Fueling Options

[LSaupe]

I am looking for ways to fuel our bird without needing to hoist a 5 gallon can over the wing each time. My wife can't lift a can very high and doesn't want to take the risk.

I was thinking something like:

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pspages/goatthroat.php

Anyone have experience with this or other ideas?

Or maybe something like this "if" you can hold the end in the tank and crank at the same time.

http://www.amazon.com/HMC-Gasoline-Caddy-20-Gallon-GC-20R/dp/B00BJ2ELPS/ref=pd_sim_sbs_263_4?ie=UTF8&dpID=31-3Yf%2BkCAL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR86%2C160_&refRID=050SN5Y4GHEMEM3ABW9D

or

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200484467_200484467?utm_campaign=bazaarvoi ce&utm_medium=SearchVoice&utm_source=RatingsAndReviews&utm_content=Default

[rosslr]

Hi Laurie,

I got an old trailer(donated from friend) and re-sprayed it, mounted a 200lt Ex Avgas drum (free from depot) on it permanently, and use a regular rotary hand pump(about $150) that delivers 0.6lt per rotation. I just drive to the local servo and fill it up and keep it in the hanger. I use a jumper cable for earthing. Easy option. I carefully mounted the drum in the middle of the trailer to balance it and make it easy to move it around by hand.

a (rather poor!) photo attached.

cheers

ross

[WWhunter]

I made something similar but changed the hand crank pump to a 12 volt electric one for the simple reason, I can fuel by myself. The problem with the handcrank type, if you are alone at the plane, is having to crank a little......check the level....crank a little more...check again. It was too easy to over fill if a guy wasn't paying attention. I never did, but the chance of doing so is their. With the electric, just connect the clips to a battery and using a typical fuel nozzle like at a fuel station, you can top off the tanks without any worry.

[jiott]

I have been using a fuel caddy with a rotary hand pump for several years. I agree with Hunter it is kind of a pain to have to pump a little then look etc. to avoid overfill. But I have avoided the electric pump because of fears of fire. One piece of advice on a hand pump-Don't go too cheap like I did; the cheap ones leak and don't prime as well.

[rosslr]

I agree on the quality pump Jim-I got one the fuel wholesaler recommended. it has a coarse filter at the base of the stem and the other filter near the pump. I also filter it going into the tank. I have calibrated it to know it pumps .6lt per rotation - 6lt per 10 rotations - that way it is pretty easy to know when you are within a few lts of full if you know your fuel gauges pretty well. I am sure the electric version is good too and probably safe if used properly - but like jim - I just wanted to avoid sparks around fuel. I should add that my setup is probably not legal - worth checking what your local regs are.

cheers

ross

[WWhunter]

I actually have one I built that I can carry via the receiver hitch on my vehicle. Basically I welded up a frame that holds a small barrel (15 gallon) and have a 12 volt type pump in it also. The pump came with about 15 feet of wire with aligator clips that you hook to the battery of your vehicle. I never worried about sparks since this is at the front of my truck while the fuel/pump is in the rear.

You can get a rebuilt one for less than $200.00

gpi.net/fuel-products/rebuilt/

[GaryNo]

Check this out.http://www.flofast.com/flofastmsrp.html I have the Professional Model series.:)

[LSaupe]

Great feedback. Thanks All.

[SkySteve]

Here is what I made. 35 gal barrel. The stand is the same height as the tailgate of my truck. Load the barrel in the truck. Drive to gas station. Fill barrel. Drive to hangar. Push stand next to tailgate. Push barrel onto stand. The pump handle moves up and down so I climb up on a ladder, hold the gas nozzle in the plane's wing tank and move the other hand up and down as I pump fuel into plane. Easy to use.
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff12/KitfoxSteve/85DD/3BCE0683-0806-4A7E-89CD-A959B988B0A4-13311-000016D57DDC736F.jpg (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/KitfoxSteve/media/85DD/3BCE0683-0806-4A7E-89CD-A959B988B0A4-13311-000016D57DDC736F.jpg.html)

Later I added a drag chain and grounding cable.http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff12/KitfoxSteve/85DD/216CB24E-1474-46D8-BBAA-4ADAC8FBD55F-15797-00001AE18BF60300.jpg (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/KitfoxSteve/media/85DD/216CB24E-1474-46D8-BBAA-4ADAC8FBD55F-15797-00001AE18BF60300.jpg.html)

[rv9ralph]

You can check Northern Tool online. They sell fuel systems for farm/ranch use. Several choices for pumps, hoses and nozzles.

