Vans Lawsuit

[Av8r3400]

AvWeb Story (http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Vans-Lawsuit-Seen-As-Attack-On-Kit-Industry-225066-1.html)

This is a very bad omen for us all. I hope (but have little faith) the judge will throw his out. The plaintiff seems to be suing everyone involved in the aircraft except the one responsible, the pilot, her father (deceased in the crash).

Without decending into political arguments, (then this thread will be deleted) what can be done to stop this before it becomes a trend and we are all done with experimental aircraft?

That is probably a rhetorical question. The way I see it is the only ones who can stop this is the courts.

[Dave S]

Larry & all,

Probaby way too early to tell what the disposition will be; however, as you indicated, actions like this can potentially have repercussions throughout the entire homebuilt industry and community.

I'd like to second Larry's comment that we stay away from political opinions and add that we should seek to understand and correctly influence logic where we can - and keep our lips zipped where we should. Good time to remember our basic civics education from 5th grade regarding the separation of powers - Executive, Legislative & Judicial - and who has the ball - meaning the judicial system now in this case.

One point for us to consider is the actual details of the suit.......details, details......can drive a person nuts, but the details will be argued in the court system.

Here is the link to the actual 16 page document filed which contains the complaint.

http://media.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/other/experimental.crash.suit.pdf

Also included as an attachment to this post.

NTSB Probable Cause issued

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20140531X15032&key=1&queryId=9d9a6796-c7a9-4581-9fd1-aece7804e944&pgno=5&pgsize=50

Our aviation associations (EAA, LAMA, AOPA) are better equipped to represent the logic and interests of the aviation community, and home builders in particular.

EAA's activities with Tech Counselors, Flight advisors and builder information has been a significant boost to safety; as well as the aircraft Kit industry's manufacturing of well designed and tested kits. So much good has been done to increase the safety of the experimental movement.

Do read the entire 16 pages - lot of information there. This is the complaint......the rebuttals will come in court and that has not been heard yet.

Sincerely,

Dave S
KF 7 Trigear
912ULS Warp Drive

[Kitfox Guy]

Thanks for info as it is very interesting reading. The American Civil justice system is a very interesting creature that I haven't seen replicated in any other parts of the world. Years ago I stopped giving airplane rides to friends and acquaintances for fear of civil liability. It is a shame but I had to do it to protect myself. The fear of losing my lifelong savings and investments, because a passenger is harmed in a flight is real and terrifying.

[gregsgt]

So how is it really different than giving rides to friends in acquaintances in an old car that you rebuilt or something like that?

[N981MS]

So how is it really different than giving rides to friends

The difference will be in the ignorance of the jurors. I would wager there will not be single a pilot on the jury; much less a builder. Likely they will all be drivers of cars.

You are correct though. You could be sued for everything you are worth for driving someone in your car if they were injured. Or for helping a little old lady cross the street if it went wrong.

[gregsgt]

That's the point. I run a business and from my point of view I take a risk every day in operation not to mention the fact that I break about a dozen laws every day that I never even knew existed...

I just couldn't live my life if I was scared of getting sued for every action I took. I just don't see this as any different from any other thing out there.

[Av8r3400]

I believe a common thread of this discussion will be "risk tolerance".

Greg, your tolerance for risk is much higher than 981MS' is. Personally I'd say I'm somewhere in between. We live in a very litigious society. This is something we need to keep this in mind in many aspects of our daily lives. I too, own a small business. My liability insurance is many thousands of dollars per year. It is the price of doing business. I've never been sued, but I surely wouldn't go without the insurance. I shudder to think what a company like Vans would have to pay after an action like this succeeds. All experimental aircraft kit manufacture would cease. Instantly.

I recently did a weekend course for Rotax training. There was a bunch of discussion on liability and even the instructor cautioned on giving open advice for fear of liability. There was a tech instructor there as a student who says he cautions all of his students to stay away from LSA craft due to conflicting information and fear of liability. I was truly saddened by this. There's an A&P near me who would love to go into business but the $20,000 price tag for basic liability insurance keeps him out. I'd bet this is a story that can be told 1000 times over.

