Kitfox SS won't start

[Paul Z]

Well I flew from Dallas to Meridian MS. I got up this morning, to leave for Sebring. The plane will not start crank, and crank, and crank. No signs of life. I put a charger on the battery, and called Ronny Smith South Mississippi Rotax, and John McBean. John thought it might be a bad battery, Ron thought it was the electronic modules. I replace the battery, humm cranks faster. No spark. I replace the electronic modules after driving 98 miles to Ron to borrow a set of modules. Neither worked, and I put the old modules back in.

I was thinking of renting a uhaul and remove the wings put them in the back of the uhaul, and rent a auto hauler trailer than drive it to Sebring.

I plan on calling all 4 Rotax repairmen in Mississippi to see if one could come help me get it running. I don't have timing light, volt ohm meter or other tools that are needed to trouble shoot.

Any recommendation.

[cubtractor]

What type of ignition switch do you have? Could it be shorted out?

[Av8r3400]

+2 on the failure of the Off-Left-Right-Both-Start switch. I had mine fail with the same results. :(

Go to the local auto parts store and get two heavy duty toggle switches and a button for the start function, along with the needed wire and connectors. This may be a bit of a project away from home, but do-able.

[Av8r3400]

(I also moved this to it's own thread for future reference.)

[Paul Z]

+2 on the failure of the Off-Left-Right-Both-Start switch. I had mine fail with the same results. :(

Go to the local auto parts store and get two heavy duty toggle switches and a button for the start function, along with the needed wire and connectors. This may be a bit of a project away from home, but do-able.

I have one of the Off-Left-Right-Both-Start switch. It will crank the engine. But I do not know if it is getting voltage to the electronics.

[kmach]

I am also thinking a p lead grounding problem , possibly a fault in the switch.

Sorry to hear of your problem really bad timning for you.

[Paul Z]

Anyone looking for a slightly used Kitfox?

[gregsgt]

Any inline fuses or circuit breakers between the battery and engine?

I had a boat that blew an inline fuse on the outboard after a thunderstorm. All it did was crank. I just about went crazy trying to fix it for days only to have it be a stupid fuse.

[Paul Z]

I've been working on the Rotax 912 ULS, I have replaced the battery, it does spin a lot faster when attempting to start. I have tried swapping the electronics modules with some I borrowed from Southern Mississippi Rotax yesterday, but neither did the trick, it still doesn't start. In working on it, I notice the small angle bracket that holds the dual coil mounts assembly number 29 part numer 851-266 on the front pilots side had broken again. Replacing that will be my 4th bracket. I even order 2 brackets the last time I worked on it because so I would have a spare. A lot of good that did me, it's in my tool box in Dallas. The dual coil mount assemblies look to be held in place by a total of the three rubber isolation mounts. It does bounce around a lot when the bracket shears. I'm guessing it may be a broken ground wire or a wire associated to the coils due to all of the vibration because the mount having broken. I'll call in to tech support to see where to look for the grounds or wires.

[N981MS]

If the problem is in the switch on a Continental or Lycoming you can remove the P lead at the magneto and it should run. Their mags are always hot unless you ground them which is what the switch does to shut them off.

If you remove the P lead the engine should be regarded as ready to run with a bump of the prop. Thus it is not safe to leave it in this configuration on the ground.

[Av8r3400]

Since the "P" leads from the CDIs are the only means of shutting down the engine on a Rotax, this would be highly unadvisable.

You could disconnect them, or one, from the switch and try rotating the engine (with plugs removed) and checking for spark. This would give you a sense of if the switch is the issue.

Just don't crank the engine with the plugs out too much or you will fill the crankcase with oil. The crankcase pressure is what returns the engine oil o the oil tank.

[Dave S]

Paul,

The Module grounds should be on the right side - two separate black wires - one from each module and they should go to two separate mounting screws on the right intake manifold.

