Newbie. Dumb pre-sales questions.

[enewmen]

Hi All.
Happy I'm able to post now, but not sure if this is the best place.

I felt deprived of space in urban apartments my whole life. I'm moving to a small farm in rural Wisconsin and I thought it can make a good landing strip.

I'm in flight school and been reading about Kitfox for a long time. So I'm getting closer to buying one. The plane looks like a fantastic STOL/BUSH ride with many accessible places in grass airports or some BLM areas..
So I'm trying to get the a Kitfox to take-off from a 1200' back-yard then do cross-country work to get to those remote locations.

So, is it possible to buy a Kitfox ESLA based on the SLSA with about 90-100% completed? Then have autopilot (that comes with Dynon glass for example) & other instruments installed for me to help with the cross-country travel while I need to check an aviation chart ? Asking about the autopilot because I didn't find that in the parts catalog.

Then after buying, I can ask about a 16 hour (LSRI) course for that plane, intro to Kitfox specific flight training, Tail-wheel Endorsement, and Mountain-Flying Proficiency training.

Is all this possible? Can someone point me in the right direction?

thanks!

[tx_swordguy]

I am not 100% sure on this but I believe the ELSA birds are mostly gone now (I believe it was a way for the FAA to get the fat ultralight birds of many flavors to become registered and legal and ended around 2008) The repairmans course you are thinking about can be taken and used if you are the builder of the plane. If you find a project that is not in airworthiness trials yet and all the photos, building logs etc to convince the DAR that you built it when he does the airworthiness, you should be able to go the repairmans route and do your own conditional inspections. The kitfox 1-7 were never designed to be flown in 103 ultralight, so I seriously doubt there were any completed as ELSA. Experimental Amateur Built is a different class of certification with different parameters. Now with all this said anyone can work on an experimental aircraft, the sign off on conditional inspection is the only thing that required a signoff by an A&P or IA. If all this is wrong hopefully someone will correct me but this is my understanding. As for the autopilot I am sure anything is possible, but the plane should be able to be trimmed to fly level for you to look at charts for short times (or just get a small car gps that shows off road travel as a back up). Not sure I would want to be plotting a whole new flight plan in the air anyway.

[WWhunter]

1200' is more than enough for an experienced pilot at WI. altitudes. I'm not far from you, being in north central Mn. I originally put in a 1,000' strip at my place. This was surrounded by the proverbial 50' trees. I used to keep my Champ here and now keep a RANS S7 here. I recently lengthened it, so now have 17-1800' and am hoping to get my 172 in here also.
If you have fields or open areas a 1,000' strip should be fine once you learn how to fly the KF.

Not really sure on what you are wanting in regards to your other questions though. You can buy a quick build kit that has a lot of the harder work done but that will cost you money (lots) or the standard kit and do your own work. I am under the impression from your post that you really aren't interested in doing much building. Your 90-100% completed question can be done if you find a kit at that stage of completion. Not many out there in that catagory but you will find a bunch in the 50% stage.

I bought one that is probably close to that 90% completion. I purchased it for my son but he ended up buying a Cessna 170B so these planes are out there, just harder to find.

Auto pilot, sure, if you want one go ahead and install one. Personally I just think it is added weight and costs/complexity for these small planes. Not sure what your financial limit is but that panel and auto piot is going to be a sizeable portion of the completed cost of the plane.

[Flybyjim]

I am building a SS7 at this time. I bought the quick build kit and hope to have it in the air in2017, I just started the build this past November. I work 50 hours a week for $$$ and so my build time is small amounts of time. I do/have taken some weekend time and worked long days 10 hours to complete larger tasks. I have built a couple of planes before and I like the Kitfox manual best, easy to follow and you can start either with the fuselage or the wings or switch back and forth depending on your needs. I also have a 1200 foot airfield on my farm that I fly a Rans S7 and a Champ out of, no problem at all with either. I have no concerns with the Kitfox. I had the opportunity to fly John's Kitfox and 1200 feet is much more runway needed for this plane. Good adventures in your journey, there are many on this site with more experience than I so these are just my thoughts.
Jim in Pa.

