Gross Weight?

[gbright]

Where is the gross weight shown?

Is it a decal/sticker like a VIN plate?

Understand the weight and balance has it.

Where else?

Thanks, Grant

[jtpitkin06]

As you have stated, the gross weight is shown in the weight and balance. It may also be shown in the Pilot Operating Handbook (POH) under limitations.

Because the Kitfox is, in most cases, an experimental airplane, the gross weight may also be shown as operating limitations and listed on the airworthiness certificate. Check with your DAR.

The builder is responsible for testing and determining the gross weight and making entries in the aircraft log book for various weights and CG locations.
You load the airplane up and fly it with the gross weight and CG you desire. After a test flight you make a note in the log book of the stall speed and flight characteristics. Be very careful how you do this entry. Especially if you are operating as LSA. If you put a note in the log book that you had a stall speed 1 knot over the 45 knot limit for LSA it is forever out of LSA and now experimental Amateur Built. (E-AB)

If I were concerned about LSA I would make an entry that the stall speed was "undetermined" on this flight. Reload the airplane with a CG further aft or decrease the gross weight and try again.

So the answer for your question is multiple choice.

Gross weight may be shown:
In the Weight and Balance
In the POH
On the airworthiness certificate
In the experimental logbook.

fun, Huh?

John Pitkin
Greenville, Tx

[HighWing]

Grant,
I had a bit of time this morning so checked a few things. Yes the Gross Weight is in the W/B. In my airplane, the only hard place I find it is on the Data Plate - of course I put it there, but there is a line for it on the plate. It is not in the Airworthiness Certificate - Photos Attached - nor is it in the Operating Limitations.

For a Kit built airplane both for the sake of safety as well as liability, I personally feel that the real Gross Weight Designation would be in the builder's manual and in the Specifications designated by the Kit Supplier.

I do know that in the Kitfox Model IV-1050 that a factory approved modification would bring the Gross Weight up to the most recent 1200 lbs. vs. the 1050 lbs. per the original design. The current factory can not verify this as it was done one on one to those who personally contacted the original factory. Unfortunately, this modification approval has essentially become a legend of sorts because of the lack of documentation. I have a close friend, though, that made that personal contact. I have no personal knowledge of any factory approved design modifications for any of the other Kitfox models, though there may be some.

[gbright]

Thanks John and Lowell !!!

I will have to get pictures of the data plate and the log book entry for stall speed (if entered) for the Fox I'm looking at, hoping it is LSA.

Spent the day at Triple Aerodome, in South Carolina, grass runway, 7000 x 200. Verh smooth too.

No Foxes here :( But got a ride in a Highlander, Small cabin to me, but it did have tundra tjres, so the nose was HIGH enough to make taxi difficult to see over the nose.

Yll take.care, and THANKS, Grant

[jtpitkin06]

Thanks John and Lowell !!!

I will have to get pictures of the data plate and the log book entry for stall speed (if entered) for the Fox I'm looking at, hoping it is LSA.

Spent the day at Triple Aerodome, in South Carolina, grass runway, 7000 x 200. Verh smooth too.

No Foxes here :( But got a ride in a Highlander, Small cabin to me, but it did have tundra tjres, so the nose was HIGH enough to make taxi difficult to see over the nose.

Yll take.care, and THANKS, Grant

The data plate may; or, may not, show a gross weight

Here's the reg on data plates...

45.13 Identification data.
(a) The identification required by § 45.11(a) and (b) shall include the following information:
(1) Builder's name.
(2) Model designation.
(3) Builder's serial number.
(4) Type certificate number, if any.
(5) Production certificate number, if any

Lines four and five do not apply to experimental aircraft so a data plate on an amateur built airplane may be as simple as:

Builder - Joe Sixpack
model JS1
Serial no. 001

...and as Lowell has pointed out, other than in the w and b a gross weight may be hard to find;or, show up in unusual locations. Note on his airworthiness certificate in section E that limitations are part of the certificate. However, those limitations may be only "spins prohibited" or a whole litany of items. Stick with the W and B as it is the required document.

