I believe. The figure is depicting the Tricycle mounting but I believe the nut is the same just a longer bolt.
I tightened mine to 190 in. lbs. Eddie. That should be a good value for those 3/8"-24 bolts.
jrevens
04-01-2017, 03:41 PM
So, I referred to my sport air workshop notes. I cut the coax as I was instructed. Watching the homebuilders hints on EAA website he shows how the pin should be almost flush with the white insulator. Mine is deeper and I cant run my fingernail across it and touch it. Anybody have a different reference for cutting the RG400 type coax. This will be my third waisted pin, and unless I can purchase just the pins I have got to replace the entire connector again. My notes state Cut back the insulation 5/8 inch, leave braid 5/16 inch, White part should be 15/32 out from the insulation and the wire for the pin 5/32 inch long. My pin seems too short and I am unsure if its going to work. Any different reference material I can try?
Here is a reference sheet that should be helpful. The connectors I used were what SteinAir sold me and recommended for my RG-400. This sheet shows a different connector for that type cable, but the guy there told me that they have used them on hundreds of antenna installations with RG-400, with no problems.
jmodguy
04-01-2017, 06:22 PM
For the BNC, you will have to buy a new connector. If it is a solder on pin you may be able to re-use it. If crimp no. Looks like you already crimped the shield ferrule so the connector is already toast.
Before you cut anything - find the manufacturer and the part number and get the assembly instructions for "this specific connector".
I have been working with various RF connectors for over 30 years and there are differences. If you are a novice and do not know how to determine the proper length of cuts, the manufacturers instructions are the only way to go.
Another thing you should try is to put it all together before you crimp or solder anything. You can get an idea if things are going to line up proper.
If you have any specific questions shoot me an IM
As for the bolt torque, there are standard torques for bolts. If you know the bolt type, diameter, and thread pitch it's basically a look up.
So, I referred to my sport air workshop notes. I cut the coax as I was instructed. Watching the homebuilders hints on EAA website he shows how the pin should be almost flush with the white insulator. Mine is deeper and I cant run my fingernail across it and touch it. Anybody have a different reference for cutting the RG400 type coax. This will be my third waisted pin, and unless I can purchase just the pins I have got to replace the entire connector again. My notes state Cut back the insulation 5/8 inch, leave braid 5/16 inch, White part should be 15/32 out from the insulation and the wire for the pin 5/32 inch long. My pin seems too short and I am unsure if its going to work. Any different reference material I can try?
Thanks John and Jeff
I found the torques for an AN6 bolt but the 3/8ths threw me. But John, your torque matches what I found. As it turns out, the pin has a shoulder that prevents it from sticking out the other end too far. I slipped the pin into the connector and found it will only go to where I have mine so Im good. Thank you two for your replies. The aircraft spruce avionics guy sold these to me for the RG-400 coax so Im satisfied I have the correct stuff.
Eddie
jrevens
04-01-2017, 08:23 PM
Hey Eddie,
I hope I'm not worrying you unnecessarily, but it appears (at least in your picture) that the pin is not fully seated. BNC connectors have standard dimensions in that regard so that they mate properly with others. It sounds like your dimensions on the stripping are close to what my connectors require, but not exactly the same. If your connectors are made by Amphenol (a well known & common brand) then the chart I posted will have the exact dimensions needed, as well as installation instructions. When you insert the pin (which has been crimped or soldered) you will feel a definite "click" as it seats. You just may not have pushed it in all the way, but since you crimped it, as it was pointed out, you'll have to start over with a new one again. :(
Here is a picture of one of mine - it may not be evident in the picture, but the pin does come up almost level with the end of the plastic insulator.
No John, your not unnecessarily worrying me. I need this input if this thing is going to end without problems. Click? Hmmm, I don't seem to get that indicator. I put an empty pin into the connector and pushed down on it with a punch to see if it would seat but It just falls back out. I don't know how hard I am going to have to push if I am expecting a click. It appears your connector is of higher quality machining so I am certain mine are not the same manufacture. I have a couple more connections to make so I am going to ruin one more of these things before I just pay Aircraft Spruce to make them. Or maybe I will find a different BNC connector to purchase. I really want to do some of this wiring myself. I already have AS&S making wiring harness for me. Probably a damn good thing too. :o
Thanks for help.
Eddie
jmodguy
04-02-2017, 06:01 AM
John is correct. The pin should come flush with the end of the teflon insulator. Your connector will likely not work or be intermittent at best. If this is on a radio transmitter you need a good solid connection or you could burn up the transmitter.
Some pins will "click" when the pin sets, some do not. Newer ones typically do. When you put the pin in does it fall through or stop? If it stops, then you should expect a click if you push hard enough. It may take a bit of a push to get it to seat.
If you just set the pin in the connector (no cable attached) the back edge of the pin should set flush to a "shelf" on the inside of the insulator. This shelf is there to allow for the diameter of the cable insulation. If the rear surface of the pin is not flush with this shelf, the pin is not seated. I think this is where your issue is.
Can you take a pic of the piece parts and post here?
Thank You both.
