considering the purchase of a kitfox 4

[todd]

I am new to the forum and experimental planes as well. I would appreciate some advice! After flying high performance 4 seaters like Bellanca Vikings, I have the itch to fly quite a bit lower and slower. After a few months of google research I narrowed my search to planes with side by side seating and folding wings. I simply do not have time for a full build from scratch.

Yesterday I put a deposit on a 1995 finished in 1999 classic 4 (N61AC) that had been damaged in 2008 and purchased by a man that attempted to get it flying again by purchasing new wing kits. Unfortunately he died before completion in 2012. The plane needs cleaning from seating in a covered barn for a few years now, everything firewall forward, new instruments, new engine, and new prop (at a minimum). Basically for less than $2000 I am getting the undamaged covered fuselage , in tack landing gear, intact covered tail and rudder, 80% completed replacement wing kit and a used Subaru engine(which I will probably sell off cause I have no history on it)

My questions, if other members would be so kind to answer.

1. How difficult is re-registration (FAA says its expired in Oct 2013). Be advised before you answer that the man that died can't sign the title and his friend that is selling the plane is not the owner. I will be calling the FAA tomorrow with this question.
2. How difficult is re certification assuming that I purchase a new powerplant and prop? The FAA says it once had a air worthiness cert but it is not with the paperwork.
3. No build logs accompany the purchase. Since the wings are still uncovered, it needs a new panel and new powerplant I am not very concerned with this. Should I be?
4. The most important question... is this a deal, based on what I have explained, one that I need to run from or is this a plane that could be flying legally and safely in 100hours or so?

[Micro Mong Bldr]

Hi Todd,

Do you have taildragger experience? I don't know about a IV but my II is twitchier on the ground than a Cub or Champ, some dual was a good thing, just a thought for later.

All the best.

Larry

[rv9ralph]

You can get copies of all the documents held by the FAA at the time the Airworthiness Certificate was issued (affidavits by builder, W&B and Operating Limitations (which are part of the AW Cert and must be carried in the aircraft). These are available from the FAA in .pdf format, contact the local FSDO if you decide to purchase.
Ralph

[todd]

Thank you Ralph

That is the insight into this I was looking for!

[Av8r_Sed]

Hi Todd,
Welcome to the forum. First of all, snap it up. At worst you could part it out and get your money back.

Model IV's came in two flavors: the early ones were specified at 1050 lbs gross weight. The later ones were beefed up a bit to 1200 gross. The latter ones are more desirable for the greater useful load and the possibility of a bit heavier engine. Find out the serial number to determine which this one is.

You said you would dump the Subaru which might be a good thing because they're a tad on the heavy side. There have been a number of different engines used, but the common, albeit somewhat expensive choice is a Rotax 912. Mid time examples are going for around $10K these days.

If you want more input, go get some good pictures and post them on the condition of the project.

Finally, since you weren't the original builder and don't have the FAA Repairman's Certificate, you can do the work, but you need to have the work signed off by an A&P with inspection authorization. If you make any major changes (engine) you also need to submit a form to the FAA with new weight & balance and related data.

[jiott]

I doubt very much that 100 hrs or so will have it flying. Maybe 500 hrs or so.

[avidflyer]

My understanding is that anyone can work on their experimental aircraft and it does not require an AnP to sign off the work. If the aircraft is not in "annual", then the yearly conditional inspection has to be performed by an AnP (doesn't need to have the IA) If you have a repairman's certificate for that aircraft than you can do your own conditional inspection. The part about notifying the FAA if you make a major change (like an engine) is correct. I have had FAA inspections after I changed an engine in an Avid, without an AnP signoff on the work and the FAA inspector had no issue with that. If I am wrong, I would like to know the FAR that says I am. :-) Jim Chuk

PS If the plane was close to me, I would want it. Should be worth it in parts alone easy. I remember getting a quote from Skystar (Kitfox) for a model 4 wing kit and they wanted $4500 and I don't think that included the flaperons. That was almost 10 years ago. Glad I didn't order them, cause that's about the time they were going under, and I might have paid and not got the wings like others who got burned by them. Just incase some are not aware of what I'm referring to, Skystar was the owner of Kitfox before the current one who seems to fill all orders placed with him.

[SkyPirate]

something to consider..had he hung the new wings to the fuselage yet? easy way to check is see if the holes where drilled for the carry thru,..if they were,,check the paperwork to see if he had them swept forward to accommodate heavier engine,..if he did..before you cover wings the front wing connect holes might have to be modified

[Rodney]

Todd,

Years ago I found my Dad's Stinson in a barn in Arkansas. Dad owned the airplane in 1953-4. It had been wrecked, but I was able to buy it. I found that the logs had been stolen out of the airplane when it was owned by a guy in Florida. An AP had re-constituted the logs.

Said all that to say this: I got on the FAA website and using the N number of the airplane found that I could order a CD that had all of the previous logs and data, all the way back to 1946 when the plane was built. I think it was only $10.00 to get all that. I may be wrong on that number; but it wasn't very much.

