700 foot good flat grass runway, would you land?

[charosenz]

Quick question.

Would you land on a 700 foot grass runway that is flat and you knew the runway was in good shape?

Also, please say your plane model, thanks.

--------------

The reason I am asking is that I am considering buying a kitfox because I have room to make a 700 foot runway in my pasture, but I want to hear from guys who fly this plane to see if that is realistic - for them. Not me.

It would if I could hear more than "it depends on the pilot's skill". I completely agree but, if a lot of guys say "yes" and they have a fairly "typical" model 4-5-6-7, and not just all STI models, that would mean a lot to me. The same, if most of them say "No, not that short". That would also help a ton.

I really appreciate the help, good flying to all.....

Thanks.

Charlie.

[Craig Howard]

I land on a 300 ft RC airport here in El Paso , 4oooft elev. DA's around 6000 in a KF 4 80hp rotax 912. no problem. I now fly a skyraider super with a 100hp 912 rotax and land at the same RCairport.

[Rooster]

I would in my Kitfox 5 with a Franklin 116 HP Motor.
But only on my own.
Reid

[Dave S]

Charlie,

Depends.....

I have never operated out of a 700' grass strip; however, I have utilized a 900' ultralight grass strip....after practicing on my home 'port till I was confident I could land AND takeoff well within a conservative limit. That one had 14' corn abutted up against the approach end of the strip with a clear departure end (for the wind that day) so I ended up sacrificing 200 - 250 feet of runway for the sake of staying well clear of the corn. still had 300 feet of runway left after coming to a stop. Attached photo is looking towards the approach end from the departure end - notice the field is in a low spot also. There are days I'd do it and conditions when I would not.

OK - the depends.

1) Obstructions
2) Density altitude
3) Aircraft loading (fuel/baggage/passenget)
4) Wind
5) Wind Gusts/shear/wind gradient/orographic turbulence potential
6) Topography of the field
7) Do I really need to land there

Approach speed has to be managed precisely; and, I am not inclined to slow the aircraft down without a reasonable buffer from stall speed until my wheels are real close to the ground. Less than 1.25 Vso is not all that much of a buffer in a low stall speed aircraft like a kitfox, comparing the buffer speed to the wind gradient and gusts that can be out there.

Experience with our 100HP S7 tells me If the engine ever pooped, I would have no doubt about surviving a landing in a one block long clear space and if it was two blocks long I might even be able to use the airplane again. But that's emergency operations.

[Slyfox]

700ft. I hope there is nothing on the approach. that is a bit tight. I can do it. I fly airplanes. I don't like to consider myself a pilot. they only do 10hrs a year. :) seriously though. If you have a clear path coming in or out. you should not have any problems if you are a good flyer. speed is very important coming in. nothing greater then 50 over the fence. Idle, oh boy here we go. I have my idle set up so it can go all the way down to 500rpm. WHAT! yup. I don't do that on the ground, I manage that real good. But when I am landing and need to slow that plane, yup pull back all the way, sometimes all the way down to touch down. Another thing, an adjustable prop. I have the ivo medium. I will normally run my plane full throttle and adjust the prop for 5200rpm. when I get three miles out I pull the throttle back to 4400rpm and then raise the prop pitch to get 5200. Now it's setup to land. it also allows engine braking when I pull all the way back on my throttle. If there is no obstructions in the way ,you can fly on the prop and real low to the ground all the way to touch down, so technically you have a longer runway in reality.

One more thing, if you let the grass grow a little longer it will slow you down real quick. I find it really doesn't matter to much on take off. Here at felts they put in the dream grass field. the other day it was kind of long. I still got off fairly quick, but landing, wow I was stopped real quick. Now let that same grass get wet, oh man, is it slippery. I actually hit the rudder for a left turn off the grass and the plane went sideways. was fun, but the landing distance was like I was on snow. something else to think about

[Av8r3400]

My strip is 950 with trees. (Check my YouTube channel)

It's doable but you will need to be on your "A" game and you will NEED an alternate if the wind or sun or whatever isn't helping.