I was able to make one good connector of four. I had to push pretty damn hard to get the "click". Now on to order three more connectors. Thought I would get some from the computer/electronics store today. What a PIA. Too many different types of BNC. I bought one only to find out that the wire on my RG400 is too large to fit into the pin. several strands just curled up and would not go into the pin. I got the RG58 type connector but AS&S 's connector is specifically for RG400 I noticed. Live and learn. I suppose this is the education part of the FAA's reg on Homebuilding for education and recreational purpose. You two really helped and I am grateful. Im sure Carl is reading too and will benefit also If he hasn't done this before.
Eddie
John, As it turns out my BNC connector is an Amphenol RF 112514. Interesting thing is, it is not machined as clean as yours. I was able to find a BNC that looks exactly like yours but it was a different part number.
I was able to download the PDF for the cuts. We will see how it goes.
Eddie
So I decided to mount the GPS antenna immediately above the radio stack. This decision caused me to require a 90 degree TNC connector beneath the antenna. Joy was, this connector costs $51. I had AS&S make this cable since I wasn't going to risk learning how to cut this cable to accommodate the connector. I learned enough with the standard BNC connectors. ;)
David47
04-10-2017, 04:32 AM
I think that's a good judgement call Eddie, to let someone else make up the cable. Like you, I'm happy to learn as much as I can but sometimes it's better to let someone else slip in the seat and drive the bus a few yards along the journey ....
Finally got the primer job done to the inside of the wing spars. Mixed up far more primer than necessary now expensive waste to discard. I will say though, it coated the inside very well. It was a bit messy. Fortunately I laid plastic down on the epoxy floor. All the spar riveting leads to some leakage of the alcohol and primer. The tennis balls are fairly good at wicking some material out as well.
I discovered that my concern for cutting material off the bolt of Oratex in order to cover the horizontal was warranted. I have an 11ft panel of fabric that obviously wont cover one surface of a wing. I was not aware of the pattern that is suggested for cutting the fabric to minimize waste. I should have just covered the wings first instead of heeding the advice to cover a smaller part first. Had I done that, I would have realized the remnant pieces from the wing were sufficient to cover the stab. I know the manual advised that one should do that but I forgot when I cut the stab fabric first.
I have included a pic of the brake line. Does anyone care to remark on whether they think this is an ill advised route. Seems it could hang up on a bush or something. Should I bend up a piece of pipe to make it stronger?
The other pic is the fabric all glued and ready to apply to the wing.
Eddie
Floog
04-26-2017, 05:36 PM
Nice progress! I like the look of your polished? gear. My brake line is configured exactly like yours. After 1,000 hours of driving through a lot of s--t, no problems whatsoever.
DesertFox4
04-26-2017, 06:09 PM
Eddie, you should be fine with that routing of the brake line as Floog mentioned. If concerned, just make another spare and carry it when you go backcountry or off airport flying. Might take a little container of brake fluid also.
Another option is to make braided stainless lines but likely not needed.;)
Cherrybark
04-26-2017, 06:46 PM
Starting to look like an airplane. And I like how you captured that little glint of sunlight on the polished landing gear.
Esser
04-27-2017, 05:34 PM
Our planes will look ying and yang beside each other unless one of us adds some colour Eddie! Looking good!
:) Yellow nose and tail are coming. Ive seen others with similar paint schemes already. In fact one of the most recent Kitfoxs that have been posted here for sale has a quite similar scheme. Im not copying exactly but I am doing a similar one as others have. I have apologized for nearly replicating the panel of the SS7 that John and Deborah took to Airventure 2016 but That airplane is awesome and I just want one like it.
Eddie
David47
04-27-2017, 08:13 PM
Starting look the real deal Eddie. Nice. Pity about the Oratex. Hope you can get additional without too much of a delay.
Though I am months away from doing the work, I happen to be thinking about it since I sanded smooth the lift strut fairings. When I am fitting the fairings, I assume I have to have the lift struts installed since I will be trimming the fairings at the bottom to accommodate the folding of the wings. Is that correct?
I assume then I will install the fairings then have to remove the wings to remove the struts for paint right?
Eddie
jiott
05-01-2017, 09:50 PM
Technically I guess its best to have the wings and lift struts mounted on the plane in order to properly trim the fairings to allow folding the wings. Trim a little, try folding, trim a little more, try again, etc. However, I used a little more risky method but it worked out fine. I used the photo below of a factory SLSA that showed the trimmed fairing quite well. The fairing is trimmed almost to the steel strut down by the attach bolt. Then it tapers to nothing up at about 30" from the bolt. Don't take my 30" for gospel because I am going by memory. At the time I had an accurate measurement, but it has since been lost. Maybe someone else has an accurate number for the SS7, or I will try to remember to measure it next time I am at the hangar. I did this tapering trim in one swoop and luckily it fit fine.
jrevens
05-01-2017, 11:16 PM
I had the same concern, so I asked Judd (with Kitfox) when I was at OSH a couple of years ago. He told me that the dimension he used was 38"- 40" from the center of the bolt hole to the end of the tapered cut. He said that he always did them before mounting on the airplane. That's how I'm doing mine. If anyone can measure how long theirs is from the center of the bolt hole, it would be interesting to hear.
jiott
05-02-2017, 09:35 AM
Thanks John, I figured someone would chime in with accurate information.
