How much difference does a pax make to landing?

[rosslr]

Well, I can sort of answer my own question but .... would love your thoughts/reflections from the wiser and experienced on this site.

I know have about 70 hrs on the plane and for the last 10 or so hrs have been really setting out to nail the approaches, flares and roll outs in different configurations and then applying them to different scenarios. Mostly I do this each morning for about 3/4hr and by myself. I have noticed a pattern creeping in where I get really good results by myself - then often someone calls by and we go for a circuit and I bugger it up - usually in the flair. The result is a bounce. I am starting to think I am not compensating for the extra weight and using the same approach speed and flair as I do for just me in the plane. My thinking is that, with the extra weight, the speed and flair is not sufficient to compensate for the extra weight and results in kissing the ground a bit early (not pretty)! Maybe I should compensate with an extra 3-5 kts approach speed with the extra weight?

All thoughts/advice appreciated as it will help my thought process in sorting this!

cheers

r

[Kitfox Guy]

I am not a CFI, but I do have about 500 hours in my Kitfox IV so I will take a stab at your question. Most of my flights are solo but every now and then I take up a passenger. I don't know if it is really necessary to add a few knots on approach when carrying a passenger. In landing my KF I basically make a gradual descent until I feel the KF go in to "ground effect", then I gradually reduce the throttle to idle and use the stick to let the plane "settle in"and gently touch down on the wheels. With time you will be able to gently land your aircraft without looking at the airspeed indicator. You develop a feel for your planes approach, flair, and settle in velocities. The other thing I have found that helps with landings is to avoid the temptation to look down at the ground underneath you. If you focus your vision further out to the horizon you will find not only is it easier to keep the plane straight, but your awareness of your proximity to the ground is better. I surmise your brain is better able to process info garnered from looking at the horizon (real not artificial) than looking at the ground underneath you. So when I am carrying added weight I don't think I increase my airspeed per se, but I do use the same approach, flair, and "settle in" rates.

[tommg13780]

Rosslr,

Are you going for a 3 point landing or wheel landing?

A well executed wheel landing with some increased speed at flare (55-60 mph) will get rid of that bounce when carrying more weight/warm temperatures. Of course this approach will lengthen landing roll. If you do get a bounce with the wheel landing get accustomed to some nose down stick to suppress and dampen it.

My airplane exaggerates this sinking tendency due to the clip wing. I have found that with full fuel, a passenger and warm temperature I keep the speed up to 70mph through the flare and then scrub off speed to get a touch down at 55-60 mph. I really hate to taking a passenger/student out for a nice ride and then show them an amateurish bounced landing for the finale.

[LSaupe]

You can also follow the change in stall-speed-with-gross-weight (speed roughly increases with the square root of the total aircraft weight ratio). Increase your speeds by that amount plus a few knots for safety factor.

Can practice with strapped in weight in increments as well. Some of the folks here strap in bags of corn meal. Not sure what others are using.

[t j]

The only difference I notice with a passenger is the sink rate increases. Solo I pull the power to idle abeam the numbers and don't need to add any. Ususaly have to add some forward slip to touch down on the numbers.

With a passenger if I make all my turns at the same spots I need to add power on final to make it to the runway.

[Kitfox Guy]

You said what I was trying to convey in a more succinct manner. Namely, your speed need not change but you may have to use more power to attain the speed when carrying extra weight.

[jiott]

I basically do the same as TJ; since the sink rate is somewhat higher with pax I must start the flare just a touch earlier and maybe flare just a little more.

[Peteohms]

My plane doesn't bounce nearly as high with a passenger. 😉

[rosslr]

Thanks to all for your thoughts on this - it helps consolidate my thinking in the absence of other kitfoxers nearby - now to practice and perfect the technique!

r

[n85ae]

If I have my kids in the plane, I don't notice the difference, if I have
somebody in the medium to large adult category there's a big increase
in sinkrate. I generally don't have any problem with it, but I probably do
a lot of little things to compensate (carry a little extra speed, and maybe
some power into the flare, etc).

Get somebody fat and take them flying, and do a bunch of takeoffs and
landings, that will help.

It's all about practicing the thing which you have problems with.

