Looks like I get to fly a IV- any tips??

[Az350x]

Was referred to a guy yesterday who has a 582-powered IV that he needs a checkout in. I'm a CFI with tailwheel (and tailwheel instructing) experience, although not recently. Was told I can get current/comfortable next week in the plane before instructing the owner (I'll be flying it with our mutual friend who referred me- he can't do it himself as he's busy and not a CFI). I'm not planning to teach the owner until I know the plane pretty well, but I've been wanting to get back into TW flying, so am excited about this opportunity both to fly TW and to get to know a Kitfox better.

I've flown a lot of TW models- Great Lakes, Citabrias, Super Decathlon, Piper Pacer, Stinson 108, Gull-wing Stinson, Cessna 120, 140, 170, Champ, J-3 Cub, Super Cub- can't think of more offhand. But, this will be my first experience with a Kitfox and also flying behind a 582 (the only Rotax I've flown was the Katana years ago when they came out with a 80-hp 912 and electric CS prop).

So, anybody have any good gouge to share? ;)

Thanks!

[cgruby]

Yeah, just keep the pointy end forward and it'll fly just like a "real" airplane. Probably the biggest problem you'll have is slowing it down on the approach. Remember this thing stalls at 30, so you can't bring it in at 80. You should be rock solid on 50 during the approach. Do that and keep you feet moving once on the ground, and enjoy.

[HighWing]

Tony,
A story. I once used a CFI for biannual flight reviews who flew a lot in Alaska. he loved tail draggers and especially Kitfoxes. He would always ask if he could take it for a while and loved to fly along the runway touching first right wheel then left with a grin on his face. Problem - after every BFR, I had to change the tires. I couldn't convince him that he was not lined up properly to the runway and he would scrub the rubber to the cord on the outer edges of the tires.

The long axis on most airplanes will approximate the outer surface of the cowl. Not on a Model IV. The cowl tapers toward the spinner and if you line up using the cowl surface you are in a slight crab. When I was transitioning, I was advised to put a mark on the windshield that would indicate the center line of the plane. While on the ground, line the airplane up facing a landmark such as a distant tree. Get in the cockpit, wiggle a bit to find the comfortable position, then with a grease pencil or some other lexan compatible marker. - I used a strip of fine line masking tape - put a vertical mark over the tree or other landmark. When on approach while focused on the end of the runway, the marks will help with the line-up.

Another thought, the only horizontal structure within view of the pilot is the forward spar carry through. Kitfoxes are notoriously flown one wing low.

[t j]

Does the friend have experience flying a two stroke powered kitfox? Managing the engine temperatures...EGTs and water temp...requires some techniques different than a four stroke.

The one thing that has fooled many experienced pilots flying a kitfox for the first time is they touch down in a crab due to lining up the side of the engine cowl with the center line. That doesn't work as the cowl is tapered to the nose more than you realize.

On the ramp before you fly, line the airplane up with an object 1/4 mile or more away. Stand behind the plane and sight over the top to be sure it is lined up straight with the object. Now sit in the seat and use a grease pencil to make a short vertical line on the windscreen that lines up with that object. Use that line to line up on the center line when landing.

Do some slow flight and stalls before you land the first time. See where this one stalls on the ASI.

If at all possible find a copy of "How To Fly A Kitfox" by Ed Downs. The material has also been incorporated into the "kitfox Pilot's Guide" available from the factory. Page 7 in the catalog. http://kitfoxaircraft.com/Product_Catalog/KApartscatalog.pdf

Looks like I typed too slow, doubled down on the landing site line:)

[Slyfox]

I guess the only thing would be to make sure the tail wheel is operating properly. doesn't unlock with full left or right. this could mean you land with the tail wheel unlocked :eek: you will have a ride, a wild ride.

[Az350x]

The guy I'm flying with has been maintaining the airplane and has put some time on it- I'm assuming that means he's familiar with Rotax operation.

These have a locking tailwheel? The Gull-wing Stinson (BIG!) was the only TW I flew previously that had one of those!

Is there a good reference for me to read up on 582 engine management? I've been flying turbines for awhile! (push to go faster, pull back to go slower) :o I'm kidding some- I have a lot of piston engine background, but very little Rotax...