Its much easier doing this way. Its a pain to mount the wings and struts for the only purpose of trimming the fairings.
JohnB
05-02-2017, 01:25 PM
I had the same concern, so I asked Judd (with Kitfox) when I was at OSH a couple of years ago. He told me that the dimension he used was 38"- 40" from the center of the bolt hole to the end of the tapered cut. He said that he always did them before mounting on the airplane. That's how I'm doing mine. If anyone can measure how long theirs is from the center of the bolt hole, it would be interesting to hear.
Mine is 34" from center of bolt hole to end of taper. That gives me about 1/4" clearance from the fairing to fuselage side when folded.
Thanks for all the input. I suppose the difference between 34" and 40" is not a big deal since the greater distance would just mean more clearance when folded. It would not even be aesthetically different I guess while in flight position. It would mean at 40" you would just need to fill and sand the larger gap but no big deal. Thanks a bunch. Maybe I'll split the difference. That should ensure Im clear of the fuselage when folded.
Eddie
Floog
05-02-2017, 06:01 PM
From the archives.
Wow Floog, thanks for that. I am glad I asked.
Eddie
jrevens
05-02-2017, 08:37 PM
I'm really glad to see these responses too, Eddie. I haven't cut mine yet, and I want to do it right also. Don't want to cut anymore than needed. Floog - is that on a Series 5 - 7 airframe?
jiott
05-02-2017, 09:03 PM
Way to go TeamKitfox!!
Floog
05-03-2017, 06:57 AM
I used those dimensions on my 7SS. Airfox (Scott) gave it to me 3 years ago. I don't remember where he got it. But when folded, the struts almost kiss the fabric! A dimension I think might help is from the center of the hole to the start of the cut at the wing tip end: mine is 30 1/2".
jrevens
05-03-2017, 09:28 PM
I used those dimensions on my 7SS. Airfox (Scott) gave it to me 3 years ago. I don't remember where he got it. But when folded, the struts almost kiss the fabric! A dimension I think might help is from the center of the hole to the start of the cut at the wing tip end: mine is 30 1/2".
That's great, and I agree Floog. I was able to measure that distance (center of hole to start of tapered cut at the outer end) on 2 other airplanes today. On a Series 5 it only measured 25"... but I've never seen those wings folded to see if that is sufficient or not, and the owner wasn't around... knowing the airplane, the wings may have never been folded. On a Mod. IV Speedster I measured 34". I think that the 38-40" that I was told might be excessive, although it's possible that the required cut may vary a little from example to example. Anyway, I think that your dimension is probably a good average. I think that I will probably do mine somewhere around the 34" mark. The difference in looks is minimal, in my opinion, between the 30 to 40" range.
Esser
05-04-2017, 08:12 AM
This is a timely post as I'm just sanding the extrusion lines out of my strut fairings
Hope your enjoying the process more than I did Josh. Boring!
Eddie
jiott
05-05-2017, 10:25 AM
Just measured my strut fairing dimension from bolt center to outer end of taper is 35". Its more than enough to clear the fabric when folded.
David47
05-06-2017, 08:19 AM
Thanks from me too Jim, John and Floog. Not at this point yet but taking notes .....
I believe it would be very difficult but not impossible so I ask...
On the bottom of the fuel tank, is anyone lacing the one rib that is attached to the bottom of the fuel tank. Horse Shoe needle required? But I don't really know exactly where I glued the capstrip to the the tank and I don't know that its necessary on the positive pressure side of the wing. It is in the propwash area though so I don't know. I don't know if I want to risk having a DAR tell me after the fact.
Eddie
OK, the dimples that were evident in the previous photo at the trailing edge of all the bottom false ribs was annoying. It was not the evident in person. I had glued all the ribs to attach the Oratex in spite of being told it was not necessary. Anyhow, as a testament to the forgiveness factor of Oratex I used a suction cup and a heat gun to release the fabric from the false ribs. Wha-la. I have other examples as well.:)
jiott
05-06-2017, 04:55 PM
Yes I rib stitched the fabric to the rib on the bottom of the tanks. But I knew ahead of time that I wanted to do this, so when I glued the rib to the tank bottom I made sure my little spacer blocks didn't interfere with my stitching layout pattern. The actual stitching required a small curved needle I made out of some SS safety wire. I used individual stitches at each point, rather than try to daisy-chain them all together. Was not too difficult.
Whether its really required on the positive pressure bottom of the wing I don't know, but since they tell you to do it on the non-tank area of the wing I figured might as well carry it all the way. Besides, who knows, maybe someday I will fly inverted on purpose or not.
Ah nuts....
