LED Landing lights

[Esser]

Hey everyone,

Daniel and I are designing a set of LED landing lights that fit in the cut out wingtip that Kitfox sells.

We think we have a fairly good setup but there are a few details to iron out.

The size is 3" by 2" which produces 3100 lumens at 35 watts and 2.5 amps with over 20000 candela. We think the weight will be in the 5 to 6 oz range.

This is quite a bit brighter than the Microsuns 1800 lumens.

I think we can put these together for under $500 for a pair (Compare $900 for Microsuns).

My questions for everyone is would anyone else be interested in them while we are making them?

Our last iron to kink out is making them more water resistant. These would also not have a wigwag feature built in, you would have to figure out our own relay for that or go through VP-X

[Danzer1]

You can get an LED strobe, landing light, wig-wag controller from Crazed Pilot for a whooping 26 bucks.

[DesertFox4]

You can get an LED strobe, landing light, wig-wag controller from Crazed Pilot for a whooping 26 bucks!

Save your money. They didn't last long enough to make one flight.

[Danzer1]

Save your money. They didn't last long enough to make one flight.

Well, maybe defective, wired incorrectly, over amped, shorted, who knows. I do know of several installations that have never had any issues. They've been selling them for a few years now.

[DesertFox4]

Poorly made the housing fell apart then the lights stopped working. Like I say, junk. So was the GoPro cable I bought from them. It worked 3 times then stopped when the end that goes in the camera fell off.

[kmach]

You can get an LED strobe, landing light, wig-wag controller from Crazed Pilot for a whooping 26 bucks!

http://www.crazedpilot.com/aircraft-strobe-light-led-landing-lights-wig-wag-controller/

I bought these led lights with controller ,,, I could not bring myself to install them in my aircraft . You get what you pay for.

I went the Aeroled system , could not be happier

[DesertFox4]

You do get what you pay for.
I feel worse about the GoPro cable as that was the same price as many other sites charge for theirs.

I'm sure the guys at Crazed Pilot sell many great items everyday. They shipped my order extremely fast. I'll keep an eye on their site for other products.

[Sabre]

I inquired about the CRAZEDpilot LED lights and found that the 26 LED lights were rated at 250 lumens each and the 48 LED lights were rated at 400 lumens each. The LED strobe controller they sell is rated at 5 amps so this maybe a option for the wigwag effect. I've mountain biked at night on trials and built/bought LED lamps for this purpose. They are quite bright (some lamps claim up to plus 7000 lumens) and these units are quite rugged. They get beat around pretty good on the trail as well as occasional crash to the ground as well as tree branches trying to remove them from the handle bars and helmet; they are still going strong. These might be a option to explore as they are relatively inexpensive. Most though are less than 12 volts requiring a regulator.

[Danzer1]

The LED strobe controller they sell is rated at 5 amps so this maybe a option for the wigwag effect

I agree, my comments were regarding the controller only for wig-wag with other brand LED lights. I'm not sure if the other "dissatisfaction" was with the Crazed Pilot LED lights, controller or both. The controller is pretty simple, the likely cause of failures would be overload or reversing polarity (also true of any LED controller).

[Jfquebec]

Hi josh...i order 3 led chip last week for making strobe..
10watt ,900 lumen for 2.95$ each with driver..free shipping..
And i order amd strobe module from superbright led...for 17$...
This little led are very powerfull..and an lens reflector from alibaba...

It is not very expensive if it work...i will make some heating test ..

[Esser]

Let me know what you come up with JF. I was think of alibaba to get the cost down further but I don't want to sacrifice quality so I would be interested to see how how make out

[Jfquebec]

yes...i will give you "come back" of my led project....i check for 30w,50w and 100 w led chip ...but it work on 32 volt,,,so you need an tranformer
but it is really bright...30 watt is 3000 lumen,,,50 watt is 4000-5000 lumen and 100 watt is 8000-9000 lumen:eek:...
i will make a tes how far you see the strobe in daylight with the 10 watt....and if i dont like the result i will going with 30w with tranformer

[Danzer1]

Here's another idea for you guys: http://www.amazon.com/3800lm-Outdoor-Headlight-Headlamp-Bicycle/dp/B009PWE6RW

Already in a weatherproof housing, all you'd have to do is rewire the switching and power (which you have to do anyway) and mount them.

