Raven (kitfox 2/3 clone) restoration

[knuckled62]

I am new to the forum and am in the process of restoring a plans built Raven.
The original builder who has past on did a very nice job on the original build.
The plane has past through a few hands and is a little worse for wear.
It was originally powered by a 532 but the last owner bought a low time 582 blue head to go in it.
I have compared this plane to a model 4 1200 gross weight and they are very similar in everything except motor mount, cowlings, and flap mixer.
The mount is the thing that i need help with as i feel it positions the motor to high on the firewall.
I would love to hear from anybody who currently owns a model 2 or 3 to see some pictures of their engine mounting and possibly send me some pictures.
I am located 1 hour south of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and would be willing to look at any in southern Ontario.
any help would be appreciated.:confused:

[Esser]

The best guy I can think of is Dave Fisher in London. He goes by the handle kitfoxflyer on youtube. Looks like he ussually has a few model 2's and 3's kicking around his place.

[Av8r3400]

…and at least one Raven.

x2 to contact Dave (http://www.teamkitfox.com/Forums/member.php?u=2303).

[kmach]

Yep he was the first guy I thought of too!

[kitfoxSwede]

From what can be seen on the photo I would say that the motor seems to sit in about the right height. The propeller usually comes out slightly high in the round cowl you have and if anything it seems to sit a bit lower then usually. But that can be that the angle the photo is taken from plays some tricks and make ut look lower then it actually is.

PM me your email adress and I can send you some photos of my MkII.

[tommg13780]

Here's an example of a model 4 with Rotax 503. I think the engine dimensions are very similar if not the same as 582.

[tommg13780]

A view from the other side.

[KFfan]

I just measured from the top of the 582 head to the top of the firewall on my KF2 is 5ish inches.

[av8rps]

I'm pretty aware of the Avid Flyer clone called the Raven. It was directly modeled after the B-model Avid Flyer with some influence from the popularity of the Kitfox. Obviously some people took some liberties in making changes that ultimately blended the early Avid design with some later Kitfox and Avid features, but I'd be really surprised if the airframe tubing components are anywhere near as strong / large as the Model IV Kitfox. But again, any of that could have been modified by the builder.

I still have a copy somewhere of the CD Cad drawings of the Raven in my old Avid stuff, along with a copy of an aviation magazine that has a letter to the editor from Dean Wilson stating he was a bit more than upset about the Raven plans being sold; how someone just copied his design, then put it into a CAD drawing, and was selling plans for the airplane he designed, with him getting no design credit or compensation for any of it.

Remember, Dean essentially had the same thing happen to him when the Kitfox was introduced, so I don't think anyone could actually blame him for being upset over everyone stealing his design and giving him no credit or monetary compensation.

Being "almost famous" as Dean is somewhat these days, isn't known for paying the bills. I just hope that one day history will fully recognize that Dean has created one of the best light aircraft designs in the 20th century, a design that will likely outlive all of us. So even if he never sees the monetary compensation he deserves, at least he might be recognized for the the genius he is. And if nothing else I hope he is at least flattered that his design was so good that people are willing to go so far as to steal it.

To the Raven owner, don't take any of my history explanation wrong. The guy that stole the design and sold the plans without Dean's approval or participation was the bad guy. Certainly not you.

Your Raven will make for a really fun airplane to own. I'm sure it is lightweight and will be a great performing airplane. The early airplanes were so much lighter than the later ones, so they were really performers. If your Raven retained any of those features it will be a blast to fly.

[knuckled62]

I must say that i don't agree with people ripping of other people designs, and i certainly did not go out looking for this particular plane i am very happy that i found such a copy of two of the best built kit planes out there.

This particular one was built by a retired NASA engineer who never got to enjoy it enough, he passed away shortly after he finished it.

It sat for many years and passed through a few hands before i bought it.

I can only hope that i can get it back in the air as well put together as he once had it.

I have only had the chance to compare it against a Kitfox 4 which it is very close too, the main structure is similar, but it looks to me that the engine sits lower in relation to firewall height.