[Slyfox]

I've seen the utube. I love that also, super slip time, ya baby. also very doable':D

[AirFox]

I fly a 7SS and it's very doable.

[Av8r3400]

I have an AOA in the Mangy Fox and am beginning to use it for approaches. I'm still learning the plane and will post some video when I get more comfortable in it.

[Wheels]

Nope.
My model IV 1200 with 80 HP Rotax will do it, but I'm not doing it. I have 1600 feet of grass and I consistently use 800 of that to roll out. I fly over a water obstacle and bushes at the approach end so landing on the fence line is out. I take off from there and am airborn in 400 feet with full tanks solo.
Landing from touchdown to stop is a 400 foot deal but I eat 100 feet or more on the obstacle at the approach end. Until I got instruction from Paul Leadebrand and John Mcbean, I could NEVER land that short.
Just sayin.
If every landing has to be that short, well, I'm no carrier pilot, feel free to be unimpressed with my skill, but I do intend to be quite old when I'm done flying.

[neville]

I have angle of attack in my SS7/rotax 912iS and would not own a plane without it after using AOA. Really increases the safety factor of any approach and is very useful on low speed/short field approachs. I suspect it is part of the answer to the FAA's loss of control issue. A good demonstration is to overshoot the turn to final and increase the bank to compensate. The AOA might read 3 degrees with a normal turn and jump up to 8 or 9 with the
rapid turn to correct the overshoot. On my system calibration, 15 degrees is
stall. Best glide and best angle of climb are also indicated.

[Wheels]

It IS doable. I just don't want it to be MANDATORY. It makes the stakes higher for failure of any system or judgment. I'm just not that good. or brave, or rich. (parts are expensive, Calcium is slow to heal.

[trentp]

I am building a house and plan to put an airstrip on it that will be about 800ft, at an elevation of 5800ft, I am thinking the 800ft is more than enough, but I don't plan on flying in or out of there when the winds aren't in my favor. So depending on what elevation the strip is I think you will be fine given the conditions are decent. I have a series 5 with a 912 and a high compression zipper big bore.

I operate from some backcountry spots that are about 500ft long, at 6000ft elevation (when I went into one the other day the density alt was at 7500ft, and I had a passenger and full fuel, we used up pretty much all 500ft on takeoff but it is doable). I just know on short spots I have to hit my mark, if I am going to miss then I go around and sometimes you just have to say "not today".

Basically 700ft is totally enough for the Kitfox, even if its at a high elevation, at sea level it should be a walk in the park once you know your airplane and can hit your intended landing spot consistently.

[N981MS]

I land at a 1000 foot runway with trees at one end. Luckily for me those trees are pecan trees planted in rows. I have never had to overrun into the grove but I do aim for the hole just in case.

One thing I have heard, and agree, with is that on really short fields with departure obstructions, you need to have a slightly different mindset than we have with the typical GA airport we land at. It should be considered before final and definitely on final. It goes like this:

You will reach a point of no return. Once at that point a go around is not possible and YOU WILL LAND. You may overrun into the brush and lose the plane but your survival is more likely.

That list of considerations posted before are all pertinent. One more:
If the grass is wet, the brakes will be unbelievably ineffective.

[Slyfox]

oh and one more thing, if you need to stop hit into a tree, but hit the wing not the engine, the wing will soften the blow. I know not what you want to hear, but this WILL save your life.

[WWhunter]

Charlie,
What is your flying experience? This has a LOT to do with the decision to T/O or Land from your proposed strip. I had a 1,000' strip in the trees that I used to land an O-235 powered Champ at. My strip was literally tall trees on each end so the 1,000 foot distance was deceiving on landing since one had to drop in over the trees, which ate up quite a bit of that distance. Getting stopped with the nearly worthless brakes on the Champ made for some exciting times when I had a passenger. The KF is a much better performing plane than my Champ was.