Ralph

[TahoeTim]

or, just run 100LL and let the airport fuel you up

(not trying to be a smart a**, I have no other option in California or Nevada)

[Timberwolf]

You can check Northern Tool online. They sell fuel systems for farm/ranch use. Several choices for pumps, hoses and nozzles.

Ralph

None of their pumps I've ever seen are are rated for the volatility of gasoline. You're taking a risk when not using an explosion proof pump made for the fuel you are going to use.

[jtpitkin06]

Our local airport has a strict prohibition on storing fuel in hangars. If fuel is not in aircraft wings or a tug fuel tank, it is not allowed.

Most of the mogas burners drag the aircraft out of the hangar and back the pickup next to the wing. Then stand in the truck bed while transferring fuel.

Hoisting a 5 gal container (30 pounds) can be unwieldy so some of the pilots use a 2-1/2 gal jug (15 pounds) as a transfer vessel. Yeah, it takes a few more steps, but it is fairly easy and you don't have to lift a five gallon jug higher than your hip. A big funnel reduces dribbles and spills.

There's almost always someone around to lend a hand.

[Peteohms]

When I need to use a 5 gallon gas can, I put a cloth over the tank, piece of plywood on the cloth to spread the load, and I set the gas can on the plywood. I use a giggle siphon hose from the can to the tank.

[Dave S]

John Pitkin has a bunch of good ideas....guess I hadn't thought of the 2 1/2 gallon jugs since I have a ton of the 5 s and too cheap to change. I just keep telling myself it is an exercise program.

Also have found a big old tractor funnel handy with a chamois fastened over the top as a final filter. almost always find a few water beads on the chamois in the summer and ice flakes in the winter. Almost never find any water droplets in the plane when sumping. The Chamois also has helped me select which gas stations I want to buy from as a person can easily assess what "additives" come from what stations...we have three 91 corn free auto gas stations by the airport and some others between our house and the 'port - one of them is now my favorite.

Dave S
KF 7 Trigear
912uls Warp drive

St Paul, MN

[HighWing]

Later I added a drag chain and grounding cable.
Steve,
Where do you clip the grounding clip?

[Dave S]

Lowell,

Your comment brings to mind an issue I was considering during our build. With the fuel tank/wing design on a kitfox, the metal fuel filler and contents of the fuel tank is essentially insulated so that if a ground clamp is connected to an electrically conductive part of the airframe, as is usually done in fueling an aircraft, the fuel filler is still not going to be grounded.

Mulled it over a while during my build, thought about soldering a conductor to the fuel filler & running it under the fabric to a ground on the airframe but never did.

Whether it is right or wrong, when I fill at a fuel pump I clamp the ground clip on to the fuel filler ring and keep the filler nozzle in constant contact with the filler ring.

When using a plastic gas can to fill the tank, I empty it into the metal tractor funnel which is screwed into the filler ring without any kind of ground. Also in the habit of filling outside the hangar and having a fire extinguishe right behind me.

What baffles me is with cars and self fueling.......people do not seem to blow themselves up in spite of the fact that all too frequently some idiot is dangling a lit cigarette over the gas hole while filling with the engine running and the kids belted into the back seat:eek:.

I try so hard to be careful while fueling either the plane or car (including chasing the people out of the thing); but, I am not 100% on the grounding issue with a Kitfox.

Is there any record of a fueling static discharge/fire incident in a kitfox? Where does theory and practice meet on this one?

Sincerely,

Dave S

[Av8r_Sed]

I don't know of a Kitfox incident specifically, but standing on a ladder pouring fuel from a plastic jug with no static dissipation is a recipe for disaster. That's how the original maintenance shop at my home airport burned down.

I have a long piece of leftover rudder cable with a drag chain on one end that stays on the ground. The other end goes through a hole in my Mr. Funnel and then threads external to the funnel and into the tank. The Mr. Funnel is static dissapative plastic. I then hook the cable on the spout of the plastic jug when I pour. I always fuel away from the hangar so if it goes up it won't take out my neighbors. It's the best I could figure out.