Greg

[FoxDB]

I ordered this pair as backup lights for my Suzuki Samurai. I installed 1 and tested, it is so good I don't think I will in stall the other. I believe they are 1620 Lumens each.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2PCS-LED-Work-Light-Bar-18W-Square-Flood-Beam-Waterproof-for-ATV-Jeep-Truck-Boat-/261666650757?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3cec8c3a85

[Esser]

Well here are some pictures for everyone. We are designing it to fit into the kitfox wing. It is a little bigger than we were hoping for but we made it fit.

We designed a water proof housing which drove up the weight to 196 grams(7 oz). We hope to have the first prototype fully machines and assembled in a couple weeks to verify strength, weight, and performance. So far we have the chip and the light and it looks very promising. Hard to show in pictures.

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b423/joshesser/11042968_10152607305141415_4697627330197613629_n_z psfvmtkjga.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/joshesser/media/11042968_10152607305141415_4697627330197613629_n_z psfvmtkjga.jpg.html)

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b423/joshesser/10393679_10152607305271415_6530526680487024256_n_z pstzfxayc2.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/joshesser/media/10393679_10152607305271415_6530526680487024256_n_z pstzfxayc2.jpg.html)

[HighWing]

My experience. I put some home brew (Meaning non name branded) position and strobes on my currently flying Model IV. They were from a design by the electronics GURU at Kitplanes. It wasn't until recently that I re-read my Airworthiness Certificate and Operating Limitations that I noticed that the airplane is limited to daytime VFR. At the time of the inspection, there was no talk about any of the systems, electrical or otherwise, just a fairly thorough inspection. You guys who are going the inexpensive or home brew route might put a little research and documentation into your build book and maybe should bring up the subject during the inspection. I doubt many of these guys know a lumen from a lemon, but they do recognize a Whelen when they see one.

[Jfquebec]

Hi Lowell...for me..like you said...i cant fly in night..so i just want an good strobe for make sure everyone see me in sky in daytime...that is why i dont need a light on plane..

[Dave S]

Lowell,

A follow-up on your statement & my experience....

"...my Airworthiness Certificate and Operating Limitations that I noticed that the airplane is limited to daytime VFR. At the time of the inspection, there was no talk about any of the systems, electrical or otherwise, just a fairly thorough inspection."

As we have come to understand the real world......all DARs operate under the same agency and under the same rules for their profession; however there are plenty of observed individual variances among DARs with regard to what they cover, how thorough the inspection is, what is emphasised during the inspection, etc, etc. I have come to the conclusion that a builder needs to think about what is important to them and the use their plane will get and then communicate and ask a lot of questions of the DAR so the Builder & DAR are traveling the same wavelength.

I knew from the start that I wanted limitations that did not exclude Day/Night VFR.....not that I fly at night all the time but it has utility for dragging it home late after the sun goes down. I did communicate with the DAR before the inspection regarding this issue and he says...."Sure...we can do D/N VFR and here is how I will evaluate the plane for this purpose....If you want LED position & Strobes, I want to see: 1) an approved LED unit, or 2) an unapproved LED unit that you have substantiated the light quantity, quality and radius is equivalent to the requirement". For non-LED systems, he was fine if it was either a traditional unit or a non approved unit that has bulbs which are acceptable in an approved unit. The deal that I was reminded of is that LED systems were considered in their infancy at the time I requested an airworthiness inspection.

He also asked me if I was intending to do acrobatics...well, no......but he was pretty good at asking all the operational questions.

Sincerely,

Dave S

[Danzer1]

Dave,

I have heard of this being done.
"Sure...we can do D/N VFR and here is how I will evaluate the plane for this purpose.

How did he/they modify/write the language in your operating limitations to allow night vfr?

Did he also require the aircraft to comply with 14 CFR 91.205?

Greg

[Dave S]

HI Greg,

I'll have to wait till the next time I get to the hangar and look up the exact language of my limitations; however, I do know it says day night VFR.

The caveat can be a bit confusion....14 CFR 91.205 does not apply to any aircraft other than those aircraft with a standard airworthiness certificate - so experimentals do not have to comply with dot 205.

14 CFR 91.209 does require the use of anticollision and position lights for night operation but is moot on the equipment requirements - just says you have to have lights without addressing approval status (TSO or whatever). That is where our experimental aircraft can be required to comply with equivalence without regard to equipment approval status via the limitations in the judgment of the FAA or its representatives. Sort of like the recent conversation about ADS-B equipment - equivalent performance required ( which should be established through the required testing of the equipment) but not TSO.