Thanks for the feedback all!

[Wheels]

My instructor taught me to fly a j-3 cub. Then when I got in the Model IV kit fox with him, he wrecked it while landing. I was technically the PIC, but lets be honest, I just bought it and he said he could fly it. oops.

I have 500+ hours in the rebuilt plane, it AINT NO J-3 CUB!
It flies fast, it lands slow, 47 mph on the nose at touchdown with flaps. Its roll rate is faster than an aerobatic decathlon and you can't learn it in a two or three hours.
go see Paul Leadebrand at Stick N Rudder or plan on getting some "experience."
Just saying.

[Av8r3400]

I'd second Wheels' advise and get yourself some training, first. I've known several experienced tailwheel flyers (and CFIs) who have wrecked Kitfoxes because they didn't know what to expect. These are very quick on the controls planes. That's what makes them fun. However, if you aren't ready for what the plane will do, it will bite you. I like to tell people that a Kitfox will do exactly what you tell it to do, very quickly. If you tell it to do something stupid, it will do something stupid, very quickly. It is a very, very rudder intensive airplane. It sure ain't no Cub or Champ. I've never flown one, but I'm told it's more like a Pitts.

After you get some type training, the next thing you should do without exception is to remove the unlocking cam on the Maul tailwheel. This keeps the tailwheel locked into the rudder cables preventing it from going full swivel. This is the main cause of ground looping these planes. It was recommended to me, and I agree with the advise, that this cam should stay off for at least the first 100 hours of pilot time in the plane.

I have over 500 hours in mine. It still tries to bite on occasion. And yes, I have ground looped it. Luckily, very slowly with no damage. It was due to tailwheel shimmy which unlocked the wheel, coupled with the brake peddle design.

As to flying a Rotax 2-stroke, you also need some training on that, too. I'm far from an expert on these, but what I do know is that you can't treat them like a 4-stroke engine. Cold seizing, shock cooling, proper EGT monitoring and interpreting what the EGTs are telling you is critical to not have the pilot cooling fan quit unexpectedly.

[Jono]

H There,
I'm by no means an expert but I do fly a Mk4 (912). This is the plane I learnt in and so far I haven't really had any trouble with other tail wheels I've flown since learning in the Kitfox.

My observations would be:

Kitfox is a numbers plane - You need to nail the approach speeds or you will bounce
Flaperons = Wheelers
No Flaperons = 3 pointers
When you open the throttle everything happens extremely quickly (compared to a heavy GA plane) be ready to feed in rudder as you apply power (quicker and more than any other plane I've flown)
It has a narrow wheel base (unless modified)
When in the flare, the aircraft's speed deteriorates rapidly (when training this results in a few "dumpers" or heavier than hoped landings"
One nice advantage is its go-around ability... excellent power to weight.. add power and you're flying almost instantly.



Having said all of that.... It's an extremely fun and cheap plane to fly. Anyone can fly it, few can fly it well. ( I hope to be able to fly it well one day)

[t j]

The guy I'm flying with has been maintaining the airplane and has put some time on it- I'm assuming that means he's familiar with Rotax operation.



Is there a good reference for me to read up on 582 engine management?


This fellow who has experience in the plane is your best source on how to manage the 582. He should be able to show you how to manage throttle position and prop loading.

The main difference from a 4 stroke is the EGts will climb when the loading on the prop is reduced when you lower the nose or if you leave too much throttle in and slow to approach speed they can easily exceed the maximum limit of 1200 F.

Here's three short videos that explain in easy terms what is going on with the different throttle settings.

Idle http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=2061115451001

Mid range http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=2080025640001

Full Throttle http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=2073201298001

[Az350x]

Thanks again for the feedback, all. Those EAA videos were quite informative. I think I'm more intimidated by the engine management now than anything! It all seems pretty familiar though- I flew twin-Cessnas for a couple years with geared Continental engines (GTSIO-520s in Cessna 421 pressurized twins). I do remember that one of the big no-nos was letting relative airflow "drive" the motors, as opposed to keeping enough power in so that the motors were always pulling the airplane. Seems like sort of the same thing. Of course, many GA airplanes had issues with shock cooling also that required a certain amount of engine management as well.