This strip is at 1500' elevation. I have since lengthened it to roughly 1800' so I can bring my 172 in. I fly my RANS S7 in/out of it, and this plane could easily operate out of 4-500'. Hopefully kitfoxnick will chime in. I have flown with him as a passenger in his KF IV. If I remember correctly his plane is an 80 HP. I think his strip is 600' (maybe it is 900') and he knows his plane very well. In and out with ease having two aboard the KF.

Guess what I am trying to say, it really comes down to pilot experience and technique.

[Slyfox]

just remember, fly your airplane, up high, learn what it can do at the lowest airspeed. try to act like you are landing, slow slow slow, then hang on the prop, then cut the power and imagine doing a three point and wait for the stall, that will be your best landing speed. then move it to the ground level, doing touch and goes on hopefully a grass field similar to what you will have and then land a 3 point with a good predictable stall landing. I'm sure stick and rudder will have you do a 3 point stall landing this is what you want.

one more thing, I never look out the front, I don't look at the cowl, I have the round one, doesn't matter. I look at the left wheel and out to the left on a 45. been doing that forever. for one, looking out the front when it comes to a 3 point you see nothing but panel. if you have blocked doors on the lower section, fix it. put in clear. this kind of landing does a bunch, first you are not handicapped because you are trying to line up the cowl to runway, very dangerous. second if you have to land in the sun you can be blinded. 3rd you will now be able to see things on the runway, like birds or another airplane :eek:
I can land any airplane by doing this, something to learn.

[efwd]

Except the Spirit of St. Louis.
:rolleyes:;)

[efwd]

OK, I stand corrected. I didn't realize he just put his head out the doors window.

[kitfoxnick]

Like wwhunter said I operate out of a 900' long strip at 700' msl. My strip has trees at one end. I've been using it since 2008 and the Kitfox has no problem doing it. 700' with open approaches is very doable. It is amazing how much a corn stalk for an obstacle can add to your landing. I rent some of my neighbors ground off the end of my runway just to keep it from being in corn.
This type of flying demands energy management and touchdown consistency. Touching down in the first third of 700' runway is much different then touching down in the first third of a 3000' runway. At my place the trees are 600' from the end of my runway with a few of the shorter trees north of the runway centerline. So on short final say 1000' from the threshold I aim for the shorter trees and slow down, (probably in the low 40's I don't know I never look) and as soon as I clear the last tree it's a hard slip as I side step back towards the centerline. I can usually come out of the slip and touch down tail low within the first 100' of runway. This works unless the wind is out of the North. When it's out of the north you have to come out of the side step slip early and then get the other wing down and into the wind.
I say do it. Having a strip at your house is priceless.

[kitfox2009]

Hi guys
This is slightly off topic but just another example of how versitile these ac are. When I returned from Nelson on Sunday the wind at our airport was directly across the runway at 22 gusting 28 knots! Fortunately it is 200 feet wide. By coming in clean , a bit faster than normal and angling , utilizing the full width I managed to land smoothly in about 300 feet.
Not sure exactly how but even the controller was impressed!
Anyway I am sure some of you guys do this all the time but normally here in the Valley with 2 long lakes at either end of the runway we don't get much practice at cross wind operation.. These are amazing little aircraft
Cheers
Don

[tx_swordguy]

I by no means am an expert but in my limited flying experience (less than 150 hrs) my difficulty is more on landing and hitting the mark you intend to despite wind changes etc. With a limited amount of space it becomes quite demanding to get down and stopped within a specific point. Reasons being that you are coming in and must be down and under control by a specified point that might require hitting the brakes quite hard which can bring in a whole different set of circumstances. Take off is basically hammer down and if you are not off the ground by your go-no go point you shut it down. I think it is doable but dont count out having to land at a nearby airport and wait out any wind changes before landing back home. I am currently looking for a kitfox/avid for a 1100 foot strip. My north end currently has electric lines at the end that I will have to slip over to land 18. I will be eating up 300' of that before touch down and will really have to practice T&G on it before committing to a landing. Good luck

[Slyfox]