[Paul Z]

SLSA can be converted to an ELSA. I was talking to Kitplanes “Ask The DAR” Mel Asberry. He does the inspections for the Legend Cubs SLSA in Sulphur Springs, Texas. Mel said he says he quite frequently inspects, the Plane as an SLSA for one of their Customers, and then immediately does the paperwork to convert it to an ELSA. They then deliver the plane to an A&P to do requested conversions to the Legend Cub prior to delivery to the customer.

[WWhunter]

If I understand things correctly....once it has been converted to the ESLA catagory does that not take it out of the catagory where the owner can take the 16 hour class to be able to sign off his own work?

All this stuff can get quite confusing. Isn't the SLSA the only catagory that a person can get a repairmans certificate, besides the EAB catagory of course, but that is for the original builder?
From my understanding the only people that can get this 'certificate' are for the SLSA planes and they have to be built exactly like the factory built/sold versions. Maybe there are exceptions, like getting a factory authorized change but this catagory seems quite restrictive. The benefit to the catagory is its ability to be used for rental/training, am I correct?

Besides the EAB catagory of course, but that is for the original builder.

Am I totally confused? Most likely!

[enewmen]

Thanks for the posts!

Let me explain a little more to help understand my crazy plan.
The kind of flying I want to do is take the plane on long rides from Wisconsin to places like Idaho where a Kitfox does very well in. Then to the Bahamas and on to Anchorage.
My thinking is if I can get a Kitfox "decked out" with glass, turbo, AP, etc., it can make all day cruising with oxygen at altitude easier. (I'll never plan to make new flight plan in the air anyway). Then fly "low-and-slow" when I arrive.

If I don't need a large useful load, I can save a lot by not getting a larger certified cross-country aircraft and keeping the plane in a barn instead of an airport hangar. So, a "decked out" Kitfox will also cost a lot less than a 1980s C-206 (for example), I'll be using a lot less fuel, and spend a lot less on maintenance! I understand a larger plane will offer a faster/smoother cruising flight, but the Kitfox should be a lot more fun.

@ WWhunter. Your correct assuming I didn't want to do a full build.
I'm not against doing a normal build. But after I get my PPL, I won't have a plane to fly for a year until the build is done. - I can rent a C-172, but rather not.

I searched and didn't find any used Kitfox planes configured for cross-country flying. So it seems I have 2 choices:
Get a SLSA with the glass, AP, turbo. etc. with every option I want. Then keep it as-is or convert to ESLA & do LSRI (like Paul Z said) . I don't think I can alter/add much after the factory build is complete (Factory upgrade or personal upgrade).
OR
If that's not possible, just do a normal EAB the way I want it. I'll just need to learn a lot, invest in some tools, and put in plenty of work.

EDIT: Maybe either way it's a good idea to get a 120 hour Light Sport Repairman's certificate like Av8r3400 said. Doesn't sound like much if I spend 500 some hours on a build.

Please correct if I made any obvious problems with this plan.

[tx_swordguy]

don't know what your $$$ situation is but the 120 hr class is not cheap (to me) so make sure it is something that will work for you and what you want to do. I am thinking those are ambitious flying dreams for a kitfox (but look at what the flying pioneers did) If you deck out a kitfox (read make it heavy) it will not be the super STOL plane you might think it is, so keep that in mind with what you are wanting to do with it. I think the 7 may be more what you are looking for than the model 4 I am wanting. This site is a wealth of information so I suggest you spend some time searching and asking questions before you drop money. going from the bahamas to alaska is a LONG trip in a plane pushing maybe 100kts especially with a headwind in the 30-40 kt speed at oxygen alt. If you go with a 3-4 doubt you will see 100kts anyway so think even slower. Not that it wouldn't make for heck of a story and if you aren't in a hurry to get there why not do it that way. If you are interested perhaps you could rent a 150 and take it on a long trip to see if you are interested in that ( different but similar size cockpits) probably slightly faster cruise speed but close enough to give you an idea of what you might be dealing with.

