New kitfox speedster builder, Southwest Missouri

[bbs428]

Hey guys,

Retired Navy brownshoe here. :)
Been lurking for the last 3 weeks reading all the previous posts...150 pages plus photo albums, saving pic's, pearls of wisdom, etc. in my kitfox folder.
I really enjoyed all of your threads posted, problems you all worked through and sorted while building. Lot's of info!
My hope is to meet like minded pilots, contribute to the forum in a meaningful way, have a lot of fun and most of all, to be a friend to those I meet, who enjoy flying as much as I do.

About me... just a civilian now, flying rc planes. Back in the day I worked on S3-A/B lockheed aircraft electronics as an AT in the U.S. Navy. Made chief, got out and started a business installing yacht electronics. In my spare time I restored a few 1967-1969 Ford big block mustangs for fun. After a bit we moved back to the Ozarks in Missouri where my wife (Diane) and I currently live.

Now, about the kitfox!! - a price has been agreed to and I pick up a 1994 classic IV speedster in a few weeks! \o/ oh boy!
Fuselage is powder coat dark blue. Avionics panel incomplete but looks great, new steam type gauges. I might update the magellan gps while I'm at it. ;)
Has the all windscreens, doors, grove gear, tires, disk brakes and all the speedster goodies. Also included is a Lycoming O-235 motor mount and a A65 continental engine. :confused:
Does NOT have the firewall fwd kit, firewall, prop, tools or cowl. I'll sell the A65 and the old fuel tanks. We will order new wing and header tanks and look for a good used or new 912uls.
Haven't decided on clipping the wings and go full speedster, go full STOL or combo of both yet. Got plenty of time to sort it out. The owner and I will start formal inventory next week. So far she is very complete and the workmanship is top notch.

BUT - I had to make a deal with the she-devil herself (the wife) for the funds. Looks like she will get that bathroom remodel and vacation after all. :rolleyes:

LOL -but seriously, She's a great gal and is excited for me. Me? I'm really, really excited to be able, once again, to have an opportunity to realize a dream, one that that almost faded away, one that began in the mid 1980's when I received my ppl and flew spam cans and ultra lights with the lads in EAA ch.14 in San Diego, dreaming of the day I would build my own Kitfox.
Wow! :D

Brett

[GWright6970]

Brett,
Congratulations on the new project!! Looks like you did well.

Welcome to the team.... great bunch of folks here!

Cheers,
Grover (Ex-Army guy)

[DesertFox4]

The model 4 is a great aircraft.
You'll love it's flight characteristics no matter if you go "full" Speedster (short wings) or full length wings. I've flown both many times. With either the 80 hp 912 ul or the 100 hp uls you will have great performance with a very respectable load carrying capacity.

Ordering the new wing fuel tanks and an aluminum header tank is a good idea and will make it more reliable. The Grove gear is a plus also.


Enjoy the forums and thank you for your service in the Navy.

[cap01]

welcome aboard chief . not sure i under the classic speedster thing . either its a classic or a speedster . if its a speedster the wings are already shorter . my IV 1050 has long wings and my friends speedsters wings are one bay shorter each side . a speedster should perform pretty well with a uls engine , they go really good with the ul as it is .
good idea , installing the new production tanks . couldn't tell from the pics if the wings were built for the big tanks or small tanks . i had two small tanks in my wings which just isn't enough gas . replaced both with the new 13 gal tanks .
there are a bunch of guys that are building or flying model IIIs and IVs that hang out here that are willing to help when a question comes up .
brown shoe , hadn't heard that in a while . did my navy time . got out a AE2 AC.
never had to go on a boat, thank goodness . did acquire 1700+ hours in the nose of a p2v.

[bbs428]

Thanks for the warm welcome all. It's appreciated.