Jeff


Well, I can sort of answer my own question but .... would love your thoughts/reflections from the wiser and experienced on this site...

[jiott]

With a heavy passenger, I actually notice more difference in the takeoff. If I use my normal solo technique of raising the tail a moderate amount and then just letting it fly off when its ready, with a pax it starts getting light on its feet before its ready to fly and it just dances around for a while. If there is any x-wind whatsoever during this dancing phase I find myself fighting to maintain centerline. So with a pax I change my T/O technique somewhat and lift the tail higher and keep it there longer to stay planted on the ground until its definitely ready to fly, then a little back pressure and we are smoothly off.

[rosslr]

Get somebody fat and take them flying, and do a bunch of takeoffs and landings, that will help.

Can you be a bit more specific please Jeff - Gayle does not have fat so I have kicked her out of the PAX seat for a while. I did find one very fat candidate but thought I might have trouble fitting in besides him! I think I now have a nicely rounded fat person (abit like myself). Pictures would help a lot.

cheers

ross

[rosslr]

Now to be serious .... Went flying today with Gayle - all 48kg of her and decided to get her to watch the ASI right on touch down and aimed to touch the tail first - got it three times in a row so happy with that and it makes for a very stable landing - you all know that but it is pleasing to have it soted in my mind!. Here's my 'recipe' for a standard circuit approach that seems to be yielding good results. cut power to 3000rpm on DW and trim to 55kts with one stage flaps. Maintain 55kts base and turn final at 350-400ft. Trim for 49-50kts on final, pwr as required to maintain approach to aiming pt. Bleed off pwr into flair and go for tail wheel first - touch down is 38-40kts.

thanks for all your input - just need a few fat people now to establish the pwr settings on final....


cheers

ross

[Rooster]

Thanks to CC Pocock, here are a couple of things to consider.....

I found that with the KF5 and a heavy engine such as a Franklin, having fat people with me is not that bad:).

I actually add about 20kg ( Lbs :confused: 44:rolleyes:) of sand ballast in my baggage comp when solo.

The pages are in the wrong order, so you can sort through them and read it.
A very interesting book and his courses are world renowned.

[Rooster]

Page 48 of "Bush and Mountain Flying" by CC. Pocock.

ISBN number - 978-0-620-49666-7

[rv9ralph]

Surprisingly, this YouTube video from Backcountry Flyers demonstrates this type of approach described on page 48.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrPJac80W9Y&spfreload=1

Ralph

[DesertFox4]

Good video Ralph, thanks.

[Jono]

Can you be a bit more specific please Jeff - Gayle does not have fat so I have kicked her out of the PAX seat for a while...

I probably qualify as the nicely rounded fat person!
I try to keep a trickle of power on during the flare with an adult pax... you've seen first hand that it doesn't always work as I can "bounce bigger and better than the best of them"
Jono

[Paul Z]

I have never have a bad landing, top dat I have been able to walk away from them all. So by my definition they have all been good landings. I must admit some are a lot uglier than others.

[happiestflying]

Amongst the many benefits of having a GoPro mounted above and behind my head is the chance to review every takeoff and landing, not just from memory or the observations of a (fat?) passenger, but from the actual video. I've been working on the same landing issues as this thread, and have noticed from video review that my stall speeds are much much lower than I would have guessed. I say guessed, because I'm not looking at the airspeed indicator during landing.

I find the concept of "and a few knots extra for safety" to be something that adds in a lot of extra landing distance, which is just fine in many circumstances, but not so good for the kinds of landings I'm hoping to achieve consistently. Perhaps a relatively high angle of attack, a steep descent, and a "juicing" of power at the proper instant needed to arrest that descent is more effective for me than carrying extra speed.

When I have a passenger, the "juicing" comes a little sooner, and lasts a little longer. It's not particularly related to the flare, because at the speeds I'm using for approach a big flare input would just result in a stall/drop-it-in kind of landing.

I love the GoPro for one other reason, which is using the video in combination with Google Earth's ruler to measure my landing distances. No more guessing, I can tell precisely how long it took to get it stopped. The only variables I can't observe are reported wind conditions and pilot readiness.