Lars, from Better Aircraft Fabrics stated that the Oratex glue is so strong that lacing would not be required anyplace on the wing. As the Kitfox manual states that with one inch wide cap strips it used to not be necessary but they and PolyFiber recommend it. Hmm. I can flex the cap strip where they support underneath is nonexistent, so I can put some in but I will have to accept odd spacing Im sure once I start doing it and run into the spacers. I believe I have two in there.
jrevens
05-06-2017, 06:40 PM
I didn't lace that rib, Eddie... just the tail end behind the tank. For some reason my tanks didn't allow anything but capstrip (very few, thin spacers) to be level with the other ribs, so it was not possible for me anyway. If yours is like mine, you have a little more glued surface area at the leading edge because of the Laker leading edge also. I have seen a few very nice Kitfox aircraft that the builders admitted they didn't actually lace that entire rib, but they made it look like they did by using short little pieces of cord glued to the surface... fake stitches. I didn't do that... just glued the fabric down good with that super-duper Oratex glue. I flew in a Mod. IV once that had 100 hp and no rib lacing at all. It had quite a few hours on it, and the covering seemed to be doing just fine... it was actually a little loose in my opinion, and you could see it billowing a little as we flew, pulling against the glued areas. I wasn't so sure I liked that, but I guess it had been flown like that for a long time. :eek:
Thanks John. I didnt use the Laker LE but I have glued to the false ribs and I am aware many people dont. I believe that billowing would not be chanege with lacing but in our case with Oratex another heat shrink would improve that. Ill admit I have employed the Faux stitch on a couple spot that I put holes under where the flapperon bracket belongs and therefore would not get a stitch. I simply was trying to avoid having empty holes visible under the UL600 tapes. :)
David47
05-06-2017, 10:54 PM
I'd really like to know the peel strength of a glue holding fabric down before I decided not to rib stitch. Consider rib stitching as the belt that holds the pants up if the breeches snap ...... That's not to say you need to do it everywhere. On the positive pressure side where you're talking about, you can probably get away with it. On the suction side, not so sure ... just saying.
jrevens
05-06-2017, 11:35 PM
I'd really like to know the peel strength of a glue holding fabric down before I decided not to rib stitch. Consider rib stitching as the belt that holds the pants up if the breeches snap ...... That's not to say you need to do it everywhere. On the positive pressure side where you're talking about, you can probably get away with it. On the suction side, not so sure ... just saying.
Not to keep hogging Eddie's thread here, but I agree David. As I believe and have stated on this forum, I don't know why anyone wouldn't rib stitch their Kitfox... it takes a relatively small amount of time and is good insurance. When this subject comes up, I always remember how & why Steve Wittman died when the wing fabric on his airplane came loose. It was not laced to the ribs.
John, dont ever hesitate to reply in my threads. Your input is one among others that I wait patiently for.
David, the peel strength for the Oratex glue is reportedly in excess of 100#per sq inch. I can say that I'm not able to pull it off even the narrow false rib with out heating it to over 300 degrees to soften the glue. I was told that it is somewhere around three times the strength of the Polyfiber product. I cant say I have even heard what air over the top side of a wing is capable of exerting.
Eddie
mr bill
05-07-2017, 12:34 PM
I do not have numbers, but the Stewart Systems (really 3M I think) is very strong in tension or peel and many times stronger in shear.
jiott
05-07-2017, 04:14 PM
Just a couple of comments FWIW: Remember the peel strength of the fabric glue is to the VARNISH on the ribs, not to the bare wood. You are not only relying on the fabric to varnish bond, but also on the varnish to wood bond-whichever is weaker. Also, the bottom surface of the wing is slightly undercambered, putting a constant tension trying to pull the fabric away from the ribs. I like the insurance and peace of mind given by rib-stitching.
jiott
05-07-2017, 04:26 PM
Eddie, several pages back you were asking about brake line routing at the wheels. I finally remembered to snap a picture of mine. Very similar to yours but a little different, maybe a little less tubing to get caught on brush etc.
Ok Jim, Thanks for that pic. I wasn't sure having it that tight it might end up kinking but I see it works. I will likely tighten my route up too then.
Eddie
Can anyone advise on this issue. I may be missing it in the FWF manual but, How is the bottom of the firewall secured. All I see that is attaching the FW is the Five bolts at the front. The firewall at the bottom covers the the front landing gear mount bushings so I am assuming that the gear would secure it but I have a tail dragger. I am not sure how one would put a bolt through those bushings since the wood floor is installed and the top side where a nut would be installed is not really accessible.
Eddie
Just noticed, I need to apply my reinforcement tape there at the leading edge of the frame.
jiott
05-30-2017, 10:44 AM
Eddie, I had the same concern when I built mine. I ended up just over-bending (a little more than 90 degrees) that piece of the FW that goes on the bottom so it would tend to stay tightly up against the frame without any fasteners to secure it. It has worked well for 4 years now. I know of some others who figured out a way of putting a couple of fasteners in; maybe they will chime in.
Thanks Jim, I think that will work.
Eddie
Dave S
05-30-2017, 11:10 AM
Eddie,
I don't think any provisions were ever designed in to fasten the lower panel down. The idea of the previous poster to increase the bend past 90 degrees will help a lot.