I did find out that this IV I'm planning to fly next week does have both Grove landing gear and a pneumatic tailwheel. Sounds like those should both be helpful modifications...

[av8rps]

I have 1300 hours behind 2 strokes mostly in Avid Flyers (predecessor to the Kitfox and similar in handling), but also in a Kitfox IV-1050 with a 582. I enjoyed my time behind 2 strokes - they are simple engines that make lots of power per pound, and if on a light airplane can provide incredible performance. But unfortunately, the 2 strokes aren't known for being as reliable as most 4 strokes. And not that any aircraft engine on any plane can't quit at any time (I've had 2 Lycomings in certified aircraft fail me), but just be aware there could be a higher potential for an emergency landing with the 2 stroke. Fortuntely, if you were to have an engine failure in an airplane, a Kitfox is a great one to have it in as it is so capable you can land it in a really tight space if you need to.

I own a Model IV Kitfox and love it. As far as flying one I agree that they are light on controls and somewhat sensitive, which in my opinion is a big part of what makes them so much fun. The best word I can use to describe these airplanes is... "Nimble". They are not hard to fly at all in my opinion, but they also aren't a Cub. They are shorter coupled and have a much higher horsepower to weight ratio than a Cub, making them a lot more high performance and much quicker reacting. But when I say quick reacting I mean that in a good way.

I once taught a flight instructor (who flew a Cub typically) how to fly a 2 stroke Avid Mark IV (again, similar to a Model IV Kitfox). Once he adjusted to it (approx 45 minutes) he really liked it, commenting that it was a lot sportier feeling and nimble than the Cub. He did initially find the adverse yaw to be a bit different than most planes he flew. But the Kitfox IV has less adverse yaw than the Avid does so I'm guessing had he been in a Kitfox IV he probably wouldn't have noticed that quite as much.

I agree with the previous comments about Maule tailwheels. That tailwheel has probably wrecked more Kitfoxes and Avids than any other single thing. It also probably has done the most damage to the reputation of these fine little airplanes than any other thing. But as long as the tailwheel is working properly, they have nice ground handling characteristics, and anyone that can fly a Cub can fly a Kitfox. At least that's my opinion.

For speeds I recommend flying a 65 mph climb, and at least a 60 mph approach, bleeding off any excess speed in the flare. Yes, you might experience some float at that speed, but you can always experiment with slower speeds that allow you to land shorter once you get more hours under your belt. The Kitfox is a STOL airplane, and like most STOL airplanes it can develop a lot of drag when you slow it down, causing a very high sink rate in a short time. So a lot of people have dropped these airplanes in hard enough to damage them, and their pride.

I say all that after having been flying these types of airplanes since 1986, and pretty much every model and engine combination. I've seen a lot of them get wrecked over the years, and 2nd to the Maule tailwheel problems, people getting them too slow in the landing is what I believe is the primary mistake newcomers make with the airplane. Yes, the Kitfox IV stalls much slower than 60 mph. But unless you are able to recognize the need to use inertia and/or power to offset the excessive sink rate that can quickly develop at speeds closer to the stall speed, you might find yourself in a situation you'd rather not be in.

On a last note, that 60+ mph approach recommendation is the same number I recommend for an engine off glide speed. Get slower than that and you will not only develop a really high sink rate, but you will also not have enough elevator authority to flare. That could ruin an otherwise good day... Granted, not every Kitfox is the same...some can fly slower than others. And some airspeed indicators have more error than others. But as a general rule, 60 mph is a good number to remember when flying these airplanes.

My two cents worth...

Paul Seehafer

[beeryboats]

Holy Crap guys! You all have me second guessing my decision to get back into flying. I thought this plane would be close to what I was used to. I learned how to fly in a Piper Vagabond (little brother to the Cub), then Dad bought a Baby Great Lakes. Both would keep you busy on the rudder pedals. The Lakes did have a true locking tail wheel. It needed one! All I've ever flow had a tail wheel. But you guys have me worried now.
Jay

[av8rps]

Jay,

Unless there is something wrong with the Kitfox (or particularly with the tailwheel), with the experience in the Vag and the Lakes, I doubt you would have any trouble with the Kitfox.