[HighWing]

You both pretty much anticipated my thoughts. When fueling mogas, I also use the Mr. Funnel, but always felt a little disingenuous when fueling with avgas and clicking yes after connecting the ground clamp to the exhaust stack when using the card lock system. I always wondered if that question was suggested by an attorney. As to Dave's thinking about grounding the filler neck, I did that on the 2012 Model IV using the adhesive copper tape leaded glass folks use. I didn't solder it to the filler neck worrying about ruining the tank with the heat necessary to solder to so heavy a piece of metal. Rather, I used some conductive paste under a very tightly fitted soldered loop of the copper tape that was then forced down around the filler neck. The loop was pre-soldered to some copper tape that ran on top of the tank under the fabric to a point where I could solder some regular wire that ran to the frame at the shoulder harness attachment.

Being all opened up for an annual, and with this thread in mind, I checked for continuity between the filler neck and airframe ground. Right wing 0.00 ohms left wing open circuit. I checked the connections and the ground fault was on the bolt running though the #1 rib. A twist of the nut and good to go (One more check list item for the annual). I have no recollection of practical issues with grounding either. I have watched Kitfox guys fuel using Jerry Cans in their hangar, but not me. Just curious what others are doing. Good thread.

The pic- the copper strip is typically covered with a length of white vinyl tape.

[SkySteve]

I clamp my grounding clamp to the open gas tank lip. I don't know if it really does any good at all but it's my understanding that clamping it to the exhaust pipe really doesn't do any good at all.

[jtpitkin06]

Just wondering after reading the procedures for fueling airplanes how people gas up other vehicles.

I've never used grounding cables when fueling my cars or trucks at the gas station. Don't think I've ever seen them available for cars and trucks.

I've never grounded a riding lawn mower for refueling. The lawn mower has a plastic tank and sits on rubber tires.

I use plastic fuel cans to fill up everything from weed whackers to tractors.

When purchasing fuel and filling plastic jugs the recommended procedure is to put the jug on the ground and not to fill it in the bed of the pickup. how is the plastic jug conductive sometimes and not at others?

I don't think I'm doing anything vastly different from the rest of the world but it sounds like I'm going to blow up if I'm wearing a blue sweater while fueling.

[SkySteve]

I've wondered the same thing. Why is fueling an airplane SO different from fueling anything else? Everybody I fly with hauls fuel around the desert or backcountry in either plastic jugs or Alaska Airframes rubber fuel bags, including me. Then we just either climb up on a rock or airplane tire and dump the fuel in the tank at some remote location. I have never heard of any airplane blowing up that way. What are we missing -- or not?

[SkySteve]

For what it's worth, this from a website called Experimental Aircraft Info:

"If you use a metal jerrycan with a metal or otherwise conductive funnel (Mr. Funnel), make sure the aircraft, funnel and container are touching each other during the refueling process. Any static build up is not possible then.

Metal containers dissipate the electric charge easily. Plastic containers usually not, unless they are made of conductive materials. We recommend the use of metal containers with a good jumper wire. It is so much safer."

So, the question seems to be, are plastic and rubber fuel jugs or bags required to be made of "conductive materials"? Still, everyone I know uses plastic or rubber fuel jugs or bags in the backcountry.

[Dave S]

Lowell, John & Steve....This is becoming an interesting thread. We may be on to trying to figure out what is myth and what truth.

I do like Lowell's solution to bonding the fuel filler ring without soldering....hadn't thought of that before...but if I had it to do over again....

Where does the static risk come from? Are we sure?

Like John, I use plastic cans to fuel all of my yard toys - don't seem to have any problems there.

Did some looking to see if I could find any authorative and empirical information on actual incidents....does not seem to be much on airplanes but there is some on cars. It appears static related fire incidents are pretty darn rare. I found this reference from the Petroleum Equipment Institure.

https://www.pei.org/sites/default/files/PDF/Refueling%20Fire%20Incidents.pdf

They have collected 176 incident reports in 2010 and reported in the attached link above.

Who blows themselves up at gas stations? From this report, it appears to be those people who start the pump, go sit in their car to stay warm - building up a static charge on their person due to friction between their clothing and the car's interior - go back and touch the fuel filler handle and whammo.....