Also, notice that the two holes behind the lip in the center of the fuselage have another pair of holes just under the lip where a person could insert bolts with fender washers (or similar fabricated doubler) to clamp up the edge. These 4 holes - two behind and two under the edge are for trigear applications where a bearing block is bolted up on each side - with the trigear, the bearing blocks hold the bottom of the firewall lip tightly. If you have a tailwheel - those holes are not used for anything else and could certainly be used to resolve the clamp up issue of the firewall lip.
rosslr
05-30-2017, 03:14 PM
Eddie, I did as Dave suggests - not sure if it is all that important but just liked the idea of it being secured.
r
N213RV
06-02-2017, 01:14 PM
I bonded a ~1/2" thick x 1.5" oak strip to the bottom of the floorboards. I then drilled and installed threaded inserts into the wood and used #8 machine screws to secure the lower firewall flange to the bottom of the plane. Worked great and looks great.
Hmm, I like that. Thanks Mike
Eddie
jmodguy
06-04-2017, 04:33 PM
EFWD
The process to secure the lower flap of the firewall is in the FW forward kit instructions. 14 pieces are to be cut from PN 42918.000. 42918.000 profile view is a semi-circle with a tab. These are glued to the 2nd cross tube and the flap is then pop-riveted to these tabs.
At least that is how my Lycoming FW forward manual describes it. :D
Interesting. Ill have to call John or Debra. I put a good seven hours in today doing various tasks and the boot cowl/firewall was one of them. I was looking for the instructions for the final install of the boot cowl and I dont even find those. Im using nutplates for that anyhow but I may be missing pages. Nothing like that that you mention and nothing that Ive found on how the boot cowl is installed finally.
I have been making slow progress lately. Thought I would send out something for you guys to follow. Fabricated some U-channel with nut plates to secure the firewall bottom. Not so happy with how much time I spent but happy with the results. All in the name of recreation I suppose.
Was not too excited to tackle cutting into the boot cowl but I fashioned up a template for the opening and did a fairly decent job with a Dremel cutoff wheel. Ok, not perfect but Im happy with the way they turned out. My girlfriend really wanted to get her hands dirty when she seen me putting Poly Fill on and wanted to help so... Anyhow, her Fill fell out when I went at it with a sander. LOL. She tried. Got to luv having someone who not only supports the hobby but would like to assist. My boys only do that when I force them. ;)
DesertFox4
06-11-2017, 02:13 PM
NACA and boot cowl look good Eddie.
Thanks Steve. I keep hearing your advice when it comes to the cowls. I cant recall what you told me to watch out for regarding the engine cowl. I will probably make it back to Gilbert before I go to that so I will have a chance to ask again. I think I will be starting the second wing this week. I need to ask John M. about doing the wind screen before hanging the engine. Not sure if thats advised. I haven't done any of the camlocks on the firewall yet and I don't really want to have the engine on while doing the wiring of the panel.
Eddie
jrevens
06-12-2017, 09:04 AM
That looks real nice, Eddie! I like the way you finished the edges of that portion of the firewall.
I think that having the engine in place can be helpful when determining wire routing from the panel. Of course it also needs to be there when you are fitting the cowl and installing the Camlocks. I think it's a good idea to leave the windshield off until you are through working behind the panel, as per the manual. That doesn't mean you couldn't fit it before that, but you don't want to have to handle taking it on & off any more than necessary, IMO.
Thanks John. No reason I couldn't wait to do the wind screen. I like that its still all tucked away in the box and safe. Phil Laker told me that the Acrylic is really fragile and he recommends leaving in the sun to warm up before handling it. I guess I will move on to something else. I have a wing that needs work.
Eddie
When installing Fuel Lines, the manual has you using hose clamps. These fuel lines on the firewall have fire sleeves covering them. would I use one clamp to secure the fire sleeve as well as the fuel line onto the fitting? Or, would I use one clamp on the fuel line then another one to secure the fire sleeve? Can't imagine why one clamp couldn't do all the work but I don't want a DAR to tell me otherwise late in the game. Just heading to Aircraft Spruce so I may have to buy more clamps.
Eddie
jrevens
06-17-2017, 10:12 AM
When installing Fuel Lines, the manual has you using hose clamps. These fuel lines on the firewall have fire sleeves covering them. would I use one clamp to secure the fire sleeve as well as the fuel line onto the fitting? Or, would I use one clamp on the fuel line then another one to secure the fire sleeve? Can't imagine why one clamp couldn't do all the work but I don't want a DAR to tell me otherwise late in the game. Just heading to Aircraft Spruce so I may have to buy more clamps.
Eddie
You don't clamp them both with the same clamp. Clamp the hose, then secure the end of the fire sleeve, preferably with an all-metal S.S."zip tie". There are relatively expensive ones made for the task, but I found & used some from Home Depot that are very reasonably priced.
Thank you John. I figured that would be a bad idea but the fittings that kitfox send seam to be more automotive and when you look up how to install them they aren't clamping them at all while the nice anodized aluminum sleeve seems to be doing some of the rention without it being crimped at all. I guess you just toss those things in the trash. I went to the airport and ran into the Rotax repair hanger and got a chance to look at some of his work. So fortunate to live with so much in my back yard. Yeh, yeh, the traffic sucks.