Also the cowl is different, it is three pieces, and has a much larger opening in the front that i believe will just cause more drag.

i plan on getting a model 2/3 round cowl for it.

thanks

[knuckled62]

I just measured from the top of the 582 head to the top of the firewall on my KF2 is 5ish inches.

I will take a measurement this weekend and include a side view picture of engine with cowl off.

when i compared the model 4 with 582 engine installed it was much lower,
my spark plug wires almost touch top of cowl.

see picture below of model 4 engine

[knuckled62]

A view from the other side.

Your engine looks like it is much further from firewall, my rear mounted starter actually protrudes through firewall a good amount.
What if the distance from the back case where the starter attaches to the firewall.
If you run a straight edge long the top of cylinder head to firewall, how much lower is it from top of firewall.

thanks

[TY2068]

Has anyone been in contact with Dave F recently ? He's been flying below the radar lately. I've known Dave for a good while now. I'll agree a bit rowdy and unconventional but a pretty darn knowledgeable guy. He could probably show a few here a thing or two about Kitfox flying. If anyone can speak on behalf of the Raven I'm sure he can. I'm not 110% positive but I think the guy who used the Avid-Kitfox as a template for the Raven is gone now.

My name is Shannon. Just another lurker out for info at this point :) Gotta start somewhere huh ! I suppose this is an introduction. I flew my 98 Kitfox IV 1200 Greyhead 582 C IVO 72" Medium GA 2-Blade down in Louisiana for the first time 9-4-15. Look it up on YT if you like. Thanks to Av8rSed for the input-advice beforehand.

[av8rps]

I must say that i don't agree with people ripping of other people designs, and i certainly did not go out looking for this particular plane i am very happy that i found such a copy of two of the best built kit planes out there.

This particular one (Snip, snip...) thanks

I'm glad you didn't take my comments wrong, as my only intent in explaining all that was to educate the group about the Raven's background.

I completely agree that as a blend of an Avid and Kitfox it will be a marvelous airplane. One of my friends put together an airplane from a bunch of different Avid and Kitfox parts a few years back, and because he couldn't decide what to actually call it he just affectionately referred to it as "The *******" :) .

The cowl on your Raven looks like one a guy in Washington state was selling years ago for Avid Flyers. His goal at that time was to offer a cowl for the Avid Flyers that would provide that cute faux radial engine look of the Kitfox that was extremely popular at the time, while also being able to utilize a separate boot cowl so it could be sealed up better against weather.

A round Kitfox cowl won't work on an Avid Flyer because the engine mount sits much higher on the fuselage than the Kitfox. Dean Wilson designed the Avid to have a thrust line as high as possible not only to get the most efficient use of the prop blast while still allowing the pilot to see over the cowl, but more importantly so he could run a longer prop while still having lots of ground clearance. That's why if you look at a 2 stroke powered Avid Flyer you will notice that the engine sits in the mount upside down (2 strokes don't care if they run upside down) with the gearbox and prop shaft positioned high above the upside down engine, pretty much even with the top of the instrument panel (unlike the Kitfox where even though it has a much higher cowl that is hard to see over, the prop thrustline is much lower)

I'm not certain, but I recall that the original Raven plans included mounting the engine right side up like was in the Kitfox. So if the cowl was the one from the guy in Washington, something probably had to be modified to make everything fit on your airplane. So I'm speculating that the dimensions on your engine mount placement is not going to be the same as either the Avid or a Kitfox. But I will admit I'm relying on memory for most of this, and that was all a long time ago.

Paul

[knuckled62]

Hi Paul,

If i wanted to replace cowl with something that won't cause as much drag from the oversized opening in the front, what cowl do you think would fit it better?
Would an early avid cowl be closer to fitting a raven?
I might also consider reworking this cowl, but it would need a huge amount of repairs and mods.

thanks

Denis

[knuckled62]

Hi have taken a few measurements of engine install and some pictures.
Top of cylinder head to top of firewall is 4 1/4 "
Back of starter cover plate to firewall if 1 3/8"
See attached pictures and let me know what you think about lowering engine 10014

10015

10016

10017

10018slightly or if you think it is fine the way it is.