Enjoy the forums and thank you for your service in the Navy.
np Desertfox4. It was my pleasure.

not sure i under the classic speedster thing . either its a classic or a speedster . if its a speedster the wings are already shorter

Hey cap01, thanks for the welcome aboard! You were an AE - good on you mate. Lol - yea the shoe color is a term of endearment my surface navy mates and us aviator types give each other. Purely out of respect you see... :rolleyes: I'll spare you all of the many innuendos involved here. All in good fun. :D

My wings as of now, are full length. I have all the speedster stuff in the kit. Maybe it was ordered as a classic with speedster mods? It's beyond my noob understanding at atm.
The fine fellow I purchased the kit from ( also retired navy) showed me the wings, and they are untouched and are still full span (32 ft)
The wings can have the two larger, 13gal fuel tanks.

Here are few more pic's of when he received the kit... Did everyone receive their kit with pre-built wings? Or was this a quickbuild option?

Brett

[t j]

I purchased my Classic 4 kit in 1994. The prebuilt...Quick build...wings were an option. $1095 labor only.

The speedster wings are built full length and cut outboard of the number 9 rib after the ribs are installed. It is necessary to do it that way to get the proper twist in the wing.

[vetdrem]

Welcome aboard, I too am retired Navy. 21 years, Master Chief Machinist Mate (Submarines).

I may be interested in the A-65 when the dust settles. I also have a '41 Taylorcraft with the A-65 and I have been thinking about overhauling a different one to have it ready for when this one wears out.

When you are ready to unload it, let me know.

Louie

[Geowitz]

In addition to what everyone else has said. You may be able to modify yours to be speedster length by just cutting off the last bay and relocating the end rib bracing(keeps structural integrity for fabric shrinking.)... Or you could make removable wing extensions. Double check this, but I believe the spar insert location and length is the same for both wing types. The only difference is a minor adjustment in where the strut attachment is located for a lower dihedral. I have the speedster length and I find they are only for looks. I am a firm believer that the decrease in wing area decreases my lift to where the increased angle of attack needed to hold level flight creates more drag than longer wings of higher lift would. You will take of shorter and fly faster with the longer wing in my opinion.

Attached a pic of my speedster wing. Lots of build pics in my albums.

[bbs428]

The prebuilt...Quick build...wings were an option. $1095 labor only.

The speedster wings are built full length and cut outboard of the number 9 rib after the ribs are installed. It is necessary to do it that way to get the proper twist in the wing.

Ty on the clarification tj

Thanks for the info Geowitz. I'm really torn at cutting a perfectly good wing. I'll have to really think on it. Most of my flying is just for fun and the STOL is more important than the speed. However I like the looks and roll rate of the shorter wing. With the 912uls it would be a load of fun! My daughter lives out in San Diego so I can see some flights to visit her. Speed would be good... :D

Hey vetdrem, ty for the welcome aboard.

I'll have to go over the A65 more closely to see what shape it's in. To be honest I don't know anything about this type of engine. If it was a ford fe v8 that would be different. :)
I do know the mags, oil tank, carb and intake are NOT included. When it ran last is anybodies guess. Maybe the owner will produce some engine logs, maybe not. We mostly talked about the kitfox. I did see the engine on an engine stand and it looked good but I have no interest in finding the missing parts and "building" it to sell as a running engine. As of now, it will be sold as is for core value.
You tell me if it would be worth it to track down the parts and get it running? I just don't know.

Shoot me a pm if your still interested. Maybe with your knowledge of the motor we can figure out if it's worth your time and effort.
I can do some precise measurements when it's in my possession to find out if the core is worth anything...or if it's a boat anchor.

Brett

[DesertFox4]

Brett- for all around ease of construction and the best performance at all altitudes, the long wings make the most sense. With the 100 hp Rotax and right prop you will see cruise speeds in the 120 mph range on 5.7 gal. of fuel per hour. You'll retain your cruise speeds better at higher altitudes from my experience with the long wings. Not a large difference but some.
As far as roll rate, you will find you have all the roll rate you can ever use with the long wings.

Best of luck with your build. If you get stuck on anything just post your questions and someone will be by with help soon.

[Geowitz]

Brett - What desertfox4 said....

I'm not sure you caught my explanation about the speed issue. I was saying go with the long wings for STOL AND speed. And as far as the roll rate, it still ain't no cessna with the long wing. Good luck!