Eddie
Im installing the 912is fuel system. The supplement for this is written with slightly less detail as the Kitfox manual. Before I drill holes I was hoping someone might have a photo of their 912is Fire wall. It seems I will be needing to drill holes in the fire wall to mount the fuel manifold/filter assy. Does this look to be the correct location. There are no predrilled holes as there are with all the other stuff. Im not real comfortable with where I have it currently as I am not sure it will clear the cables that will be going through the fire wall in the square hole immediately above. Thanks
Eddie
rosslr
06-17-2017, 04:25 PM
Hi Eddie,
I have the 912is and will take a photo later today - however, I think I positioned the fuel filter assembly on the firewall immdeiately below the surface you have it on currently - I should be about 4 hours until I post the pic.
cheers
ross
Thank You so much Ross.
Eddie
rosslr
06-17-2017, 04:52 PM
Eddie - just found these on file - it gives you an idea of the position i used. I will take a few more shortly when I go to the hanger - anything specific you want a photo of apart from the position of the fuel filter assembly?
cheers
ross
rosslr
06-17-2017, 06:09 PM
HI again Eddie,
just back from taking photos of the fuel setup - they give no more detail than the one already posted so I wont duplicate. So, I mounted the coarse filter where you have it and used the predrilled holes. I positioned the fine filter and manifold to directly below where you have it at present in the photo - on the same part of the firewall as the fuel pumps - let me know if you want more specific photos.
cheers
ross
very helpful Ross. Thank You very much. I don't believe I need anything beyond that right now.
Eddie
jrevens
06-17-2017, 08:57 PM
Thank you John. I figured that would be a bad idea but the fittings that kitfox send seam to be more automotive and when you look up how to install them they aren't clamping them at all while the nice anodized aluminum sleeve seems to be doing some of the rention without it being crimped at all. I guess you just toss those things in the trash. I went to the airport and ran into the Rotax repair hanger and got a chance to look at some of his work. So fortunate to live with so much in my back yard. Yeh, yeh, the traffic sucks.
Eddie
I didn't know you were talking about that kind of fitting Eddie, but those are designed specifically for Aeroquip Push-Lock socketless type hose, and when used with the proper kind of hose they don't require any clamps. The anodized sleeves are just cosmetic - they clean-up the look and hide the end of the hose. If used with any other kind of hose they do require clamps to maintain the pressure rating of the assembly.
Thanks John. Kitfox sends these but they want me to clamp them so I guess they are sending some other type of hose. I can tell you, I tried to remove a hose awhile ago and i could not pull it off. Its like a Chinese finger trap I think. Anyhow, I am clamping. I went to Home Depot and couldnt locate the SS bands. I will have to wait till Monday to go to Mcfadden N Dale Hardware for those. The build is getting serious now as I am being asked to run Wire. Not looking forward to that. Hopefully my Vertical Power will keep me from going Mad
Eddie
The fitting on the bottom is tightened by hand. Of course if I tighten it down securely with a wrench it will be pointing to the side and therefore not accommodate the rigid fuel line connection. Does one just start replacing fittings in these circumstances? I have switched to another 90 degree with the same results.
Second question. How many people have replaced hard fuel lines with flexible stuff, maybe steel braided. Fitting and bending is not the easiest thing in the world.
jiott
06-19-2017, 07:52 PM
Two possible solutions: First, if that is only hand tight you can probably get another 7/8 turn with a wrench; if not then: Second, get a proper size pipe tap and just slightly deepen the pipe thread in the brass fitting.
Didn't think of that. Thanks Jim
Eddie
Trying to configure my VPX and account for all the amp draw in the system. Does anyone know the amp draw on each of the fan motors in the cabin heater? I will have to remove them to see the data sticker unless someone knows. SS7
Thanks
Eddie
jrevens
07-06-2017, 11:42 PM
I can't see mine either, but typically 12v brushless fans of that type and size (120mm) draw somewhere around 0.3 amps, but it could be considerably more.
Cherrybark
07-07-2017, 05:40 AM
Finally, an opportunity to offer a helpful tidbit while trailing some six months behind you. If the blue label on this fan looks familiar, they draw 0.38 Amps.
Thank You Gentlemen. Not looking forward to dealing with all the spaghetti but I must start planning it out I guess. :confused:
jiott
07-07-2017, 09:31 AM
Eddie, if its any help to you, I was also very intimidated by the wiring part of the project. Once you have the overall schematic figured out (for that part I used examples from Van's RV-12, other Kitfoxes, knowledgeable friends) the rest of the detail wiring is just like eating an elephant-one small wire at a time. Every electrical component comes with specific wiring instructions, including amp draw and usually even recommended wire sizes. Just tackle one component at a time, one wire at a time, using temporary small zip ties to keep the bundles neat, and pretty soon it is done! Wire as much of the backside of the panel as you can on the bench before installing it in the airplane. Your use of the Vertical Power VPX will simplify things more than a conventional system.
The Van's RV-12 complete schematic can be downloaded from their website and I found it quite helpful, since they were also using the Dynon Skyview system just like me.