I did a bunch of research before getting into experimental planes, and was unable to find a successful lawsuit against a previous owner or builder from a subsequent owner or pilot involved in an accident. This gave me some confidence to move forward into this wonderful realm. I would sure hate to see lawsuits like this become commonplace.

We have all heard of the person who decides to deregister and destroy a nice plane and sell it for parts, rather than sell it as a flyable craft. I believe this to be extreme, but who am I to evaluate someone else's risk tolerance.

[Esser]

I'm just glad I live in Canada when it comes to litigation. Something like this would be thrown out immediately. Even if it did go to court, it wouldn't be a jury. It would also be limited to $300,000 by law if they did win.

[Flybyjim]

It is always a sad time when an accident takes place and life is lost, it happens every day in every part of the world. Yes, we are in a society that some believe some one has to pay for their loss, I get that, not that I believe in that. Crap happens. As the president of our local EAA club this type conversation come to the forefront every time we schedule a Young Eagles rally about liability for the pilots and the officers of the club. We do have insurance coverage through EAA for these type events but to what total coverage, no one will really know until it is tested, we hope that will not happen, but I get the uncertain-tee of those involved. Because of these unknowns we went from 11 willing pilots to 3 pilots to fly the kids, after the last rally with only three pilots to fly, the stress became a bit to high to work all these flights so our YE program is on hold, sad for the kids and a statement about the state of affairs. I run two business's my wife has another and liability is always lingering with in our daily operations, it does not keep us up at night but than we have never been tested. I love airplanes, love to fly but love to build more than flying. I will make mistakes, it's human to do so, but I will always do my best to avoid the major ones and in the end I am responsible for my actions no someone else. I feel for Vans at this point and I hope the judge/jury looks at the total event, where is the pilot in this suit, not there, no deep pockets. Sorry this got so long, just my thoughts, must be why EAA has a risk management team for all us chapters.

[Kitfox Guy]

The difference will be in the ignorance of the jurors. I would wager there will not be single a pilot on the jury; much less a builder. Likely they will all be drivers of cars.....

Most of the public, including jurors presume that people who own airplanes are rich. We know otherwise, but the jurors are likely inclined to render large monetary awards if they feel the defendant is wealthy or insured. I lived in California most of my life, and there is a huge surplus of lawyers. According to the State Bar Association they have 225,000 members. Many are aggressively seeking work, and the potential money an attorney can make from a catastrophic aircraft accident lawsuit is significant.

I never really worried much about the passengers I was giving a ride as they had demonstrated an interest in general aviation and had a sense of the risk involved in flight. What concerned me more were the relatives or heirs of the passengers who perhaps did not share an appreciation of general aviation.

Everybody has their own level of risk they are willing to assume, I guess. Whatever works for you is OK with me.

[N981MS]

I believe a common thread of this discussion will be "risk tolerance".

Exactly.

I believe someone's risk tolerance in aviation is inversely proportional to the amount of liability they must concern themselves with in their professional lives and also inversely proportional to how much they have to lose.

Of course there are innumerable other factors. Some guys just do not worry about anything while others obsess over minutia.

Incidentally, I do occasionally fly Young Eagles. I have decided that the risk is worth the benefit to myself and aviation. I do not fly low anyway but I do carry some extra altitude in these circumstances. Just in case the fan stops.

[Rooster]

Wow!
This is really sad!

I am so sorry that the world is turning into such a litigating society.

We are continually wanting to blame others for our misfortune, when the plaintiff would have really loved the flight had it not gone wrong.

I still cannot believe that one can blame the manufacturer for a mistake that a builder made. If I stick a length of thread tape INTO a fuel line and it blocks further down, then I am the idiot, not VANS or the fuel flow maker????

YOU go for a ride in the plane, YOU know it is risky, You made the choice.
If you are the plaintiff and YOU cajoled your daughter to go for a ride with you, then YOU are to blame for her death, not VANS!! If your daughter wanted to go with you, then no-one is to blame.
%#* happens!

Cases like this make me appreciate Africa a lot more.
Only thing is; It will make owning an RV further from my reach!