[t j]

My operating limitations have this statement;

Following satisfactory
completion of the required number of flight hours in the flight test area, the pilot must certify in the records that the aircraft has been shown to comply with § 91.319(b). Compliance with § 91.319(b) must be recorded in the aircraft records with the following, or a similarly worded, statement: “I certify that the prescribed flight test hours have been completed and the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features, and is safe for operation. The following aircraft operating data has been demonstrated during the flight testing: speeds Vso ______, Vx ______, and Vy ______,
and the weight ______ and CG location ______ at which they were obtained.”
Some experimentals built in the past do not have this statement in their operating limitations, according to the owners. V speeds are determined at maximum weight, so if you see this in the operating limitations ask the owner for the documentation of it. I put the statement in the aircraft log book.

[gbright]

Thanks for the clarifications.

I have ruled out one Fox because of an interesting dilemma:

The weight and balance is dated the day of the FAA sign off. It shows the gross weight as 1320.

The data plate is fully filled out with model, serial number, and a gross of 1550 !

In this case, I am guessing (!) the data plate rules.

This is an interesting conflict.

Blue skies today, you can see 70 miles from 3500 ft.

Cheers, Grant

[RobS]

It is an interesting and common dilemma! There were a number of planes I considered, only to discover it's MGTOW was above the LSA limit.

Without any change in the 3rd class medical rule, it would seem new kits listing 1320 as the limit would provide more resale opportunities - considering the aircraft could structurally handle considerably more weight. No doubt folks building kits before the LSA rules came out wanted to make the MGTOW match what the kit allowed - and that proves to be a dilemma for those of us needing/wanting an LSA.

Indecision on the FAA's part has caused much heartburn!! And who knows if we will ever get a decision . . . .

[t j]

Thanks for the clarifications.

I have ruled out one Fox because of an interesting dilemma:

The weight and balance is dated the day of the FAA sign off. It shows the gross weight as 1320.

The data plate is fully filled out with model, serial number, and a gross of 1550 !

In this case, I am guessing (!) the data plate rules.

This is an interesting conflict.

Blue skies today, you can see 70 miles from 3500 ft.

Cheers, Grant


Yes, it is odd that the inspector didn't catch that.

[dcsfoto]

I think the logbook entry rules. You are required to declare the Gross weight in the aircraft records.


David Kelm
7 SS 912iS

[Paul Z]

The FAA is concerned with Paperwork, let us not forget they are bureaucrats. Whatever the Paperwork says is what the FAA has for a Record, and if the Paperwork says 1320, then it’s 1320. But make sure what the Paperwork says at the FAA. If the Paperwork truly says 1320#s I’d remake the data plate.

[gbright]

Thanks Paul, I am waiting to see what the logbook shows. Will advise once I have that info.

Grant

[jdmcbean]

For clarity sake:
One should not remove and replace the data plate without understanding the rules governing that. It can get a little strange and I can assure you that there is a picture in the FSDO file of the data plate for that aircraft should an incident occur. The DAR and the FAA has taken pictures of every one we have done. 14 CFR part 43 and part 45

The Model IV 1050 gross to 1200 gross modification offered by DennyAerocraft and was done for float operations ONLY. Once floats were removed and returned the gear it did not apply and was once again a 1050. The equivalent of adding the 10-15 percent gross increase when on floats... very similar to what happens on many of the certified aircraft. This has been true to my personal knowledge since 1999. This does not apply to the Model 3.
There is no test data to substantiate this modification. We also have not been able to find any aircraft "DATA" to support the automatic increase of gross weight by 10-15 percent because it is put on floats.

The entry in the log book for the phase one completion should state the gross the V speeds were obtained.

The Weight and Balance sheet is required to have in the aircraft and should reflect the actual empty weight and balance with the gross weight. However, these can be (and have been) changed.

The Limitations, also required to have in the aircraft, may or may not have the gross weight shown as the phase one testing has not been accomplished.

So the log book will most likely be the bible... but if the data plate, log book and weight and balance sheet do not match it will raise questions.

Who will know?? maybe no one... but if there is an incident or accident the records will be looked at with more scrutiny by the FAA and certainly the insurance.

PS.. there is no requirement to have the gross weight on the data plate. But if it is you can bet it will be used.

[Paul Z]

That is why I said check the paperwork with the FAA. I'd bet their paperwork will show the weight & balance that is currently with the airplane has been modified and dated appropriately. I had one person trying to sell me a Kitfox that had a weight & balance for both 1550 lbs & 1320 lbs. he said to pick the one I wanted to use. I hadn't thought of the fact that with the ID plate saying 1550 lbs, someone will probably flow it at that weight. By regulation if the plane had been flown at that weight it would no longer be elligable 1320 lb weight limit. Personally, with that in mind if you are looking for a 1320 lb aircraft, I'd walk away from that plane.