Thanks Jim. After seeing the pin out displayed for me after I populated the information it seems a bit easier. The VPX is answering most all the questions so Im pleased. Unfortunately my cool little LED starter switch cant be lit up with the VPX. SO, Im looking for the same switch Kitfox used in one of their SLSA. They are out of supply and apparently all those who carry that switch with the protective shroud are out of supply as well. I have to make the shroud I geuss.
Eddie
Paul Z
07-08-2017, 08:54 AM
Very good recommendation. Most components are pretty darn simple. If you attack them component by component, hooking most of them up is a lot simpler than you can imagine. I must admit of you look at the wire bundles it look intimidating. Hook up just one item at a time.
Eddie, if its any help to you, I was also very intimidated by the wiring part of the project. Once you have the overall schematic figured out (for that part I used examples from Van's RV-12, other Kitfoxes, knowledgeable friends) the rest of the detail wiring is just like eating an elephant-one small wire at a time. Every electrical component comes with specific wiring instructions, including amp draw and usually even recommended wire sizes. Just tackle one component at a time, one wire at a time, using temporary small zip ties to keep the bundles neat, and pretty soon it is done! Wire as much of the backside of the panel as you can on the bench before installing it in the airplane. Your use of the Vertical Power VPX will simplify things more than a conventional system.
The Van's RV-12 complete schematic can be downloaded from their website and I found it quite helpful, since they were also using the Dynon Skyview system just like me.
Well, it has been six or seven months since I had the EAA tech counselor visit. Dave Prizio of Kitplane Magazine is my counselor and will be my DAR when all finished. He visited today and thankfully he said it was looking really good. Some encouraging words from him now has me thinking I need to be preparing for my vacation request next year to get current and checked out in the tailwheel with Stick and Rudder. It seems I will be flying next year. :D
Some of the latest work I have done attached.
Eddie
Oh yeh, I ended up picking up some Black Acetal Copolymer rod and fabricating my own starter button shroud. I had to do it twice since the first time it was a bit off center. I could only find aluminum shroud with a nurled edge and it was $7 with $7 shipping. I bought the rod for about $3
David47
07-11-2017, 04:31 AM
Some great progress Eddie. It must be satisfying to start getting these systems installed. Cant wait until I get to the same stage. Also, nice touch with the starter button assembly. Keep up the great work.
jrevens
07-12-2017, 09:25 PM
That all looks very good, Eddie! You're doing great!
Cherrybark
07-14-2017, 05:33 AM
I like the flat black joy sticks. Hadn't noticed that in earlier pictures.
What do you guys think about the aluminum tail wheel spring Kitfox has. I have the spring steel. For appearance reasons I am considering the aluminum. Does that one make a bit of difference outside of appearance?
Eddie
rosslr
08-06-2017, 03:29 PM
Hi Eddie,
that is looking good! I see you got the fuel filters figured and positioned. It looks really neat. It will be interesting to see how you arrange all the oil and coolant hoses too. Are you fitting an oil thermostat?
nice feeling when you can see the finishing post!
cheers
r
Hi Ross
I called John M. about the filter cuz I am so fearful of doing something different than what the factory calls for. Inevitably I seem to not foresee something coming and I never like coming into difficulty. John did make me aware of the clearance of the engine mount so I was grateful for that. It definitely had me make adjustments.
Sounds like you have some knowledge of what I am up against regarding oil lines? I hope its not too troublesome. Routing things is kinda laborious. No fun.
If it didn't come in the FWF kit I have not considered it. The 912iS has a lot of sensors but as for a thermostat, I don't know.
Eddie
PaulSS
08-06-2017, 05:47 PM
Hi Eddie,
Since you're fitting a 912iS, might I recommend you have a look at the CAV13 Status Monitor from www.cambridgeavionics.com
No, I'm not advertising and have no connection with the company other than I've bought one of these because they look like great pieces of kit. I think it's very convenient to have an instrument that monitors all the outputs from the ECU and puts errors into plain language, instead of having to hook up diagnostic software because there's a Lane light on etc.
Also, there's a guy in the UK who has come up with a neat box of tricks that removes the requirement for the 912iS 'start battery' switch. Basically, instead of having to hold a momentary switch or flick on a toggle switch for start power, his unit connects the start circuit to the battery for 1 minute after it's triggered (normally by turning your key to the ignition position) and then it gets turned off automatically. He's figured out all the stuff with Rotax regarding the generators being on line at low RPM and not damaging circuits etc. So it really is a matter of key on, Lane switches on, fuel pumps on and press start. No mucking around with switches and juggling hands after start. Again, I'm not associated with the company but will definitely be installing one in my machine and only write this as you're going for the iS engine :)
rosslr
08-06-2017, 09:39 PM
Hi Eddie. I didn't mean to suggest you will have a problem - rather I just found it tight to get it all in there. The oil thermostat is an extra. I mounted it ( as others have) on a bracket that is attached to the lower engine mounts. I think given your fuel filter manifold that you would need to find another space for it . I was just interested where that might be, thats all.
The gear suggested by Paul is interesting - especially the monitor. I am looking into that to see if it will negate the need for the data download via the expensive rotax dongle each 100hrs.
cheers
r
Dang, I just cut my last hole in my panel. I may be able to squeeze that in. It will be kinda awkward placement but doable. I will email them to inquire. Thanks.