And if you want to alleviate any potential issues with a Maule tailwheel, just remove the screw on the back side of the tailwheel casting that holds a cam plate/bracket, and set the bracket in the hangar somewhere, then go out and enjoy the Kitfox. The only thing removing the bracket will do is not allow the tailwheel to swivel 360 degrees. But it will still turn with the rudder left and right. Removing that plate is cheap insurance if you have any concerns about a Maule tailwheel swiveling when you don't want it to.

Don't let any of this scare you off. Kitfox are great flying airplanes.

Paul

[Paul Z]

I'll second the comment Kitfoxes are great flying airplanes.

[Az350x]

UPDATE-

First, I have a bit more info on the airplane than I knew when I started this thread. It's a IV-1200, with a non-blue head 582 on it and a non-adjustable 3-blade prop. Empty weight (from what I can find) is about 640. The gear is Grove (I mentioned that earlier) and it has a brand-new Matco single-arm pneumatic tailwheel (doesn't seem to be "locking" type- no detent either).

Question- when you guys mentioned "locking" type tailwheels earlier, were you referring to the type with a detent that keeps it relatively straight up to a certain amount of resistance, and then breaks free and allows the tailwheel to caster further (such as Scott- fairly common on production-built taildraggers)? I'm thinking now that's possibly what was alluded to earlier in the thread. It threw me for a loop (figuratively) because from my experience a locking tailwheel actually has a handle in the cockpit and a cable running all the way to the tailwheel, and you lock it straight for takeoffs and landings. I flew a Gull-wing Stinson (Reliant- BIG airplane with a feeble 300-hp Lycoming radial) from Virginia to Arizona once, and it had such a tailwheel setup. Just trying to clarify which type of "locking" tailwheel we were discussing.

So, I went to the airport yesterday with hopes of getting that flight in. Unfortunately, things didn't work out with the other gentleman's schedule, etc., and we weren't able to fly it yet. :( And now, darnit, I have to go to work next week for about 10 days. Bummer!

Anyhow, hopefully in a few weeks things will mesh better and I'll get to fly this thing. I did start it up and taxi around some. It's small! Fortunately, I'm not a real big guy at 5 9 and 170. Suffice it to say I'm excited to get to fly it one of these days, and hoping that it will lead to the CFO's approval for me to get one of my own, lol. :rolleyes:

[t j]

Question- when you guys mentioned "locking" type tailwheels earlier, were you referring to the type with a detent that keeps it relatively straight up to a certain amount of resistance, and then breaks free and allows the tailwheel to caster further (such as Scott- fairly common on production-built taildraggers)?

Yes. The model 4 kits all came with a Maul tailwheel. Many on this site do not like the "Unlocking" feature. I like mine.

[beeryboats]

I would call mine a semi-locking type. It will only release when the rudder has full deflection. Both the Vagabond and Clipper dad owned were like this as well. This is a bit of a pain when the wings are folded back on my Kitfox as the rudder will not go full travel. So the tailwheel will not release unless you crawl under and manually trigger the locking catch. So made a dolly for not only the tail, but the mains as well. I can now spin or move the aircraft sideways in the barn. Very handy!

Now dad's Baby Great Lakes had a manual locking tail wheel. And it needed one! Google a photo and you will see the ultimate in short coupled tail dragger! Anyway, it had a cable release in the cockpit. It sat so nose high that you couldn't see straight ahead on the ground. You had to "S" taxi like a WWII fighter!
Jay

[av8rps]

The Maule tailwheel we talked about is not a locking tailwheel (as in one that you can lock so it stays straight). What we meant is that it moves left and right with rudder movement, but has the ability to "unlock" by locking a brake, allowing it to swivel up to 360 degrees for turning the aircraft in its own radius on the ground, or is used to push the aircraft backwards into a hangar. The problem with the Maule tailwheel is that ON SOME AIRCRAFT the full swivel feature will engage in flight from full rudder deflection (it shouldnt go full swivel in the air, only on the ground), and the tailwheel can then move left or right (typically 90 degrees) so as soon as the tailwheel touches the ground you are in a super hard right or left 90 degree turn, which ultimarely results in a abrupt and severe groundloop.

With all that said, if the Kitfox has a Matco tailwheel on it (vs a Maule), it is highly unlikely you will have any ground handling issues associated with the tailwheel.