It was neat, because I found the date Dad bought the airplane and also sold it.

Anyway, getting that info from the FAA may be of some value and help.

Regards
Rodney

[Paul Z]

Checking the FAA registration sight it says 61AC is Deregistered. See below link. http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=61AC

I do not know how difficult it would be to get it ReRegistered, but I would be checking it, befor I paid in full! I believe you need to get the manufacturer (Manufacturer Name CATCHOT ANGUS) involved to get the Airplane reregistered. Call the FAA and ask.

[HighWing]

My understanding is that anyone can work on their experimental aircraft and it does not require an AnP to sign off the work. If the aircraft is not in "annual", then the yearly conditional inspection has to be performed by an AnP (doesn't need to have the IA) If you have a repairman's certificate for that aircraft than you can do your own conditional inspection. The part about notifying the FAA if you make a major change (like an engine) is correct. I have had FAA inspections after I changed an engine in an Avid, without an AnP signoff on the work and the FAA inspector had no issue with that. If I am wrong, I would like to know the FAR that says I am. :-) Jim Chuk

I am with Jim 100% on this one with one exception. I know guys with a working relationship with an A&P who will thoroughly go over the check list, show the A&P what was done and then he will sign the log book. There is nothing in the recommended wording that states or implies that the person signing the log book actually did the inspection. The wording from my FAA examiner on a sticker he provided for me to use reads, "I certify that this aircraft has been inspected on (date) in accordance with the scope and detail of Appendix D to Part 43 and found to be in condition for safe operation. Checking online there is a downloadable Appendix D. It consists of a detailed generic check list with a signature line at the bottom requiring a name, signature and date. There is no line for a certificate number. That would be placed in the log book with the appropriate wording by the person authorized to "sign" off the inspection.

I would suspect that prudence would dictate how this is used in real life. I suspect there are one or two non builder owners of experimental aircraft that would be wise to go all the way with an A&P because they may be great pilots but not really up to speed on which end of a screwdriver is the working end. Then again consider your A&P wisely as some just may not be up to speed on the specific needs of your airplane.

[dalords]

From your questions that you asked I think you might be getting a few things confused. A airworthiness Cert last the for the life of the airplane until "surrendered, suspended or revoked" Registrations is a yearly thing that you do through the state. If you call the FAA they will mail you a disc with all the paperwork submitted to the FAA. This would hopefully include a copy of your airworthiness cert, operating limitations, original 8130 form, previous owners, ect. You are not building you are repairing even if you do a complete rebuild on the wings. Building only applies to the initial build, other than that the plane remains in an airworthy condition until any discrepancy makes it un-airworthy. Once that discrepancy is fixed it is back in an airworthy condition. under the experimental rule these repairs and or mods can be preformed by the owner. The catch to all this is, is that an A&P (unless you are the builder) has to do an annual conditional inspection. That is why it is good to keep him involved in the process (prior to covering anything). If you change the engine out possible a new 8130-6 may need to be filled out. this is because the plane was phase tested and a airworthiness cert was issued with a different engine. The rule for the engines is any increase in HP by 20% or change from type such as piston to turbine. I would talk to your FAA PMI from you local FAA FISDO to clarify. He should also be able to tell you what manual its in. I believe it in technical order 8130.2. After completion you will need to go back into phase 1 testing, which require a minimum of 5 HR of test flight testing stall speed, takeoff speed ect. If you have the original log books it should have all the original info about this in it. A simple logbook entry "Removed engine ____ serial number___ and installed engine____ serial number ___ Aircraft in Phase 1operations" needs to be made. After testing the person who test flew the plane will make a logbook entry " I certify that the prescribed test hours have been completed and the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous operating characteristics or design feature and is safe for operation. Test flight completed under the following conditions: Max operation weight____, Max airspeed___, Max stall speed____. Aircraft in Phase 2 operations" You will need to work with your local FAA PMI to define your test area and to write your new operation limitations to define this test area. Sounds a lot more complex than it really is. I just got done doing this. It really was as simple as a Phone call to the FAA and a letter stating my test area and a new 8130-6. He generated me a new operating limitations sheet and off I went. I also made some major mods to our model 2. Installed Grove spring gear, model 4 nose gear, increased the vertical and rudder to the model 4 dimensions, installed a Rotax 912 and increased our gross weight to 1100 pound. All only requiring a logbook entry (I am also an A&P). Hope this info helps. Sounds like you got a great deal. If I were you I would take it.

[dalords]

P.S You will probably need to fill out a new form 8050-1 for aircraft registration. For some reason you N number was cancelled. You may or may not get the same number back. The Fee is usually $5.00. There again your local FAA PMI should be able to quickly get you there.

[jrevens]

... Registrations is a yearly thing that you do through the state...

The N number may have been lost eventually because the aircraft registration wasn't renewed. All aircraft in the U.S. have to now have their FAA registration renewed every 3 years.