Eddie
OK, great Ross. Why did you (or how did you) come to the thermostat? If needed wonder why it isn't there already?
Eddie
rosslr
08-06-2017, 10:09 PM
Probably best to have a read of the lengthy posts on this under 'remote oil thermonstat' Eddie.
PaulSS
08-07-2017, 01:36 AM
Just in case you are looking at squeezing the status monitor into your panel, you'll need a standard 2.25" hole (or 57mm as we like to call them) and behind the panel you're looking at 82mm wide x 62mm high x 31mm deep. It's simply wired in parallel to your RDAC CAN and a normal power and ground. That's it :)
The manual gives a long list of the error messages it'll give you and having looked at the queries on the Rotax forum I reckon it's much more user-friendly than trying to diagnose through the diagnostics connector. The other thing I like is that the throttle position is part of the default screen, so good for starting (apparently). This sort of information is available in most of the EFIS diagnostic pages but you've got to go searching for it, rather than just having it there in front of you.
Are you going for a start power switch or have you got something else in mind?
I just have the starter switch that KF sent.
PaulSS
08-07-2017, 06:22 AM
I'm certainly not in a position to harp on about the starting of the 912iS because mine is still but a number in an order book. However, I have tested both systems (before I signed anything) and found the timer box to be a much better system. I think the start switch, be it a toggle switch that you have to turn on before and off after start or a spring-loaded switch that you have to hold on during start to be quite clumsy. While I'm pressing the start button and potentially adjusting the throttle, the last thing I want to be doing is trying to hold on a switch and turning off a toggle switch. While it's certainly not beyond the wit of man, it's hardly 21st Century.
With Steve's box there is no complicated wiring or special set ups. It literally replaces the start switch and can hide behind the panel. It can be fitted retrospectively but I'm going to fit it from day one. My set up will involve a key for selecting the battery from Off to Electrics On and then to Ignition. It will be that turn to Ignition that starts the one minute timer in the box and connects the battery to the Rotax fuse box for starting. With the Lane and fuel pumps on I'll just press the start button and will have a spare hand for the throttle (and won't have to remember to turn things off after start).
Anyway, I've probably said more than enough to extoll the virtues of his bit of kit. I think he's selling them for about £120 but don't quote me on that. Yep, more expensive than a switch but a hell of a lot less phaffing around.
Again, I DO NOT have any vested interest in the box other than I thought it's a good idea and I'll be chucking one in my machine.
Guy Buchanan
08-07-2017, 02:25 PM
I use the aluminum tailwheel "spring". It's purty, but not much of a spring. I've heard stories of breakage, and am not surprised, as it's dang stiff. Can't really recommend it for off-road use.
Cherrybark
08-07-2017, 02:35 PM
A remote oil thermostat huh? Once again I bless my lucky stars that Eddie and I have similar projects (Oratex, 912iS, Garmin,...), he is doing such a good job of documenting and discussing his build, and I am plodding a few months in his wake!
Honestly, Im not inclined to add things anymore. I have spent a crap load of money on what I have and dont regret it at all. I hold the key in the start position until ignition in my cars so I'll do the same in my plane as I always had when actively flying. I dont know what I would do with a free hand during start up anyhow.
Pretty happy to have Carl to bounce things around with.
Eddie
rosslr
08-07-2017, 03:01 PM
Hey Paul,
Thanks for introducing this discussion regarding the offerings from Cambridge - I have been looking at them. I like the Cav 13 BUT .... it is expensive and as a retro fit to my panel I will have trouble finding a spot for it - If I was starting from scratch i would definitely consider it. The $1000 for a Rotax dongle is just a plain and simple rip off from Rotax and should be included in with engine. If I can fit it to my panel I will do so in preference to purchasing the Rotax dongle!
As for the start module. I have over 300hrs on my 912is sport now and use the kit supplied spring toggle and start button. I remember taking some time to get the ergonomics right for this combo - so that it is really easy to use the first finger for the spring toggle to apply power for the Lane checks and then the thumb to hit the starter - very easy process. I set the throttle prior to this and is doesn't take long to know the right setting. The wiring wasn't very difficult. I don't think I would go with this one as I also have a bit of an aversion to the key starts in general given the stories I have heard about them failing. That said, the key start mechanism does give some added security.
Another thing I did that works well is to arrange my toggle switches in two rows. I have arranged the top row so that if I work from L to R this is the engine start sequence - makes it really easy.
By the way, where are you in WA? I am over there often. We are planning another trip next year to the Kimberleys and then down the coast back home - would be good to catch some time.
cheers
rosslr
08-07-2017, 03:15 PM
Hi Eddie,
Good thinking -Lot to be said for KISS. I must admit that the appeal of the Kitfox was the relative simplicity (when compared to the panel of my previous IFR Mooney). That said, its amazing what you can get on an Ipad these days! The best thing I did was to build it into the panel!
cheers
PaulSS
08-07-2017, 04:45 PM
Hi Ross,
PM inbound so I don't ruin Eddie's thread any more.
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