This morning, yes I love to fly in the morning, at 5:30 I went flying. I did my usual thing. I love low flying, I won't say how low here, may have some ears or eyes that shouldn't be looking. but anyway, on my way back the tower was open and I noticed the winds were blowing from the north east. I called in for my normal landing on the sod and was asked if I wanted 04. I said sure. I came in real short and followed 04r all the way down to delta and then did a flat turn over to the sod, this is fun by the way, then I held off for the end, the winds were 010@3 nothing much, I noticed I was holding 60mph, it did not want to come down, I didn't expect it to, I was approaching the vasi lights off the right on the other side of the asphalt runway, that's 600' to the end, so I knew I had to get below 50, so I pulled some power and 50 right now, I'm still holding about 3 ft off and I said now or never. I was beyond the vasi lights, I pulled all power and pulled the stick back, beautiful landing, added a little brake not much and stopped right at the end. I figure that was 400ft from touch to stop. very nice predictable landing.

You may be asking, what is a flat turn, that is where you keep the wings level and use the rudder to turn the plane. I use this on take off and landing, sometimes I like to play around and us it on a turn like crosswind or base. this has saved me from hitting birds on runway and in the air. before I get into things, I do have vg's . they do help a bunch on many things, I have speedster wings, I will never go back to the long wing, I love mine. I have a bit more dihedral than most kitfoxes. I feel that helps with a more stable airplane, in turbulence and just all around control. I get very crazy with my plane, I can go down a track and put it on it's side and turn this thing and come right back on the opposite direction on the same track. this is very helpful when stuck in a bowl in the mountains, yes I have used it. just be under 90mph or it will tear your head off, I like 60. again, I practiced this at altitude first. never stalled. even with the power off.

[charosenz]

I by no means am an expert but in my limited flying experience (less than 150 hrs) my difficulty is more on landing and hitting the mark you intend to despite wind changes etc. With a limited amount of space it becomes quite demanding to get down and stopped within a specific point. Reasons being that you are coming in and must be down and under control by a specified point that might require hitting the brakes quite hard which can bring in a whole different set of circumstances. Take off is basically hammer down and if you are not off the ground by your go-no go point you shut it down. I think it is doable but dont count out having to land at a nearby airport and wait out any wind changes before landing back home. I am currently looking for a kitfox/avid for a 1100 foot strip. My north end currently has electric lines at the end that I will have to slip over to land 18. I will be eating up 300' of that before touch down and will really have to practice T&G on it before committing to a landing. Good luck

Sword guy,

That part about picking your spot to land and being able to hit it, is a reoccurring theme, that really stands out. It something that all of us can grasp and use as a goal for knowing our limits and abilities (plane and pilot).

Hope to hear more about that airstrip and your experiences at it when it works out. Share what you accomplished and learned.

Thanks.

Charlie

[Slyfox]

maybe I can find a picture of a straight on shot of my airplane. They are NOT flat by no means. I've been told that it is more then most. I do know that when I fly with other foxes they are having a bad time with turbulence and I am flying nice and smooth. I here it quit often. I still get hit, but I find I have a better time in the same air. click on my stats and look at my folder for my airplane, might give you an idea.

flat turn, imagine a hard turn from lets say the sod runway to the asphalt runway with flat or level wings and the plane with almost full rudder, yes it is, cross control, you don't want to look at the ball, it's way out of whack. I don't like to stay on the sod for any more time then needed, birds like to hid in the grass, so I move off the grass after takeoff and track out on the asphalt runway. the fox doesn't care about the ball being way off it keeps on flying. At least mine does, you have to try yours, again at altitude first. I also use that to slow down, I don't like flaps, might put in some wing to keep it straight. Now with that I never move my flaps. how can I do that and keep level flight, I have elevator trim. one of my favorite mods also.

