Pilots bill of rights

[TahoeTim]

It's on the president's desk and he will have to sign by Friday to fund the FAA. It looks like the gross weight of my S7 just went up to 1500 lb. woo- hoo

Now I just need the 6 seat option to take full advantage of the new rule :D

(I realize that the FAA has a year to enact the rule)

[efwd]

Hey TahoeTim
I haven't really followed the ruling. I thought the gross for an SS7 was 1550# anyhow. As an LSA it has to be 1320# for sport pilots to fly. That's what I was abiding by. Are you saying LSA's can gain weight in this ruling?
Eddie

[Av8r3400]

Some information on the medical reform bill, sitting on the presidents desk as of today.

AOPA (https://www.aopa.org/News-and-Media/All-News/2016/July/13/Senate-passes-medical-reform?utm_source=ePilot&utm_medium=Content&utm_content=adv&utm_campaign=160714epilot)

This is a reform to the medical rules for "private pilot" rated airmen. The "light sport" regulations remain unchanged.

[Dave S]

(I realize that the FAA has a year to enact the rule)

The one year provision to limit the lenght of time for rulemaking; while it might seems like another delaying tactic, is actually an important part of this legislation to assure that this actually gets done, particularily with the requirement that the legislation takes effect in one year if the rulemaking is not complete anyway.

In my working life, I had significant experience in following legislation and rulemaking at the federal level; and with actual rule making at the state level - and seeing first hand how things get done or become obstructed.

What I can tell you is without the one year limitation, the possibility would exist that parties opposed to the action could do a "plan B" and essentially obstruct completion of the action by finding ways to drag it out.

Our Alphabet soup representatives of the aviation community originally tried the tact of initiating a Citizens Petition to the executive branch (FAA) through simple rule making.....our aviation community representatives decided that would not work; and, wisely went the way of promoting the action through the legislative branch (Congress) with a proposal that could be supported by congress, including the limitation on rulemaking.

I won't identify the federal agency, (other than it was not the FAA) nor the constituiency (was not the aviation community); however, I personally observed an industry sponsored Citizen's Petition proposal via rulemaking, rather than legislation, languish for so long that people involved retired from their jobs, others died of old age most forgot all about it because there was no hard/real deadline via that process.

In another case, I observed legislation that was passed; but the legislation had no "takes affect by a certain date if rulemaking is not done" clause. I don't have to tell you what happened.

So.....In my opinion, I believe two things at the present. 1) What has been done on our behalf is the best process we could hope for; and, 2) Don't count your chickens till they are hatched.

[TahoeTim]

I have followed this very close. There is a provision in this bill that essentially states that a drivers license is allowed for a third class medical even if the FAA doesn't act in a year so the maximum time that it can be delayed is one year.

I realize that light sport is still in play but who would NEED to stay in light sport? Only the serious medical conditions will still be in light sport. It will be a much smaller group. It seems that most hate the biannual medical and the risk that you might not pass your third class medical so we all dropped into light sport.

I, for one, am going to upgrade to PP. I have all the time booked and need a check ride. My medical got in a snarl over paperwork lost at the FAA. I got it cleared and then did not renew it. All I have to do is show my drivers license and take my check ride. I'm looking forward to 1550 lbs in my kitfox and I'm not really worried about the used market by taking it out of light sport legal. I could be wrong but I see the light sport market shrinking.

I want to carry more than one passenger an I want to fly at night.

[Flybyjim]

As a private pilot but flying in the lite sport category does the new bill say if you have not had a 3rd class medical in the past ten years you must have a medical exam once, is this correct?

[TahoeTim]

that is correct, one last expensive and risky exam from an AME (risky if you fail), then you are home free. I see the next step in a few years being no AME ever which would effectively make PP medical requirement the same as the current sport pilot rule.

[efwd]

Well, as a commercial rated pilot and flying to sport pilot limitations I can say that I hope that your right about the Medical requirements for Private pilots dropping to that of the sport. I want to fly at night too! I just like it, not that I need to. Most of my flying is within sport pilot limitations so to pay a medical examiner for a physical is really uneccesary.
Eddie

[TahoeTim]

It's pretty close with an added form for your regular doctor to complete every 4 years. It doesn't get sent to the FAA and it doesn't ground you immediately if he/she won't sign it. You can get a second opinion, something that the current system lacks.