Every time I look at this stuff and follow the daisy-chain in the regulations, I can see lots of opportunity for alternate interpretations and some judgment calls....I am just happy as a clam that I made it through the process and that I can fly my Kitfox at night:).

Hopefully I will remember to write down the language the next time I am at the hangar.:o

Sincerely

Dave S

[Danzer1]

Hi Dave,


The caveat can be a bit confusion....14 CFR 91.205 does not apply to any aircraft other than those aircraft with a standard airworthiness certificate - so experimentals do not have to comply with dot 205.

That's why I asked about the wording in your limitations. I've heard of, but not seen personally, wording in the limitations that states something to the effect of "in compliance with part 91.205" (as a specific limitation reference).

Hoping you could clarify how they wrote yours.

Thanks, Greg

[Esser]

Aeroleds only certified light is the pulsar. Everything else is exp and lots of people are flying at night with them

[Dave S]

Greg,

I'll look up my limitations the next time I get to the plane....I don't want to guess and I do want to supply you with an accurate response.

Probably won't be flying tomorrow......snow forcast and something about wind gusts equal to a Kitfox's stalling speed......this too shall pass...soon I hope.

Dave S

[dcsfoto]

All DARs operate from an FAA Order 8130.2G Change 1
that is where the limitations come from and for night
flight you must meet 91.205.

D Kelm

[Danzer1]

All DARs operate from an FAA Order 8130.2G Change 1
that is where the limitations come from and for night
flight you must meet 91.205.

D - I know you are a DAR and maybe you can shed some additional light on the subject. I do understand there were operating limitations written prior to April 2011 that did not reference 91.205. I have also heard of some (but not personally seen) some written since that either did or did not specifically reference 91.205 even though they all should have that reference in them (EAB only) LSA being a little different.

I have also heard of some "flexibility" in the interpretation of "approved" such as what Dave S mentioned below with equivalent products.

Have also heard of varying interpretations of the instrument and equipment requirements in 91.205 as it also requires for night vfr - a list of "approved" instruments and also "approved" safety harnesses. I know of several that never had the instruments or harnesses even looked at. And I know of a few others that were nixed on inspection because the harnesses were not FAA approved, but similar. Any comment?

As relates to LSA, I recall the requirement is to for the aircraft to be operated in accordance with the operators manual (or something to that affect). So if the aircraft manufacturer said it was equipped for night vfr and you followed the operators manual "you are okay".

However, the requirement for LSA, is also to follow the operating limitations prescribed for the aircraft systems. There were some Rotax and Jabiru engines of certain years of manufacture that were limited by those engine manufacturers to day VFR only unless they were "certified" versions (this has since been changed by Rotax). So there were/are some LSA's that the aircraft manufacturers said "okay" in the manual, yet the engine manufacturer said "no" hence subject to potential issues if the limitations were not also adhered to.

To further add to the confusion, Rotax current view is (direct statement out of their current manuals) - "Unless correctly equipped to provide enough electrical power for night VFR (according latest requirement as ASTM), the ROTAX 912 UL/ULS/ULSFR is restricted to DAY VFR only".

Who determines if an LSA is "correctly equipped" per ASTM and how? ASTM also requires an attitude indicator and instrument lights over and above the FAA 91.205 requirement. Are those also to be installed and inspected?

Likewise who and how would the ASTM standard be reviewed and inspected as relates to "correctly equipped" per ASTM for an EAB?

Not trying to pick on the DAR's, but the confusion in the field exists for the operators as there seems to be a lot of varying "flexibility" in the interpretations and inspections. It's not a perfect world!

Greg

[Dorsal]

This is what my ops limits say

After completion of phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument flight in accordance with § 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under VFR, day only.

[jiott]

Mine says exactly the same as Dorsal's.

[Jfquebec]

this is my first test
so ..in first i try it in my shop and i check the temp...:eek:...when it is on without strobe...it's overheat really fast..''without heatsink''
so i try with strobe driver....better..:D
after i make an small heatsink like you can see in video...and it's again better..
63 degree celsius...but i need to have 50-55 celsius..and all this test are make with 15 feet wire...for the brightness:cool:...you really need an sunglasse..it is very hard for eyes.
so next step is to weld an resistor for each leds and an good circuit breaker..
and for now i dont receive my lens reflector....that will be really cool with that..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pT_clBe1KJk&feature=youtu.be

[SkySteve]

That's BRIGHT!!