Dave S

[Slyfox]

sorry to hear about your troubles. being out of town with an engine that doesn't start is frustrating. The older model 4 use to break this bracket all the time and then the engine wouldn't start. the fix was to take on the bracket where the grounds are hooked up and put a nice ground wire to the negative of the battery. then take that whole assembly and mount it to the motor mount instead of the engine, then the bracket holding the electronic gismos had a nice solid mount that didn't break. I would at this point try to affix a connection with wire or some sort across the break and see if the engine will start, if so, get some wire and connect the grounding wires direct to the battery and get it home. good luck.

[Dusty]

I was talking to our rotax guru who is just back from a rotax course,dodgy spark plug caps can cause a non start,something peculiar to wast spark systyms
Maybe

[Paul Z]

Well we got her running again.

I replaced the battery per John's Recommendation, it was 3 years old. The engine turned a heck of a lot faster but still no spark.

I called Ronny Smith and told him after having pulled and replaced the modules, and told him no luck. I put back on my original modules. It didn't turn out to be the p-leads, the ignition switch, a bad ground, bad coils, bad electronics modules. Six or so months ago, I had a problem with my pilots side Carburator barfing fuel so I sent it out to be rebuilt by a Rotax Repair shop. I can remember a conversation at Oshkosh 2014 with John about not having a particular shop rebuilding carbs because of problems he had with the rebuilds. I'm sure you all remember the float problem. According to the year of manufacture & serial numbers for the engine build and the carburetors it did not apply to my engine. At the time, I had checked the weight of all of my floats, and they were good, so I basically determined it did not apply to my carb's floats. John McBean told me it might be the floats. However, I knew my floats were good, and I just had my recent Carb Barfing problem fixed, having sent my carb in to be rebuilt.

I pulled the lower cowling, I knew couldn't be the problem. I knew I didn't have the tools (scale) need to do the job or the parts (floats). I decided I needed some help so I checked the Rotax Site for Rotax and found 4 people. The first was Ronie Smith owner of Southern Mississippi Rotax, I asked if he could come up but he was busy. Ronny put me on to Coley because Ronny was in the shop alone.

Coley Richardson, the 2nd on the list I found, from near Jackson, a Great Rotax Mechanic to work with. Coley drove over to help. Coley and I pulled the float bowls from the co pilots side carb removed the floats. We weighed the Co-Pilot on a digital scale he had, and two thumbs they were within speck. We then pulled the floats from the Pilot side that was recently rebuilt, one float was within spec, the other was kind of "fat". Coley pulled out a box of floats from previous repairs and we started weighing floats. We found a 2nd slightly used float that met spec. And we put it in. We put her all back together and then tried starting. She's Alive! She was running, extremely rough but She's Alive. We pulled it back the hanger, and decided to check the needle valves. We pulled the floats the weight was good, and next we pulled the needle valve, the Flat tab on the float bracket was bent down. We cleaned the needle valve, cleaned the seat, bent the tab strait, and put it all back together. Started her and she Purred like a Cute Little Kitten. Coley and I basically concurred it was a poor carb rebuild. We stabilized the coils with some zip ties. I'll get a new bracket in Sebring, and have them put it on. I also plan on ordering some new floats all around. We also replaced spark plugs, I had a spare set under the seat. Without the availability of spare parts, a volt ohm meter, and a small drug dealers scale I was stranded.

If you are ever stranded in Meridian, or Jackson MS, and break down do not hesitate to contact Coley Richardson. He might be the Sanford & Son of Rotax Mechanics but he did a great job. He drove from Jackson, and got me running. He has quite a few Rotax spare parts, although you might get some used parts. He treated me very well on price, for a full day's work, trouble shooting and working. It cost me $400 for a full day's work, and his 3 to 4 hour round trip drive.

I'm off to Sebring.

[ken nougaret]

Excellent news Paul. I've been feeling your pain and kept checking into the forum to see if you had found the problem. Maybe I'll see you at Sebring. I won't be able to make it till that Saturday. Ken

[Av8r3400]

I'm glad to hear you're running again. Excellent job.

It's going to be a high of zero Fahrenheit here today. I'd love to be stranded in Jackson Mississippi.

[Esser]

Well I am late to the party but glad to hear you got it sorted out.

