Buying a Kitfox. Need help with insurance

[gregsgt]

OK guys I'm looking for advice.

I found a KF IV 1200 with a 912. I've been looking for a while and this is the right one for me. I'm going to buy it.

I've pretty much got everything figured out except for the insurance.

Right now I plan on trailering it home and keeping it in my garage to finish some misc odds and ends I want to do to it over the winter. After that I will be keeping it in a hangar at the airport.

As far as trailering it and keeping it in my garage it looks like a combination of my auto and homeowners insurance will cover it.

Once I have it ready I am going to need in-flight insurance.

Here is some background on me:

I am 38 years old and a student pilot. Roughly without adding everything up in my logbook I have 37 hours of dual instruction spread out over a few years with zero tail wheel time. I'd assume that I'm not very exciting to an insurance company. I do plan on training with an instructor in this aircraft that is very familiar with them.

Now my father is an inactive pilot with over 4000 hours in single engine aircraft and he does have his tail wheel endorsement from many years ago. He is 72 years old and was never denied a medical. He let his medical expire about 10 years ago and never tried to renew it because he came down with a medical condition that would have prevented it.

Would it be beneficial to somehow get him involved in the insurance or ownership of the aircraft in order to make it more insurable? I'm not sure how to go about starting the insurance process or even what insurance company to go to.

[TahoeTim]

I think it's better in your name. You will eventually have to get insurance based on your experience. Fly as many hours in the first year as possible and your rates will drop. You will need the tailwheel endorsement and that takes about 10 hours. My insurance dropped as soon as I started adding endorsements. Get your controlled airspace if not already in your plan. (not many towered airports in my world but I got it anyway. If the opportunity pops up I will jump on seaplane endorsement too. A big part of the insurance premium is also what plane you are insuring.

I am just over 100 hours total and about half is instruction :eek:. Sport pilot in a zenith, tailwheel in a Citabria, stick and rudder in Idaho, Sling for my biannual, trike for the hell of it. I have flown in half a dozen planes of all varieties just because I am so curious about different aircraft. My zenith 601 gets neglected a little but my kitfox will get more attention once I get it up in the air.

[Paul Z]

I use Heather R Brown from Regal Aviation Insurance. Her quote was much better than the EAA insurance quote. i have her phone # if you want it, send me a Private Message, so I'm not advertising for her.

[cgruby]

[quote=gregsgt;52692]OK guys I'm looking for advice.


As far as trailering it and keeping it in my garage it looks like a combination of my auto and homeowners insurance will cover it.

Make sure you get that opinion from a factual source. I damaged my airplane while towing it and neither my home owner's or automotive insurance (State Farm) said it was covered.

[gregsgt]

Is anyone here using Falcon?

I've heard they have quite a few kf customers.

[TahoeTim]

I have falcon

[gregsgt]

I have falcon

Is there an agent that you deal with? I filled out the online request several days ago and haven't heard anything.

[TahoeTim]

I'd have to dig it up- $506 liability only and $1300 total to include $40000 aircraft coverage.

Kristopher B Abernathy
EAA Renewal Department
Falcon Insurance Agency, Inc.
PO Box 291388
Kerrville, TX 78029
866-647-4322 (4EAA)
Direct Line 480-459-5115
kabernathy@falconinsurance.com

[digital_photog]

Is anyone here using Falcon?

I've heard they have quite a few kf customers.

I have falcon. Best rates I found. This year Liability was only $356. That was with a private, Instrument, 50 hours in the kitfox in the past year.

[Paul Z]

Is yours just Liability, or does it include Comprehensive Airframe Damage?

[Av8r_Sed]

I went out to Boise and got my tailwheel endorsement with Stick and Rudder in their Kitfox SLSA. That helped me getting insurance coverage through Falcon. I had about 350 hours, mostly in Cessnas prior to that.

[digital_photog]

Is yours just Liability, or does it include Comprehensive Airframe Damage?
Mine is 1m liability, medical and non owned aircraft. Covers me if I rent or fly someones plane. My plane is only covered for me to fly it. I have about 1200 hours total time.

[Av8r3400]

I'm also with Falcon through EAA. They had the best rates for me.

$1200/year for $1M liability and $40k hull coverage, 0 deductible.

I started with liability only when I first started with my Kitfox, it was $1200/ year. I had ~400 hours TT, with 10 tailwheel. They required 10 hours in type to insure me so I flew with a friend, CFI and fellow Kitfox-er: JimS as a type checkout. Falcon was happy with that.

After the first year I had 100 hours in my plane and I added hull, not in motion. This kept the premium at $1200.

By the third year I had a couple hundred hours and went to full hull as I am now.

[DesertFox4]

Your homeowners policy and your auto policy will most likely cover zero if your aircraft is damaged or lost in a towing accident. You should have an aircraft insurance policy in place on your Kitfox to be covered for physical losses before transporting which of course must include hull coverage.
Liability will be your lowest cost portion of your coverage. Hull damage and inexperience will tally the rest.