I don't know if there is a take away for fueling airplanes from this report but for cars it does not seem to be only the act of simply pumping gas....seems more complicated than that; and, cigarrettes, cell phones and running engines might not indicate the greatest risk although they are certainly recommended to be avoided.

Prevention might be more than one route......good bonding to dissipate a charge in the first place; and, not building up a charge; but, I wonder if a person builds up a charge on their person and then touches a well bonded system when filling? wouldn't that make a spark?

Some addittional thoughts?

Sincerely,

Dave S
KF7 TRigear

[Pilot4Life]

So, here's my two cents....because I saw it on the Internet...LOL!

Seriously, I have put Hundreds of Thousands of gallons of fuel (JET-A, JP-8, F34) into everything from generators, to helicopters (CH-46/47/53), to airplanes and jets (F-15/16/18, B-200/300/350, C-172/183)...you get the picture. In all those scenarios, the fuel system was grounded to the earth (via the tires and hoses touching the ground) and the receptacle was subsequently grounded to the fueling system (via the tires and grounding cables).

Not to mention thousands of hours conducting sling operations while both flying and serving as the load master beneath all sorts of Marine & Army helicopters...static discharge was a major danger there!

For the Internet junkies (admittedly, we can all be one at times)...There's a myth busters video on YouTube that addresses the cell phone concern at the pump. Sometimes they're goofy and you might wonder "why do people care about this particular myth?" But this one seems relevant. The long and short, after careful consideration and not-so-scientific research, is that it's is always a bonding/grounding issue. So, unless your plane is airborne (i.e. On jacks, specifically ones that have a non-conductive surface) and a person who's built up/carrying static electricity on their person, could somehow get a metal gas can to the fuel port without touching the ground or anything that's grounded out, then yes....a static discharge could ignite gasoline vapor.

Keep your wheels in contact with the ground (discharges static electricity), keep the fuel source in contact with a conductive surface that's touching the plane (Lowell's method looks good), and make sure your discharge all static electricity you might have generated when shuffling your feet on the shag carpet that we all line our hangar/garage floors with :D and you'll be fine. Like many have said, we use different methods to fuel different things (mowers, snow sleds, quads, etc.) but they all have one thing in common....they're all touching the ground!

Take it for what it's worth....

[SkySteve]

One additional thing I have heard and read is that the static build up mainly comes from the fuel flowing through the fuel line, i.e. the feeder hose and nozzle. Reference has been made that a car or truck does not hold enough fuel to cause much of a fuel line static to build on its own, while an airplane holds so much more fuel than a car, truck, tractor, 4 wheeler, lawn mower, etc allowing static to build in the feeder fuel line as fuel passes through it. If that is true, my little 6 gallon wing tanks should never be a problem!

[HighWing]

Definitely more than meets the eye. All good info.

[jiott]

A further thought: we are all assuming that the Kitfox fiberglass fuel tanks are totally insulated from the aircraft frame. I am not sure this is true. I know clean fiberglass is a good insulator, but maybe our tanks have some coatings or the fuel itself that allows some conductivity. The tanks touch the aluminum spars possibly thru thin spots in the silicone adhesive. The fabric and paint that touch the metal filler neck may be somewhat conductive, especially the silver UV paint with all the little aluminum particles in it. I have a strong hunch that there are many paths to ground the filler neck to the aircraft frame although none of them are real good, but probably good enough to dissipate a small static charge. Therefore, when you use the traditional grounding cable and attach it to your exhaust pipe you are actually making an adequate ground connection. This along with reasonable common sense, smoking etc., may be why there are nearly no incidents of fire.

Still leaves the question of filling with plastic jugs and no grounding cable.

[SkySteve]

This from the EAA Website: "The plastic gas cans we buy at Wal-Mart are made of a conductive plastic."
They go on to say it is important to hold the plastic gas can spout on the edge of the wing tank filler rather than hold the gas can spout in the middle of the wing tank filler, not touching any part of it. Apparently touching and holding the two while pouring fuel into the wing tank is the key. The same idea as letting the fuel nozzle rest against the fuel tank filler neck of your automobile at an auto gas station.