Gas engines need spark, fuel, or compression. Take one away and it won't run. In the future, for anyone reading this, if you have a carbureted engine and it is turning over and not starting, spray some fuel directly in the intake. If the engine fires but doesn't catch you know it's not an electrical issue and it is a fuel delivery issue.

[Paul Z]

I detoured my route to Florida. I stopped at 22MS Sky Landing airport near Lucedale MS. I got to land on a pretty nice grass strip. The center pole for the irrigation line was right at the end of runways 31. A little nerve racking, but not really an issue. I stopped to have Ronnie Smith look at it, to thank him for his assistance and to try to pay him for his efforts. He wouldn't take any money. After about an hour, I headed out flying east, flew through the smoke of a pretty big controlled burn, stopped and got fuel at KCEW Sikes, the headed for KTLH Tallahassee. Now to go out for some food. I'll need about 3.0 hours of flying and I'll be in Sebring.

Thanks for all of the moral support and suggestions.

10437

[kmach]

Glad your on your way.

[HighWing]

I've been reading and hoping. I have never been stranded away from home and can't imagine.

A thought. Another thing I can't imagine is that a single bad float will prevent an engine from even coughing on an attempted start. I wonder if all the effort diagnosing the problem and the fixes didn't jostle something elsewhere. Just hoping that the fix was the real fix needed.

[avidflyer]

Good point Lowell, you would think it would at least try to start on the side with the good carb. Jim Chuk

[Bryan]

Paul I would like to know when you put the new plugs in? Was this before you got it running or had you gotten it running and then put them in? I and a friend of mine have both had issues like this where it was running well and the next time we tried to start it, nothing but cranking. Both times we put in new plugs and she ran as expected, so we have determined that once the plug gap gets to a larger gap from use, there comes a point where they just will not fire. Glad you got her going.

[Paul Z]

I put new plugs in, before I got it runn. I doubt the old plug had more than 25 hours on them. I changed them at my last annual, and last summer I fractured my femur which kept grounded me for about 4 months.

[Paul Z]

Well I have made it to Tallahassee Florida. Again it won't start. I believe my spraig clutch (Spelling???) gave up. The starter engages and immediately disengages. I suspect I damaged it while trying to start it. I'm sitting in the airport terminal and will be flying via American Airlines back to Dallas to pick up my Pick-up Truck so I can get a Trailer to haul it to Sebring. I have the wing stow brackets coming should be there this afternoon, maybe tomorrow. :mad:

I'm tired of looking for a truck to rent, most rental companies will refuse to rent you a truck to haul someone else's trailer. I'm planning on trailering the plane to Lockwood, and leave it for them to repair.

[Av8r_Sed]

Paul,
Sorry to hear of all your trials and tribulations. To help put it into perspective though, you're way better off than if you had an in flight engine out. Nobody needs that kind of adrenaline rush. Hang in there and you'll get your Foxy fixed.

[HighWing]

Paul,
...you're way better off than if you had an in flight engine out. Nobody needs that kind of adrenaline rush. Hang in there and you'll get your Foxy fixed.

Totally agree.

[Paul Z]

I was talking with the Chief Mechanic. He had said that it could do serious damage to the back of the engine if it came apart in flight. That is when I said enough is enough. The good thing I'm alive, and I don't have to go to work and tell my boss I have to take time off, like a lot of you. :D

[GuppyWN]

What do you want for it! :)

[Paul Z]

I wanted to tell about the shinning light from this adventure. I flew home last night to get my truck and the Wing tow kit. This morning after I got up, I got a call from Coley, checking on me and how the plane was running. I was really surprised to hear from him, and his concern. He reminded me that the Kickback I was seeing in the prop concerned him and he said I should have Lockwood or Ronnie at Southern MS Rotax check it out. It is not often you run across someone that nice, & concerned with someone’s welfare. If you are ever find yourself broken down in Mississippi, and need some help Call Coley (601) 573-7617, or Ronnie Smith a great couple of people If you are ever at Southern MS Rotax, give his big black Labrador some attention.

Most Doctors don’t even call to see how you are doing after surgery!