[knuckled62]

Ran into another major issue during reassembly of control systems.
I found that all push rods for flaps, ailerons,and elevator were bent, i made all new ones than found out that the seat could not be installed because it hit them.
I though about raising seat to allow space, but there would not be enough headroom even for my average 5"8" height.
Is this a common problem for early kit fox's, do they just fly with curved/bent push rods?
I have a couple of options, widen seat tunnel to give more room, add additional pivot points in push rod to lower operating position, and change attachment point on control tube to a lower position and adjust the elevator push rod attachment by the same Percentage to keep travel and stick forces the same.
Any suggestions and pictures would be appreciated.

thanks

Denis

[Esser]

On my model 7 the first push rod is manufactured to be bent and clear the seat. I imagine yours would be similar.

[knuckled62]

On my model 7 the first push rod is manufactured to be bent and clear the seat. I imagine yours would be similar.

Which push rod, flaps, elevator, or aileron?

Denis

[Av8r_Sed]

Yes, it's common to bend them to clear the seat. Seems wrong at first but causes no operational problems.

[rv9ralph]

Here is a picture of my KF3. Notice the controlled bend in the pushrods. Also, note the nylon straps to keep the seat from flexing and hitting the pushrods when the seat is heavily loaded.

[t j]

All three 4130 tubes came from the factory bent. I had to bend all three a little more to clear the seat.

[knuckled62]

Here is a picture of my KF3. Notice the controlled bend in the pushrods. Also, note the nylon straps to keep the seat from flexing and hitting the pushrods when the seat is heavily loaded.

Hi Ralph,
Just seems so wrong to do it that way, it looks like i would have to bend mine more to clear seats, i am still working on other solutions but believe in keeping it a simple as possible.

I like your flap control set up more than mine, could you send me pictures of handle at the extreme end of travel in both directions.

thanks

Denis

[knuckled62]

I am looking at making a push rod that is split into two rods, running parallel with one welded under the other to provide a drop down to clear seats.
Does anyone know what the maximum aerodynamic force that could be applied to the controls so i can test my push rod idea.

thanks :confused:

Denis

[rv9ralph]

Denis,
The current method of bending the pushrod to avoid interference with the bottom of the seat is a proven method. It has been in service on hundreds of Kitfoxes. I would recommend not re-engineering it.

As to my flap handle (I did not build my Kitfox). I will look in my photo library to see if I have any that would help. To describe it... the alum plate has 3 dentents for flap position. the handle has a spring loaded push button on the end (like old VW hand brakes) there is an AN3 bolt that exits the side of the tube (controlled with the button in the end) that fits into the 3 detents to set flap position.

The big misunderstanding about the flaperons is that they work like flaps on any other aircraft. They really affect pitch trim due to loading more than anything else... first notch when solo, second notch with passenger, etc. The KF3 did not have pitch trim, when properly rigged though, it will maintain attitude when at cruise.

Ralph

[knuckled62]

Here is a picture of current mock up of instrument panel.
Still have to finalize a few things, switch's and circuit breakers will be directly above a/s gauge, fuel gauge will be just to the left of those.
Mag switch will be left of MGL E1, radio and intercom panel will be to the right of the FLYPAD mount (for Foreflight).
I also included side shot to see space behind panel.
I am planning to mount a Belite aoa guage in hud position a v-brace.
Let me know what you think.

[Av8r_Sed]

I recommend mounting the engine monitor, airspeed and altimeter higher in your panel as these are primary scan instruments. Do you have enough depth where you want to put the radio? Also, do you have to put in a transponder somewhere?

Is that some kind of Steampunk header tank in front of the panel? I've never seen one quite like that.

[rosslr]

Hi Denis,

I preface my comments by saying that elsewhere in this forum I expressed the view that it is dangerous to get between and Kitfox pilot and his/her panel!! But as you put it up there asked for comments, here is my 2 bobs worth!