[n85ae]

Grumman E-2C's I worked on in the Navy would give you a heck of a shock
if they weren't grounded on occasion if you walked up and just touched one
after flight. So I totally understand the need to ground them. I've had that
with certain cars as well depending on the kind of soles my shoes had ...
Where the car would zap me.

Jeff

[Dick B in KY]

How many planes were refueled during WW II without grounds, using barrels, hand pumps and whatever was around in the middle of nowhere? I don't recall seeing many pics of planes blowing up during those operations. Being safe is always a concern and common sense is always best.

Dick B

PS - I use plastic cans to fuel my a/c all the time.

[t j]

Okay here's my personal experience with static from plastic gas jugs. Sometimes when pouring fuel out of my plastic jugs I could hear a faint crackling sound. Kind of like radio static.

One time I was pouring fuel into my pickup in the dark. The static sound was going on and then I noticed flashes of light like miniature lightning flashes inside the base of the translucent plastic gas jug spout while fuel was running through it. Scared the crap out of me.

These gas jugs had pieces of foam rubber inside the spouts...to serve as filters. I took the foam out of the spout and the crackling and lightning stopped and I haven't heard it or seen it sense.

My theory is gasoline flowing through the foam filters was generating static and the only reason I hadn't blown myself up was that the air/fuel mixture in the spout was too rich to ignite. If I hadn't happened to pour fuel in the dark I would have never figured out what that sound was.

Here's another true personal experience. I worked for a Mobile fuel distributor when I was a kid. This guy would check the fuel level in his snowmobile at night using a lit match held in the opening of the filler neck to see the fuel level. Scared the crap out of everyone but him. His theory was that the temperature was too cold for gasoline to give off fumes the match could ignite.

One hazard in my opinion is plastic gas jugs carried in plastic pickup bed liners. If you slide the fuel jug on the plastic truck bed it creates static. I made a wood box to carry my fuel jugs in the back of my pickup. I set the jugs on the ground before filling them at the gas station and set them on the ground again after I carry them to the airplane to fuel it up.

[Paul Z]

I knew a man that owned Philips Flying Ranch east of Rockwall Texas. He had several aircraft, including a Stearman BiPlane. He was filling his Stearman with 5 Gallon Plastic Gas cans and a spark. He said he watched it go up in flames in a matter of seconds.

[SkySteve]

I have a fuel bag sold by Airframes Alaska which I always carry with me in the backcountry to refuel. It is designed for, and used to refuel aircraft in the Alaska bush. It is "OD Green" in color and made of some type of rubbery material. Very strong and lays flat when empty. Many, if not all of you are familiar with it. I wonder why (and if) this bag is "OK"? They sell it as an aviation refueling bag.

[PapuaPilot]

Using plastic jugs can be very risky like several have mentioned. Plastic is very good at creating static but a poor conductor. The standard we use where I work is to wipe a plastic jug with a damp cloth before refueling. This gets rid of the static.

When I flew float planes I just dunked the fuel jugs in the river before refueling. I have safely done LOTS of refueling from plastic jerry cans. When I flew the amphib TU206 I usually launched with one way fuel and had to refill it just to get back home. Ahh, memories of standing on top of the wing, while the plane bobbed in the waves, having to fill up to 40 gallons (8 jugs) of avgas just to get back home. I did one way fuel to maximize the useful load. The amphib TU206 with me and minimum fuel could only carry about 300 lbs. With full fuel I could only take 30 lbs! When I started flying the amphib I called it the "useless" load. That's because a wheel 206 can carry around 1000 lbs, I flew a normally aspirated 206 that I could load a little over 1100 lbs of cargo on short flights.

We also use a Mr. Funnel which does a great job of filtering and keeping water out of your tanks, EXCEPT if you get the entire screen wet with water. In that case water can pass. I know first hand, it led to my only engine power loss, which was in the amphib 206. Fortunately I was at altitude when the power loss happened, which was just after switching to the right fuel tank. I was able to go back to the left tank and continue on without incident. I often think back to what might have happened if I had taken off on the right tank. :eek: At my next landing I discovered the right tank had 1-2 gallons of water in it from refueling. I didn't notice the water when I refueled. It got through the Mr. Funnel when the screen was entirely covered by water from one of the jugs.

[Paul Z]

I looked at those Jugs. Man they are pricy!