[gbright]

I hear you John.

This Fox 7 has an interesting history. Built in Oregon, now living in the NE.

I am guessing this Fox didn't have any pictures taken, because of the log book lack of data.

The log book has the all the entries shown by TJ below, except the values are ALL BLANKs, i.e. no values filled in, just lines drawn to fill in the values including gross weight.

The weight and balance is shown as 1320 and is dated the same day as the initial entries.

The data plate appears to be glued on from the picture (a dot of glue in each hole, one side is loose and pulled away from the fabric.

If the log book governs, it seems to be LSA confirmed by the weight and balance.

Interesting set of facts.

Grant

[avidflyer]

It is not very hard to get the paperwork the FAA has on a plane.


Serial Number 27-7304926 Status Expired Manufacturer Name PIPER Certificate Issue Date 08/10/1995 Model PA-23-250 Expiration Date 06/30/2012 Type Aircraft Fixed Wing Multi-Engine Type Engine Reciprocating Pending Number Change None Dealer No Date Change Authorized None Mode S Code (base 8 / oct) 50130327 MFR Year 1972 Mode S Code (base 16 / hex) A0B0D7 Type Registration Co-Owned Fractional Owner NO


Registered Owner

Name ELLEDGE KERMIT L Street 301 SHEFFIELD DR City SOUTHLAKE State TEXAS County TARRANT Zip Code 76092-7142 Country UNITED STATES


Airworthiness

Engine Manufacturer LYCOMING Classification Standard Engine Model TI0-540 SER Category Normal A/W Date 10/13/1972
The information contained in this record should be the most current Airworthiness information available in the historical aircraft record. However, this data alone does not provide the basis for a determination regarding the airworthiness of an aircraft or the current aircraft configuration. For specific information, you may request a copy of the aircraft record at http://aircraft.faa.gov/e.gov/ND/ (http://aircraft.faa.gov/e.gov/ND/)


If you click on the bottom link, it will take you to the page where you can get the paperwork for this plane. I just picked an N # at random to show this and this plane came up. I did a copy and paste from the FAA website, and for some reason just the wordage showed up, not the form it's all typed into. I've ordered paperwork from the FAA for several different planes, and never saw any pictures that had been taken of anything. Not saying there aren't any, but none came to me from the FAA. On one plane, there were about 160 pages. That one cost about $15. Jim Chuk

[gbright]

I got the answer.

Paul and Avidflyer had the answer. The paperwork submitted to the FAA shows 1550.

Form OMB No. 2120-0018 "Eligibility Statement Amateur-Built Aircraft," must be accompanied by a "Weight and Balance for N1234M" These two forms are processed by OK City and are stamped date received.

On the aircraft in question, the weight and balance submitted to the FAA shows 1550, but the weight and balance accompanying the logbook shows, 1320.

Consequently, the form submitted to the FAA governs, not the log book, nor the weight and balance accompanying the logbook.

Good learning exercise...I learned a bunch about what builders submit to the FAA in order to receive "Special Airworthiness Certificate."

Thanks to all you helped the learning process.

Cheers, Grant

PS. I bought a Fox Super Sport with properly documented paperwork submitted to the FAA for 1320!

[dcsfoto]

ok the FAA Form 8130-12 and W&B that is sent in at the time of certification is PRIOR to flight testing.

at the end of the 40 hrs of flight test you enter into the aircraft records the as tested gross weight of the aircraft.

that is now your gross weight because that is the flight test limit.

if you want to go to the 1550 you must go back into Phase one and
do a flight test series at 1550 lbs.

the gross weight declared in the aircraft records by the builder
after flight test is the official gross weight of the aircraft.
David Kelm FAA DAR

[Paul Z]

There are a lot of people that don't realize the FAA keeps that in the record. I'm glad you looked into it with the FAA. I almost got caught by the same issue.

[gbright]

Exactly, Paul.

That is why I posted "what I learned.' The paperwork at the FAA governs.

I am totally happy with the new bird at 1320 ! It can probably fly longer than I can :)

Cheers, Grant