You have 5 round instruments. I would arrange them smack in front of you, in a 2 x 2 x 1 pattern from top to bottom. That is:

Top, in front of eyes and just below glare shield I would put A/S L and EMS R
Second row, I'd put the Alt L and VSI R
Botton, cantered between the others, the balance/turn indicator. Or, to the left and with switches to the right in a couple of short rows.

I love the Ifly mount - I used it and it is much less clunky than the Air gizmo garmin mount. I wouldn't worry to much if it had to moved a little to the right to get the other primary instruments arranged in easy scanning view. Then the radio and transponder to the right again.

just my 2 bobs worth - I have just finished a model 7 and it appears your panel is a bit tighter. than the 7, so I guess it is a bit of challenge to ensure it is all functional as well as visually pleasing!

Look forward to seeing the results.

cheers

ross

[jiott]

Just as a general comment regarding Ipad (or any kind of tablet) mounts; I would not want to permanently mount any of them in a panel cutout because as a consumer product they become obsolete and unsupported so quickly. Then you have to make a new panel for the next generation of tablet-asking for too much work in the near future and also reduced resale value. They are wonderful devices, but I would mount them external to the panel using a Ram mount or something similar, or just use it like a kneeboard. The ability to move it or swivel it around in the airplane can become quite useful to get away from glare.

[mr bill]

Good point ! State of the art is advancing very quickly.

[knuckled62]

Thanks for the great feed back.
I am already designing panel 2.0 version.
I found after the first mock up i had a little more wiggle room than i thought.
I hope to have a new version cut out this weekend and post a picture.
It will have the 5 round instruments plus a small fuel gauge on the right,
and the fly pad mount as close to that stack of instruments as possible.
I have not determined if i will be installing a transponder yet, as i don't plan on flying in controlled air space.
I do plan on setting aside panel space for one in case i want to add it later.
I will be using a handheld portable radio which i will surface mount to panel beside flypad mount.
Switches and circuit breakers will be under Flypad mount just left of center line of panel.
I am looking for a supply for good quality single pole toggle switches around 1" tall to fit my panel.

[knuckled62]

Well i just finished panel version 2.1 but right after setting it in the plane and sitting in plane looking at panel i realized i should have raised main flight instruments higher.
I did more measurements and figure i can raise the 4 flight instruments 2", and i should be able to swap fuel gauge with engine monitor so it will sit a little higher.
Oh well need to pick up another piece of hardboard to do version 2.2, hopefully the last one before i do it in aluminum.:(

[knuckled62]

Just wondering if Kitfox 2,3,4 models with front header tank needs electric facet fuel pump? or is gravity feed and pulse pump all that is required for rotax 582.

thanks :confused:

[mr bill]

To layout my panel, I made full size paper dollies. Went thru several iterations, then made a CAD model and emailed it to a water jet vendor and 50 bucks later had my panel.

[jiott]

Knuckled62, don't forget to layout all the panel locations for your switches and Circuit breakers. They look small and insignificant on the front side, but in the back they are larger than you might think.

[KFfan]

Just wondering if Kitfox 2,3,4 models with front header tank needs electric facet fuel pump? or is gravity feed and pulse pump all that is required for rotax 582.

thanks :confused:
It seems the facet is sufficient. Some add a auxiliary electric pump as a backup. There are posts here about the subject and preferences.

[knuckled62]

To layout my panel, I made full size paper dollies. Went thru several iterations, then made a CAD model and emailed it to a water jet vendor and 50 bucks later had my panel.

Hi Bill,
I am looking at having mine water jetted also.
How did you do the very professional lettering on your panel?

[jiott]

Don't overlook the possibility of having the panel laser cut. It is similar in price to water jet, but is much more accurate (within thousandths).

[mr bill]

I created a Solidworks file of the panel for all the lettering and sent it to a local silkscreen vendor. they made the silkscreen and applied the lettering to the panel. The cost for that was $145.