Here is another thing about my airplane, it's light, it weighs in a 630 dry. I weigh in a 172. so my plane is very fun to fly. along with the 912uls and the ivo prop. I have a smile on my face when I fly that is real big.

when I fly local I only put in 10 gal of fuel, five in each side. I have a ball valve on each side and run on only one side, it goes empty I switch. I also have a low fuel warning light. the small amount of fuel saves weight also. I generally fly for an hour. so about half my fuel is used. I use auto fuel and using one tank at a time insures that I am putting fresh fuel in and I keep track of it. for one I leave the ladder on the side I just fueled, two the ball valve is usually on for the tank that is low, otherwise I just look at the tanks.

[Wheels]

Jimmy Dulin wrote about the flat turn for crop dusting in his book "Contact Flying"
Its a real technique, so is the stall spin which starts with the ball being out of the cage in a stall. The Parameters for those two maneuvers should be very far apart. I'm not an instructor, but I know one.
He told me not to let the ball be out of the cage close to the ground under 65 mph in my plane. Just saying.

[Slyfox]

Wheels, we still need to hook up some day. Do you know Jeff at latitude in CDA. Well I just did my flight review with him and I told him of the flat turn and he said he does it with his 170(think that is what he has) So... I think what you need to do is go up to and try it up high and see if your fox will do it. remember, mine has vg's , the plastic ones from the guys up their in sandpoint. anyway, it's a lot of fun and WILL get you out of trouble close to the ground. I mean one time I took off and a Canadian Goose popped up out of the weeds and I was just lifting, hit a full left rudder and kept wings level and missed that thing by inches. If I would have tried to bank any, I would have hit the ground with the wings. :eek:

[Wheels]

I do know that trick and its safe at speed. Dulin explains its use as a maneuver to keep from banking close to the ground like you said. just saying that a spin is precipitated by a stall with cross control input. I"m preaching to the choir, you have been flying your fox longer than me I think.
We'll get together this August at the fly in maybe.

[charosenz]

I do know that trick and its safe at speed. Dulin explains its use as a maneuver to keep from banking close to the ground like you said. just saying that a spin is precipitated by a stall with cross control input. I"m preaching to the choir, you have been flying your fox longer than me I think.
We'll get together this August at the fly in maybe.

Steve, Wheels, Fly-in? I hate to ask but .. would you be planning maybe to go to the Hood River fly-in?

[Wheels]

Greetings Kitfoxers,
My name is Jeff Joern. I own a Kitfox SS that I built and first flew in 2012. I am based out of Glacier Park Airport (KGPI) and my playground is NW Montana. John and Deb McBean have expressed interest in flying out to this corner of the country, and with their help and support, I propose hosting a gathering of Kitfoxer's this August. The dates would be: arrive Friday Aug. 19th, fly-out/play on Sat. the 20th and depart on the 21st...of course, people could come earlier...leave later as desired. It will be held at Ryan Field (2MT1). Ryan field is located about a mile from West Glacier, MT and is managed by the Recreational Aviation Foundation (RAF) The caretaker has cleared the way to have a gathering there that weekend...see web site: http://theraf.org/ryan-field-pilot-info It would mean camping, unless individuals made arrangements to stay in nearby West Glacier, or flew back to Kalispell, either city airport (S27) or Glacier Park Airport, or even Whitefish(58S). Sat. fly-out opportunities include a back-country flight out to Schafer USFS(8U2), Spotted Bear USFS(8U4) or Meadow Creek USFS(0S1). Additionally, I have talked with the curator at Crystal Lakes Resort(01MT)...also known as the StoneHenge Air museum...see website: http://stonehengeairmuseum.org/ to possibly getting a tour of the museum. Others could fly to Whitefish...there are bikes at the field to borrow to ride to town, or go back to Kalispell for the day. Of course, being at the door to Glacier National Park has its own draw. Lodging (or camping) and groune transportation will be each individuals responsibility. With enough interest, for a nominal charge, I can coordinate/host a barbecue one evening and maybe have some coffee and pastries Sat. morning. Let me know your interest and later I will be soliciting commitments/reservations...

[Slyfox]

Steve, Wheels, Fly-in? I hate to ask but .. would you be planning maybe to go to the Hood River fly-in?

when is it?