[Esser]

Don't forget that you guys have to get the heavier duty gear when you move your lsa to 1550

[efwd]

The Grove gear is not rated at 1550? I don't recall ever seeing an upgrade offered for such a thing. Eh, not a big deal for me anyhow..

[Esser]

Maybe they put the heavier gear on all the planes now but when I ordered mine I had to pay more for the 1550 grove gear. I just assumed the standard gear was a lighter duty grove.

[jmodguy]

My AME wants me to fly, my doc wants me to be "healthy". Read what you want into it.
This legislation, IMO, doesn't really cover the intent of the medical reform. You still have to see a doctor at a prescribed interval and keep proof of it. Some docs will be terrified of the liability this may place on them and won't sign on the dotted line until they have talked with their insurance carriers and or lawyers. After that some will not sign...
First time someone with a health issue augers one in, the doc will be sued and that will be the end of that. Lawyers and insurance companies will not allow them to sign these papers. We will then be going back to AMEs for our medicals.
For those with docs that won't sign these new papers from the beginning, you are left with going back to your AME.
Don't want to sound negative, but I don't see any real gains in this legislation other than a 2 yr extension on a medical...

[TahoeTim]

I don't see it that way at all. I can still go to my AME once every 4 years. If he or she doesn't sign, I am NOT grounded. I can go get a second opinion. What excuse could an AME possibly use for not signing? My doc will sign. All he's saying is that my capacity to drive is good. Think about it, if I am capable of driving, I am capable of flying under this new rule.

How has a medical ever been proven as a primary cause of an accident?

I didn't start this thread to debate the law.

[GregA]

Apparently signed, sealed, and delivered. Now to wait for the FAA to make the official rules (apparently supposed to happen within 180 days, but the default is 365 days.

Greg

[GuppyWN]

Does this effectively eliminate LSA's?

[Av8r3400]

No.

There are tens of thousands of Light Sport certificated pilots and even more Private and Recreational Pilots who have not held a medical in the last 10 years who will choose to not risk the renewal process and continue under the Light Sport rules.

[mr bill]

No, this new rule really only applies to private pilots. Light sport doesn't need a medical at all.

[WWhunter]

Please, guys...no offense, but have you really read this? For those that are currently flying under LSA because they can't get a medical or scared of passing one, it doesn't change a thing. If you have had a medical since 2006, then you may be golden but if you have any codition or are taking g any medications not allowed, you are not legally going to be able to fly. The form that is now signed by your regular physician is almost the same exact questions you had for your 3rd class medical. YOU are now certifying the fact that you are healthy and not taking any prohibited medication. I will bet that anyone that has an incident will be thoroughly investigated. This has just removed the AME and the requirement of send a copy to the FAA.
Do your research before thinking this is going to be the answer for all those hoping to 'get into something bigger'.

Guppy, no, it doesn't eliminate LSA.


Everyone needs to read this themselves and not depend on 'internet commandos' to answer your questions.

[GuppyWN]

No offense taken. I get two 1st Class medicals a year and I don't see that changin. Since it doesnt affect me I just skimmed the info and thought about all the lighter weight certified airplanes and wondered.

[TahoeTim]

Wow WW, wow. I sure hope readers here take a few minutes to go read the new law for themselves.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/senate-bill/571/text

(Pay paticular attention to Section 2, item 6 where the doctor checks off that he is treating the patient for anything he finds. That, to me, says "oops, I found something but I can check box 6 because I am treating you for it." It does not say cured, it says being treated. As you read the law, notice how many times it says "aircraft and motor vehicle" when referring to the standards.) I have AFIB. I've had it since in my 40's. I take a medication allowed by the FAA so I am being treated for the condition. Under my 3rd class, I have to take an annual treadmill, nuclear med scan, and send a huge pile of paper to the FAA every year. Too expensive to continue. Now, my cardiologist will simply check box 6 and sign that I am fit for "aircraft and vehicle operation".