[Paul Z]

The year with before Falcon $1400 as a TriGear, Liability & $80K on hull damage. I had 50+ hours in a tail dragger. I flew with Stick & Rudder before getting it converted To a tail dragger, and I flew 15 or 16 hours getting current & doing some mountain flying. Four months later, I flew my plane to the factory to get it converted. I had to change my policy before I could fly it home. I called Falcon, they were slow in getting me a quote, 2 days waiting. I called Regal, gave them my hours and they insured it in less than an hour $1600 for the year, Liability & $85K on hull in motion damage, 1 million liability. The night I got the insurance from Regal, I got the quote from Falcon, they wanted $2200 for the year.

When I rented this year, I got an $1800 quote from Regal. I listed all of my hours the sign off for currency in Tail Dragger, FAAST training etc. they required and came back with a $1400 quote.

[HighWing]

Very informative posts - all. I agree with the likelihood of coverage by homeowners or auto. Not likely. I know of several builders who purchased not in flight insurance while they were building. I think that would be prudent. I like Falcon. We had a claim several years ago and the experience was better than perfect. A rep actually called several times almost begging us to find a way we could claim the amount promised for per occupant medical. We finally sent him a bill from the ER that our medical carrier had already paid. He was happy with that. Then after not flying for five years and building a new airplane, the first year premium was under $1000 including $30,000 hull - with first flight coverage. Quite honestly the experience still amazes me. But, and I think this might be a big factor. I think Falcon and others are brokers and the actual premium you pay and the service you might actually get is more a factor of who the carrier is than who the broker is. Our insurance was through AIG and they are who we dealt with.

[birddog486]

Agreed, Home owners or auto insurance will NOT cover an airplane. You can buy a not in motion policy pretty cheap.

I used Falcon also until I found a somewhat local insurance company that was half the price for the same 30k hull coverage and no deductable.

[Clark in AZ]

I used Falcon also until I found a somewhat local insurance company that was half the price for the same 30k hull coverage and no deductable.

Care to share the company? Thanks!

[birddog486]

Sure, I went through Facer insurance out of Rantoul Ill.

[rv9ralph]

With insurance you have to understand there are Agents, Brokers and Underwriters.

Some Underwriters, have agents that will sell you a policy from that particular underwriter.

Agents at a brokerage will solicit all underwriters to get you the best cost on particular coverage based on your experience, your aircraft and what coverage you want.

Options include; liability only, hull (aircraft damage) ground only... either parked, in motion or flying and with/or without liability, you may include medical for yourself and any passengers. Etc.

Bottom line, call an agent. Personally I prefer a brokerage, and ask for an estimate. I have talked to brokers and they have told me that once you have a broker solicit the underwriters for you the underwriters will not change their offer if you call another broker.

Just a partial picture from my experience.

Ralph

[N981MS]

You mentioned being a student pilot. If you find someone that will insure a student in an experimental, please post back here. I have been unsuccessful in that endeavor when my wife was a student and later with a friend in our Zenith.

[TahoeTim]

My flight school required insurance before my first lesson. I don't remember exactly but i am fairly sure it was Falcon back then too.

[gregsgt]

You mentioned being a student pilot. If you find someone that will insure a student in an experimental, please post back here. I have been unsuccessful in that endeavor when my wife was a student and later with a friend in our Zenith.

I submitted a quote through EAA and got a quote back from Falcon.

$1,382 for ground and flight ($30k agreed value)

$603 aircraft liability ($1,000,000) and medical expense ($20,000)

$1,985 total policy premium.

A stipulation is that I must be under direct CFI supervision on all flights as a student pilot. Must receive 10 hours of dual flight instruction to include 10 full stop landings and obtain TW endorsement in make an model prior to solo.

How does this sound?

As an interesting side note, if the aircraft had any other engine than a 912 they were not interested in insuring me and to bind the insurance the make and model of the installed engine in the aircraft must be documented and approved by the underwriter.

[HighWing]

I think this is fair considering my most recent premium at just over $1000 with 990 in type for identical coverage. Your experience tends to make the often stated point that the insurance folks who write the policies actually rule the roost. I was interested in the clause in my most recent policy reminding me essentially that if I was not in complete compliance with my operating limitations, all I would get from them would be the I'm sorry smile.

[uke]

Wow my Bonanza only $1400. yr Wonder a kit fox value at 30m will be
have 800 hr tw and 3m total
uke

[N981MS]

A stipulation is that I must be under direct CFI supervision on all flights as a student pilot. .

All that sounds better than I could find. With our group we had other issues that when added to the student pilot issue made it a mess.

I am curious as to what "direct supervision" means to an insurance company. Unless they mean just the flight planning, how is this accomplished on a solo cross country?

[tommg13780]

I'm also curious what "direct supervision" means in the legal sense. It implies that your CFI has volunteered to be in the crosshairs for any and all scenarios involving a claim. From my experience doing primary training the upside is you might cover expenses. Of course the downside is huge..... I think the most realistic approach may be to get the license taken care of with a rental then go to the kitfox insurance application with a more attractive history. I think you will find that buying the airplane is probably the easiest of all the activities involved with owning and flying in the AM/EXP category.