[avidflyer]

Not sure if you saw it, but there was a Kitfox 5 unfinished project on barnstormers for $11,000 if my memory was correct. Needed a lot of work yet, and I think FWF. That would be a good head start in the direction of where you seem to be going. Cheaper than starting with a factory new kit as well. Others have toured the US in a Cub, but better not be tied to a schedule or deadline. The kitfox will be faster than a cub, but not by a tremendous amount. All that being said, the owner of this website flew from Az. to Mn. in a Kitfox 4 100 HP in one day so it's not impossible either. Jim Chuk

[Esser]

Any plane can be a cross country plane if you have the right attitude. I don't think you would add much weight to have a turned plane with a basic autopilot. However, if you want to go places, a glasair sports man 2+2 might be the plane for you. You pay for that speed though

[fastj22]

I've flown my Sonex from Colorado to Airventure twice with my son. Very tight quarters, almost no baggage, but the Sonex is pretty quick and we were able to do it in 6.5 hours. If looking for a fast, no frills, XC machine, perhaps its a better choice.

[DesertFox4]

Kind of wondering how many million cross country miles an aircraft design has to fly before it is finally considered cross country capable? John and Paul have pretty much proven that about the Kitfox all by themselves.

Why leave all your baggage at home, give up comfort in the cockpit or STOL performance and economy of operations? After flying the latest Kitfox on many cross country trips, I would highly recommend it.

You may get to your destination a little faster in some other designs, but you'll never get there funner.

[Rodney]

If you have some patience, sooner or later a Kitfox like you want, or very close to it will come along.

I bought a beautiful 7SS all decked out with an AFS 4500 EFIS, two axis auto pilot, mode S xponder and Icom A210. The previous owner tied my Ifly 720 into the auto pilot before I flew it home. Airplane weighs 819 lbs. 912ULS had 130 hous on it when I got it. Am doing my best to wear out the engine:):)

The Kitfox with altitude hold, tracking the GPS is a wonderful cross country airplane. It can carry all the baggage we need and still climb twice as fast as my previous 172. My wife loves how smooth the Rotax is.

Building is great,but I saved three years of building time by finding my dream Kitfox.

Don't settle for a lesser airplane. Can you tell???? I love my Kitfox

Regards
Rodney

[kitfox2009]

Last June I flew my 16 year old Vixen to the Yukon. Due to weather I elected to fly the Trench north bound and Dease Lake south bound. Trip is about 980 nautical miles either way. I file for 90 knots and it usually comes close.Fuel burn 15 litres hour. Two fuel stops each way. Lots of daylight in June so I flew over 10 hours each way.
From my crosscounry experiences ,quite often weather will be your limiting factor for most longer excursions. Even if you go all out with pressurization,oxygen,auto pilot, and more importantly YEAR'S OF EXPERIENCE weather will still come in to play.
I like the suggestion of renting a 150 for a weekend and do a 1000 miler before you get too spendy on your KF.
These airplanes are fun to fly. Take your time, Enjoy the trip.
Cheers
Don
Vixen 912UL IVO IFA. C-FOXK

[tx_swordguy]

I guess I just assumed you would be flying these long trips with a passenger. If you are doing this solo you would probably be perfectly fine in any of the kitfoxes. If you are packing 2 into a 39" wide cabin for 10 hrs of flying with baggage etc, I am thinking it might get cramped. There are baggage pods available, but shoulder etc room on multi day 10 hr flights would likely be something to think about. If you have a willing passenger and are only doing this once a yr it will probably be ok. If your passenger likes to "spread out" on long trips and gets irritated easily, the trip might not be so fun in a cramped cockpit. The problem comes into what is wanted vs what is affordable. My wife aks "what about the kids, and dogs, and all my luggage?" Sorry baby I can't afford an 8 passenger twin and the kids are grown and don't go anywhere with us anyway......... for 99% of my flying it will be solo.

ps. it is not that the kitfox isn't a cross country airplane, many have proven it is quite capable at that. You can ride cross country on a bicycle but you won't find me doing it (at least not with the wife lol). It is like anything else, a compromise. If it does one thing REALLY good it probably won't be quite as good at doing something else. (speed/comfort vs FUN, STOL, birds eye view of everything)

[HighWing]

I ran onto this link a couple of days ago. I think it addresses some of the questions in this thread pretty well.
http://www.teamkitfox.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=355

[happiestflying]

I bought a Kitfox IV Speedster in Colorado last summer, never having flown around there. I returned it to Washington state. I got my certificate mid-life, now a 650 hour pilot and have had a tailwheel endorsement for 10 years, though it was totally rusty prior to buying the Speedster.