WW,
I won't bother citing Sport pilot rules regarding medications and grounding yourself. You can go read it for your own enlightenment:

https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/medical_certification/sportpilots/response4/

http://flightphysical.com/pilot/FAR-61-53-Illness.htm

You are implying in your post that a sport pilot has a more lenient set of medical health standards than other classes of pilotage. Just because you can get away with it doesn't make it right. Your whole argument about being investigated after an incident exists today for ALL pilots. The required biannual online free course will go a long way to squash these errors of interpretation of the current rules. Some here surely need to crack the books once in awhile.

I want to see our hobby come back to life and any relief is a positive step. I think thousands of pilots that dropped out since 2006 will start flying cheap Cessnas again. IMHO, there is a group of pilots that are not builders and cannot afford a LSA plane. There is a huge supply of $20,000 to $30,000 aircraft that will get back in the air. I am a fan of all flying, sport pilot or otherwise.

"This has just removed the AME and the requirement of send a copy to the FAA." Which is HUGE! You must be kidding on this one. (See my situation above)

The EAA and AOPA should be thanked for their years of effort to get this passed.

[jmodguy]

I have read it before and thanks for the link. The following comments are not meant to be antagonistic - they are how I am reading the "rules". If I am misinterpreting them please elaborate! I have been wrong every now and then :-D

Section 2.a.7 states 48 months. If you fall outside 48 months you are grounded. There is no language staying this period for a second opinion.
Section 2.b.C.i.IX. Never had an anal exam by my AME...
Section 2.b.C.i.XIV - scars and tattoos? really??
Section 2.b.C.i.XVII - really??? Next thing you know you will be on the no fly list
Section 2.b.C.i.XXII - Here's the catch all.
Section 2.b.C.iv
“I certify that I discussed all items on this checklist with the individual during my examination, discussed any medications the individual is taking that could interfere with their ability to safely operate an aircraft or motor vehicle, and performed an examination that included all of the items on this checklist. I certify that I am not aware of any medical condition that, as presently treated, could interfere with the individual’s ability to safely operate an aircraft.”
Aircraft OR motor vehicle... If the doc fails you - legally you cannot drive a motor vehicle, let alone fly your airplane. Any lawyers out there for clarification??
Section 2.b.C.v - This is where the doc puts his credentials on the line... Some will, some won't.
This is MANDATED to be kept in your pilots logbook along with the 2 year online training. Without these records YOU ARE GROUNDED.
Section 2.d - your PBOR is now tied to your driving record - by law.
Section 2.e.3 This could mean anything. A shrink with an "opinion" can basically deny your PBOR. You are done flying.
I really don't see anything good in this "legislation". Yeah you don't HAVE to see an AME and the results aren't reported to the FAA, but the schedule is still there. The legal requirement for an exam is STILL there. Anything derogatory WILL ground you.
my .02.
Again - If I am misunderstanding any of this please help me understand the language.

[WWhunter]

jmodguy,
THANK YOU! Thank you! Thank You! You understand what I was trying to convey. I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV but the language of this is interpreted by my 3rd grade education:eek: the same as you are stating.



Tahoetim,

I probably didn't compose my response as well as could have been done (I was trying to respond via my phone). I was only trying to get the point across that this new legislation is not a 'cure-all'. There are way too many guys out there that seem to think that they are all of a sudden golden and can jump out of their LSA's and into bigger iron. For some, maybe this is possible, but those that have never gotten a medical or let it lapse (10+ years ago) will still need to pass a one time physical. These guys are still under the same constraints (basically) as there were before this was passed.


All, have to excuse my not too well written response as I just got to Florida after a 3 day drive. M-I-L in the hospital for a heart attack. I mean no ill will and only want people to inform themselves before they get too excited over this legislation.

[gregsgt]

This new legislation fits me perfectly. On to private pilot for me. Before I spent more on tests and inconveniences for my special issuance (which even my doctor said was stupid) than I did on flying which is what forced me into LSA. This has actually gotten me thinking about selling my plane and moving up into something that will fit my usage better. I'm thrilled.