Bugger!
:(:(

[Rooster]

I see on another forum (albeit South African) that the builder had previously built an aircraft....................http://www.avcom.co.za/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=165044

I hope that it is the case and it helps VANS

[gregsgt]

Did you see the pictures of how bad the fuel system was gunked up with RTV sealant? Yikes.

http://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/document.cfm?docID=424019&docketID=57129&mkey=89323

[HighWing]

This brings up the memory of the 1999 Arlington EAA Fly-in crash of a two week owned RV-6 in which a pilot of one year was killed after a much too steep climb - according to experienced witnesses - resulted in a departure stall. The $10,000,000 award prompted EAA.to completely revise its sponsorship policy regarding the numerous "EAA" events across the country. It also prompted my wife and I to cancel what would have been the tenth annual Cameron Park Kitfox Fly-in and BBQ. This event attracted close to 30 airplanes and not quite 100 people for a fun day of viewing and talking Kitfox each year. It also reminds me of the story my wife likes to tell of a guy who sued a lawnmower manufacturer because there was no warning label discouraging it's use as a hand held hedge trimmer. But after seeing the pictures of the gunk in the fuel line, I would suggest the current law suit and this story bear dramatic similarities.

I am one more who won't give rides. This stems largely from our experience after I planted my first IV in the clearing among the oak trees. We both spent time in the ER. My wife Kay suffered a puncture wound to her leg that involved contact with a bone and a broken thumb. No serious injuries by anyone's estimation, but resulting in an ER bill of $39,000. With that in mind, check your liability coverage in your insurance policy. Mine states $100,000 per occupant. Just exactly what the 1 million liability covers, I hope to never learn. I too have been thinking for a long time about the parting out idea when the inevitable comes in to play. I'm just not quite comfortable risking a lifetime of prudent living for an asset that won't make much of a difference one way or the other in the whole scheme of things.

Regarding changing the system. It will never happen. Consider those involved and their motive for change. Plaintiff - no way, hope for $$. Plaintiff's Attorney - no way, in most cases, hope for big $$. Insurance company - no way. Lose a little - raise premiums a lot, $$ in. Defense attorney - no way, $$ in. A good friend has made a good living as a medical malpractice defense attorney. Who is left? The poor guy or entity with all those $$$ hanging out of his pocket. Oh, I almost forgot, the judge, the clerks, the stenographer, the custodian and on and on - $ in.

Even with the Arlington award which was later overturned. There was tons paid out to attorneys. One thing is certain. Whether or not any legal action has merit. Whether it ever even goes to court, there will be $$$ to pay and mostly by the defense.

[Kitfox Guy]

That's a real shame. When I lived in CA I flew to your KF Fly In at your residence once. I had a great time and it is too bad we can't do stuff like that anymore. At my last airport they stopped having formal fly ins and air shows because the insurance premiums were too high. I agree with you that there is no relief on the horizon for all the reasons you listed.

Hey, this whole discussion is depressing, let's shut this down and talk about more pleasant things we can do!

[dholly]

Exactly.

I believe someone's risk tolerance in aviation is inversely proportional to...

Factors that one might never have envisioned. Here is a story of two very good friends, both of whom I was honored to know for several years...

Group of pilot/friends with a deep passion for flying, thick as thieves, hanging together for decades. One buys and flys a 182 floatplane for years, then partners with the other who, in turn, flys it for several years. The original pilot/owner is forced to move to Light Sport so the partner buys him out. The two, who each have racked up thousands of hours PIC in the plane, take off for one of their many regular fly-in fishing trips to Quebec. For whatever reason, the plane crashed shortly after takeoff in a difficult to reach area and the ensuing fire consumed most of the plane and contents due to fuel jugs in the floats. The two had long told their spouses both verbally and in written instruction that it was their express intent not to bring suit against a pilot/friend in the event of an accident. The spouses complied, however, the two scumbag insurance companies went at each other with a vengeance that lasted more than 5 years. All the while, dragging and attempting to pit the unwilling spouses against each other in an impossible to prove litigation (who was PIC?) that really took an emotional and financial toll on the very parties that least deserved it. Sad but true.