[Slyfox]

I'm very confused on this whole thing. Are you saying that the starter drive is bad. Why not just order a new starter and have it sent to where the kitfox is and just replace it?

[Paul Z]

Need to pull the engine to get to the sprag gear.
Here is a you tube video about it. The guys voice is funny, kind of made my day. I’m smiling now.
The video is well worth watching.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmmCm8KAdM0

[Paul Z]

Well the saga continues. I went out to the Big Tex rentals to measure the trailer height. The trailer was in the shop needing a inspection, the soonest I can rent it will be next week Monday, how much would you want to bet that Tuesday would be a better date since MLK Day is Monday.

[Slyfox]

wow, had no idea. looks like a real bad thing. what would cause this?

[Paul Z]

Kick Back on the engine when attempting to start

[Slyfox]

does that mean a soft start added on the engine is in your future

[Paul Z]

does that mean a soft start added on the engine is in your future

Slyfox,
Well aaaa, He## yes.
All I can say is %$#@ @#$$%!

[Av8r3400]

Did you have kickback problems prior to this?

[Paul Z]

No, it didn't start until I had a problem in July with my carb on the passenger side bar fin fuel on the passenger side. I pulled both carb's, sent them in for a rebuild. I put them on, balanced the carb's and it ran sweet. Then the last couple of times I have flown it it started getting hard to start. On the day I left for Sebring it started. It was a real bear to start, and the saga began.

I'm kind of disappointed with a 200 hour rebuild on both carb's lasting only 6 months before I had a flooding problem. I haven't even done much flying in that 6 months because I fractured my femur knee joint while working on the plane. It grounded me for 3 1/2 months from flying being stuck on crutches.

[Paul Z]

I hate typing on an iPad, I reread the above and in one place it looks like I lost my mind. :confused:

No, it didn’t start until I had a problem in July with my carb on the passenger side bar fin fuel on the passenger side. I pulled both carb’s, sent them in for a rebuild.

Whats in the brackets should have been “barfing fuel”, and why I typed passenger side I have no clue, it was on the Pilots Side.

[ken nougaret]

So where are you now Paul and what's the plan?

[Paul Z]

Right now my plan is:
On Monday Rodney Wren is either driving or flying from Hugo Oklahoma to Garland, TX. We will be taking my Toyota Tacoma, and drive from Garland to Zephyrhills, FL to borrow Louie’s Trailer. Then drive from Zephyrhills, FL to Tallahassee FL pick up the plane, drive it to Lockwood, and then return the trailer to Louie in Zephyrhills. Then drive back to Garland, coming home it becomes a road trip.

Our contingency plan is:
Louie put me on to a man in Arkansas that has an enclosed trailer. Im planning on calling him today to get more info about his trailer. If I can strike a deal, I may buy his trailer and then Rodney & I could pick the plane up and drive back to Garland and do the repair myself. Not having to pay $75 or $100 per hour to pull the engine and do the repair at Lockwood, would definitely defray the cost of the trailer. I will not know that until I get ahold of the man with the trailer.

[Paul Z]

I want to thanks everyone for offers of help & Conern. I really must say thanks to Rodne Wren an Oklahoma Kitfox flyer for taking the time to help me retrieve 703KA. I'm working on an iPad so I'll post one photo of the rescue.
793KA sitting in the Tallahassee Million Air hanger.

[Paul Z]

The trailer ready to load. Rodney Wren, just parked the car, and heading to the hanger to help with getting it ready.

[Paul Z]

Draining all of the fuel.

[Paul Z]

Wings tied back. A special thanks to John McBean for sending me the wing tie back kit.

[Paul Z]

She fit and I didn't need to remove the wings!

[Paul Z]

Loaded with wings attached, a special thanks to Dave Wyrick a Highlander owner for the use of his trailer.

[Paul Z]

Unloading her in Mesquite.

[Paul Z]

Man do I owe a big favor to Rodney, & John.

[Paul Z]

Home again, now to pull the engine.