[Slyfox]

I have no medical conditions. I go in every 2 years for the dreaded class 3. I have to still do one in September. The problem I have been seeing lately is all the AME's are retiring. My latest one retired last year. now in the whole area I think there is 2. there is 500,000 or more people in my area. just 2. one in cda and one here in Spokane. I am excited that my doc will be able to give me the paperwork in the future and it will be 4 years. nice. me happy. I like it. :D

[Dave S]

Slyfox,

I am pretty much in the same position you are; and, you bring up an interesting additional point. So far in my short aviation career, I have outlived two AMEs, had four more retire consecutively since then; and, they are getting to be an endangered species up here as near as I can tell. The fact that the PBOR takes effect in one year is not going to increase the number of AMEs available, nor decrease the distance one would have to drive to get to one. My current AME is excellent, up to date on the practice of medicine and aviation; however, the fact that he had his cataracts fixed three years befor I did tells me retirement isn't that far out for him either.

BTW - if anyone out there is feeling any anxiety about cataract surgery.....don't....The procedures are really good now. Never having had anyone come at me with sharp instruments for medical purposes before, I was a little concerned about it; however, they have some really good "I don't give a crap juice" they give you so you never notice and the outcome was fantastic......born with 20/400 distance vision which progressed to 20/200 as I achieved a degree of "chronological superiority" (we tend to get less near sighted with age) and after the surgery I ended up 20/20 distance vision in both eyes without glasses. Never been able to see very far without glasses before. The paperwork is quite minor.:)

[jrevens]

I like it too. I think that there are many positives. My only concern is that the wording on the form to be signed by your doctor is non-threatening enough so that doctors and their insurance companies are not scared off because of liability concerns. I'm with gregsgt, Slyfox & Dave.

[jtpitkin06]

For me, I welcome the 3rd class reform.

My last two years with the airline 2006 to 2008 I flew with a first class special issuance. The FAA determined I was healthy enough to captain a wide body across oceans at night. The union picked up the tab for the advocates and medical advisory service every six months. All was well.

When I retired I had to foot the bill myself. Insurance doesn't think it is medically necessary or job related to take the FAA testing because I'm retired. So the expenses are not fully covered. Every year I get to do a stress echo treadmill EKG and every other year I get a heavy dose of radiation for the radio nuclide stress test. I just love the nausea and having my hair fall out. I think I'll vacation in Chernoble. Cost... About $3600 a year to get a third class medical. You also get a restriction that the certificate is not good for any class after one year.

I never did figure out what the treadmill was supposed to prove. I do a lot of exercise on a treadmill at home. I have it on the maximum angle and the speed is as fast as my stubby little legs can pedal. When doing the FAA test I can go to Bruce Protocol level four in 12 minutes and my heart rate is still below 100. My biggest problem is hitting the required maximal heart rate before my legs give out in level five. A sign above the machine at the cardiologist office reads, "The treadmill always wins."

Then I get to submit lab reports, blood tests, take a regular FAA physical with yet another EKG, a CD of pictures from my echo cardiogram and reams of paper with supporting documents. All for what??? I don't normally run at full speed in the cockpit.

The reform means to me that I have taken my last FAA run-my-arse-off treadmill test and the $3600 goes into my fuel fund.

My doctors have no problem giving a physical and signing the checklist. They do it all the time for employers certifying a patient may return to work. They did it for me when I went back to work after the chest crack. No problem.

I welcome the reform and look forward to seeing thousands of pilots returning to the air. The only negative I see is the coming shortage of used legacy airplanes under 6000 pounds.

Thanks to all that wrote to their congressional reps and senators to get this thing passed.

Incidentally, I took another special issuance FAA physical on March 3, 2016. I'm still waiting for FAA approval as of July 18, 2016. That's right... Four months grounded while the FAA looks at yet another pile of paper.

John Pitkin

[Agfoxflyer]

I renewed my 3rd Class medical about 9 months ago. My AME commented you just got you last 3rd class medical. He said they will pass the legislation. He said, and I have wondered, the defining thing will be what insurance companies will allow. I will most assuredly will be able to fly the Kitfox, but can I fly my brothers RV-10 with a constant seed prop, with 3 passengers with insurance approval with out a current 3rd class. I could see insurance companies having an issue with a pilot flying a 6 place, 250 knots without a current 3rd class.

[TahoeTim]

look at it from the insurance side

Basically you could say the law redefines the definition of a light sport plane since with little more than a drivers license I can fly heavier larger aircraft. Is that better or worse than a small homebuilt experimental plane? Don't know.