The pre-purchase inspection, necessary repairs, condition inspection, and tailwheel refresher took almost two weeks. Longer than I'd hoped, but absolutely worth all the time, as it allowed me flight planning time. My choices were essentially northbound along the front range of the Rockies and then westbound from Montana (which portion of the route I'd flown about five times previously), or westbound over the Rockies and northwestbound through Utah, Idaho, Oregon and Washington where I'd never flown, and which has a lot of lonely and empty. After a lot of consultation with my own gurus and with local pilots in Colorado I chose a zero-dark-thirty departure westbound over the Rockies and then northwestbound as indicated. All went well.

For navigation I of course had sectionals and AFD's etc, but fundamentally I relied on my iPad 2 (without GPS) and Foreflight Pro($150). I put a suction-cup mount ($25) on the panel, with a velcro fuzzy on the mount, and have velcro hooks on the back of the iPad. The velcro allows me to quickly remove and replace it on the mount, should I need to have it in my lap for revising something or clarification. That prevents finger-jiggle errors. It IS possible to create a flight plan in flight, but best done on the ground. I had a Dual XGPS-160 ($150) which synced with both the iPad and my iPhone, giving me precision navigation, with Foreflight giving me terrain alerts, estimated ranges etc. I would NOT fly without such an arrangement again. Now, for purposes of the legalities, the sectionals and pilotage were my primary navigational tools, but for purposes of reality the iPad/Foreflight combination was awesome.

Since then I have purchased/constructed (assembled really) a Stratux ADSB-In dual unit ($125) which syncs with the aforementioned equipment and gives me weather and traffic alerting (for ADSB-OUT equipped aircraft at least) and is almost the last missing link. If you were willing to pay close to $1,000 you could buy the Stratus 2 unit which would give you synthetic vision and 3D terrain. Fundamentally, for a few thousand dollars at most you can have in your cockpit the capabilities that previously required tens of thousands of dollars.

I'll admit that there's a certain amount of cockpit clutter in this arrangement, but I've positioned most everything in the cleanest way possible, and have arrived at a working solution that is flexible, powered by the USB cigarette lighter on the panel, and allows in-flight changes and reviews from both the iPad and the iPhone.

This changes the game for your aircraft purchase options. Find a Kitfox that you like that has the flying characteristics, landing gear and power options that you want, and don't worry so much about the panel. Learn to fly the airplane and enjoy it for what it is, something that's low and slow, fun as all get out, and can in fact be a cross-country bird if you want. By the time you actually get around to that wonderful-sounding Alaska excursion you'll be completely comfortable with all the capabilities I've described above.

Best of luck and safe flying.

[enewmen]

Hi all.

Thank you for all the posts.
I still see a Kitfox in my future, but I'll change my goals a little. First I'll build/buy a plane with basic instrumentation & radio and just enjoy the kind of flying the Kitfox is good at. I'll also get experience flying without the fancy glass, synthetic vision, checking weather reports without the help of real-time weather maps, flying strait for long distance without an autopilot, etc. If I need GPS later, I can get hand-held solutions like happiestflying suggested. Yes, I still plan to fly cross-country & solo usually, so the weight limits shouldn't be a problem. When I'm ready for a 2nd plane, I'll understand better what I need and it may be decked out like my original plan.

I thought of getting better performance using a turbo at altitude with oxygen, but the kitfox is still a LSA and just not that kind of plane. If I put on a powerful Rotax 915 iS, I think I can exceed 150mph TAS @ > 10000', but that will exceed the Vne.

Why fly from the the Bahamas to Anchorage? Because I've never been there, so I don't know if I will like it! I also don't know if I'll like such a long/slow flight. First I'll rent a plane to see if I like flying all day - I expect I will.