[Esser]

Looks good JF. Is that with no reflector lens?

I'm keeping mine down to below 60C with a 40 watt chip but it's a landing light so it's always on.
Building a strobe is next on my list. How big is that unit?

[Jfquebec]

ya Josh...with no lens for now....

this is the strobe module i use...from superbright led...1.5amp

https://www.superbrightleds.com/images/uploads/led-car-bulb-strobe-light-lsc-100b-1.jpg

[Jfquebec]

for a 40 watt led chip..you need an transformer??? or is on 12 volt???

[Esser]

9 to 36V. Super happy with the results so far. We will have to trade notes soon.

[Jfquebec]

this is what it's look like for now...
this is my first experience +/- with fiberglass...so i do more work i think for sanding..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Np2AXokDrdM

[Esser]

Very Nice JF. We are using an omni directional headlight LED for our strobe.

[Esser]

Just an update on our LED landing light. Looks like it will be smaller than we anticipated, will have dedicated wigwag built into the board, water resistant, and still be very light weight (below 6 oz). The down side to making the light smaller is that it is now a dedicated 12v light and cannot be used at 24v at this time.

The light is now 40W 1.8amp and 4000 lumens. We are playing with two lens styles.

One is a 10 degree beam that has 26700 candela and the other is a 45 degree lens that has 14500 candela. The upside to the 45' is that your airplane will be seen more easily from a wide amount of angles for traffic avoidance as well as peripheral lighting on landing.

This is in comparison to the micro sun which seems to be the most popular with kitfoxes at 1500 lumins and 8000 candela.

I should have some prototype design renderings to show everyone soon.

[KFfan]

I look forward to seeing the protos

[DanB]

Kudos to Esser and JF for venturing into the unknown in the efforts to bring down the costs. As mentioned earlier in this thread...you do get what you pay for but some of us just enjoy the tinkering aspect of trying.

I'm currently working on a landing light project for the standard wing tips. I went ahead and purchased these lights from Amazon http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00M1LCAWC?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00

I decided to take on a little more weight to off-set cost differences and they seem to be bright enough. My plan is to have them set to a wig-wag most of the time for visibility, but also be able to set them to full on for the occasional night landing.

I started by making a bracket out of aluminum and fixing the light to what I thought would be a good angle.

93769379

I looked all over the web trying to find something that could work as clear lenses to fit on the tips of my standard wing tips. No joy, so I'm now knee deep in trying my hand at vacuum forming. I made the vacuum box and today taking a mold of the tip in efforts of making a plug. More to come.

[Av8r3400]

I'm doing similar for my mangy fox project. I'm using a smaller round led that will only need a cover 3" wide. Plexi can bea easily warmed in an oven the let gravity bend it over a male plug. My friend helping on the project has made several this way for other planes.

[Esser]

Here is the latest prototype design for those interested.

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b423/joshesser/Catch1167_zpsmbuavbm6.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/joshesser/media/Catch1167_zpsmbuavbm6.jpg.html)

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b423/joshesser/Catch7D73_zpske8gi0wm.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/joshesser/media/Catch7D73_zpske8gi0wm.jpg.html)

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b423/joshesser/Catch_zpsewty9bl1.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/joshesser/media/Catch_zpsewty9bl1.jpg.html)


Designed to fit into the kitfox wingtip
http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b423/joshesser/Kitfox%20Build/80731E09-D540-4247-85DE-33E9DD27CFD4_zpswc6puayf.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/joshesser/media/Kitfox%20Build/80731E09-D540-4247-85DE-33E9DD27CFD4_zpswc6puayf.jpg.html)

[skbenson]

Are you going to have that up at the fly in? I have held off purchasing the landing lights after following your thread. Would love to see it. Regards, Stan

[DanB]

Finally making a bit of progress on the vacuum forming of the lens. Lots of trial and error...
9529
With a little luck I may have this on the plane tomorrow. 9528
9530

[Esser]

Hi Stan,

Short answer is no, unfortunately. I was initially hoping to have them ready by then but as everything in life, it takes longer than anticipated especially when I am doing this on the side.