So far the only damage I have found after the move is about a 3/4 inch rub on the leading edge copilot side wing, a little touch up paint and she will be good to go. :D

Tomorrow I need to take the trailer to get a pole scrape on the drivers sign, not major damage but I did it and I need to have it fixed before I return it to Dave.

[ken nougaret]

Good to see you made it home. If its any consolation, sebring closed on friday for weather and saturday was rather miserable with heavy winds. I dont think john mcbean was enjoying himself. Ken

[Av8r3400]

Glad you're home in one piece, Paul. Sorry for all your troubles… :(

[Paul Z]

Thanks, now to pull the engine.

[jtpitkin06]

Paul,

If you need a hand yanking the motor or need to borrow an engine hoist just let me know

John Pitkin
Greenville, TX

[Paul Z]

Paul,

If you need a hand yanking the motor or need to borrow an engine hoist just let me know

John Pitkin
Greenville, TX

John

Thanks for the offer. I definitely might take you up on the offer for the engine hoist.
I plan on taking the trailer back to Dave Myrick on Monday. After that it is time to start pulling the engine. I’m not looking forward to that any more than I was the 5 year rubber replacement.
I must admit the Kitfox Forum has a great bunch of guys willing to lend a hand to a fellow pilot. Thanks to all for your well wishes and offers of assistance.

Paul Zimmermann

[Paul Z]

I wish I would have seen this when I was stranded. I know people don't get stranded often but here is a great solution to a difficult problem. I wonder if a Series 7 SS would fit as nicely.

http://youtu.be/Q7syWFhkbqE

[ken nougaret]

At first i thought it was going to stay on the flatbed. Maybe AAA would cover the ride. Ha!

[Paul Z]

Well I haven't posted in a while. The LSRM-A Certification is probably paid off today. I pulled the engine to replace the SPRAG Clutch.

The iPad will only allow me to post 1 picture at a time.

[Paul Z]

K703KA less engine.

[Paul Z]

Engine packed & ready to ship to CPS for repair.

If you ever need to ship a crate to them ask them to Ship from you to their location. If I shipped it it was approximately $1400 via UPS Freight. If CPS shipped it it was approximately $150 via UPS Freight. Man the shaft the little guy.

[Av8r3400]

Not to be a party pooper, but why do you need to send the engine to CPS to change a sprag clutch?

[Paul Z]

I didn't want to change it. After fighting to get the plane home, and removing the engine I wasn't in the mood to do more. My mental attitude & my German temper were stretched to my limit. I have attended the LSRM training and Rotax Line Maintenance, but I need the maintenance and heavy maintenance to do the SPRAG replacement according to Rotax. However, according to the Federal Government I can do the replacement because I am a LSRM. However, I have never seen it done, and didn't feel like reading about it. It's called releaving stress. I'm having them put in a SPRAG Clutch, soft start module, & rebuild carb's. I sure hope they do a better job on the Carb's than Lockwood, did last summer. I'm bracing myself for the cost.

[Av8r3400]

Fair enough. Kudos to know your technical (and mental) limitations.

Good luck on the repairs from CPS.

[Paul Z]

I was ****ed! A special thanks to a very good Kitfox friend Rodney Wren helping me out during a difficult situation

[Paul Z]

Have any of you seen the cover of the CPS parts catalog. Man I need to ask for a discount for the work I'm having done. I just look at their catalog, a nice photo of 703KA, back when it was a TriGear. It looks like Debra McBean was in the pilots seat, probably John McBean in the coPilots seat.

[DesertFox4]

Ask for a discount and also why they photo shopped your wings and tail from white to light blue.;) Enjoy your classes Paul. Hope your engine runs perfect again for many hours.

[Paul Z]

Photo shopping the white to light blue, that is why it took so long for it to upload to my brain that it was my plane. They didn't do the fuel caps, but the 703K is very plainly my N number.

[Paul Z]

Well, I'm driving back to Garland. I completed my Rotax Service refresher, and took the Line Maintenance & Heavy Maintenance classes. I also picked up my engine, new Sprag clutch, soft start modules, carbs rebuilt, & gear box maintenance. Next week I'll be putting 703KA back together.

[DesertFox4]

Safe trip, good luck with the install.