We are entering the physical prototype phase now. Even since the last pictures I posted up, we have made several changes to make the light physically smaller and stronger but we now think we have it buttoned down.

Realistically, I don't think I will have any to have before christmas. I hope that isn't too late!

[DanB]

Got the lens on the wing tip but I think I will sit out the install on the plane until morning. It's shooting for 112 degrees F today which is probably around 120 in the hanger. If I'm lucky it will be a frosty 100 degrees in the morning. Looking forward to cooler weather in Idaho. ;)

9535

[Paul Z]

Very nice! I guess the plastic was soft enough you didn't even need to heat it up to form it, just put it on the mold, shut the hanger door, and it's done! I'm glad it's only 100 in Dallas. Are those the stock Kitfox Wing Tips? I am contemplating wig wag lights on my plane for safety reasons.

[DanB]

Ha, thanks Paul...using the hanger for an oven is a good idea. Might try that next time.:rolleyes:

I believe these are called the standard wing tips from the factory.

[HighWing]

Dan,
Very nice. I am really impressed and this is based on trying similar things. Did you use Acrylic or Polycarbonate.

I made lenses for the wing tips by pulling Polycarbonate over a mold plug then trimming and Hysoling to a cut out section of the wing tip. I wanted something removable as my wing tips are glued on.
9538

The smaller units were made to cover LED aft position lights, one on each side near the top of the rudder. They were formed in a unit I made that was essentially a copy of what a dentist would use to make a mouth guard.
9539

[DesertFox4]

Dan, that looks really nice. All that hard work is paying off.

[DanB]

Lowell,
That looks so nice on the wing tips...very clean. I used the acrylic for mine.

Today I threw the wing tip on the plane to see how it looked. The only thing I think would look better is if my LED unit was smaller giving the ability to move it forward. Esser, the one you have going looks promising! I'm sure the light will help make me more visible, however, I'm curious if it will flood the runway with enough light. To be determined.

9542

[Esser]

The lights are finished and going into their first production run. I am looking for some people that might be willing to test them out in real world circumstances. PM me if you are interested.

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b423/joshesser/3_zpss5z6mwje.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/joshesser/media/3_zpss5z6mwje.jpg.html)

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b423/joshesser/2_zpsvkswtajc.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/joshesser/media/2_zpsvkswtajc.jpg.html)

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b423/joshesser/1_zpsshbfh23b.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/joshesser/media/1_zpsshbfh23b.jpg.html)

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b423/joshesser/5_zpsev10b9xy.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/joshesser/media/5_zpsev10b9xy.jpg.html)

http://i1042.photobucket.com/albums/b423/joshesser/4_zpsqcw413us.jpg (http://s1042.photobucket.com/user/joshesser/media/4_zpsqcw413us.jpg.html)

[DesertFox4]

They look great Josh. Post or send me dimmensions. They look to be the same shape as the AeroLeds I have currently mounted in my clear wing tips on my model 4.

[jrevens]

Those do look nice, Josh... lots of heat-sink!

[Esser]

Thanks guys. It's amazing how much heat an energy efficient LED makes. With out the sink these things get over 100C in seconds.

The dimensions for the light are 2.30" by 2.60" at the base (It tapers at the face of the lens to 2.50 X2.20) The mounting flanges width across the light is 3.28".

The lights are still bigger than I wanted but they will fit in the standard Kitfox wingtip but you have to mount from behind. I am going on a ski trip for the next 5 days but when I get home I will mock up how it will look in a Kitfox tip with a 3D printed mock up lens.

[skbenson]

Josh, wow those look great. I have not gotten to purchase the landing lights but those sure look like they would be great. Please keep me in the loop as you progress would love to be a customer. regards, Stan

[DesertFox4]

Thanks for the dimmensions Josh.

[Delta Whisky]

Josh - thought you might want to see your lights installed. Well, one anyhow. Perfectly sized, looks nice and a great addition. Thanks for a great design/product.

[Esser]

Nice! You did a great job! Looking forward to it flying through the air

[Delta Whisky]

Sorry for the double post but I'm working on the magic to get a picture in the post.

16629

Thanks for your tolerance.

Hmmm, looks like it really happened. Miracles can still happen. Now, to get them as large as possible.

[Frontier Fox]

Hey Josh

Do you still have your home built landing lights available? Have they held up so far? If so i am interested in purchasing a pair.