[HighWing]

(snip)The only difference is a minor adjustment in where the strut attachment is located for a lower dihedral. (snip)

A note on dihedral. When I started building in 1993, I debated cutting the wings and during the wing rigging, I contacted the factory and asked about the importance on the dihedral as on the Speedster (flatter) vs. on the standard Model IV. I was told there was no difference functionally. I mention this because my long time best kitfox buddy always complained that his Model IV looked like a landing pigeon. My current Model IV's dihedral was set by the guy that started the kit and I wish it was flatter for looks. A year or two old article in Sport Pilot bore this out as it mentioned that dihedral is important aerodynamically in low wing designs, but not so much in high wing designs. The reason I mention this, is you can either use the flatter Speedster dihedral as in that section of the manual or the more pigeon like :) as on the regular Model IV.

Welcome to the group. I think you have found a treasure. I put all the speedster mods on my 1993 Model IV except the clipped wings and wheel pants.

[Danzer1]

Brett,

Congratulations on the Fox!

Just as a point of reference, in case you haven't seen it, Service letter 27A speeds reduced further from Service Letter 27:

http://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/support/service_letters/sl27a.htm

The 1200 Vno is 95, the Speedster is 108 and states: "Maximum structural cruising speed is the speed that should not be exceeded except in smooth air, and then only with caution. It is indicated at the junction of the green and yellow arcs."


you will see cruise speeds in the 120 mph range

"caution" obviously subject to interpretation!

[bbs428]

Thanks for all the input guys!

I really appreciate all your insights a lot.
So far it makes more sense to keep the wings long, employ all the other speedster mods.
Wheel pants can be added or removed as needed. Seems to me they will get beat up pretty good on unimproved landing sites. My buddies hay field comes to mind... :)

Danzer1- The 1200 Vno is 95, the Speedster is 108 and states: "Maximum structural cruising speed is the speed that should not be exceeded except in smooth air, and then only with caution. It is indicated at the junction of the green and yellow arcs."

Noted - TY

HighWing - I agree. My thoughts are to employ the speedster dihedral.

DesertFox4 - Great info on the roll rate and the best performance at all altitudes. Just what I needed. Much obliged.

Brett

[cubtractor]

HOLY COW! Another Kitfox in my backyard and I didn't even know about it. Congrats Brett. We really need to get in touch. I live just west of the airport and keep my Kitfox at JLN. Shoot me an email and we'll get in touch.

mikeeeb@gmail.com

[HighWing]

Brett,

Congratulations on the Fox!

Just as a point of reference, in case you haven't seen it, Service letter 27A speeds reduced further from Service Letter 27:

http://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/support/service_letters/sl27a.htm

The 1200 Vno is 95, the Speedster is 108 and states: "Maximum structural cruising speed is the speed that should not be exceeded except in smooth air, and then only with caution. It is indicated at the junction of the green and yellow arcs."



"caution" obviously subject to interpretation!

I guess the interpretation is mostly in the heads of the guys who have flown these early models for 20 years or more without any reported inflight structural failures. Keep in mind that the Service Letter in question was issued within a couple of years of the introduction of the IV-1200. Now with 20 years of fleet testing - My interpretation - very precautionary to be sure, but valid today? Not so sure to absolutely not. Then again, if you are really being bounced around in an airplane with light wing loading, you won't need a book or a letter to tell you to slow down.

[bbs428]

Heja cubtractor, Small world eh?

I'm right down the road, between Webb City and Alba.
When the weather turns a bit warmer we gotta burn some holes in the sky.
I'll do my part and fire up the burn pile outback... :D

Email on the way.

[bbs428]

"if you are really being bounced around in an airplane with light wing loading, you won't need a book or a letter to tell you to slow down."

Thanks HighWing, good point.

[Danzer1]

I guess the interpretation is mostly in the heads of the guys who have flown these early models for 20 years or more without any reported inflight structural failures. Keep in mind that the Service Letter in question was issued within a couple of years of the introduction of the IV-1200. Now with 20 years of fleet testing - My interpretation - very precautionary to be sure, but valid today? Not so sure to absolutely not.

That may be Lowell, but everyone has a different tolerance and threshold for risk. Part of risk management is assessing ALL of the data available - not just yours and DF4's opinions - to make an informed decision based on that individuals risk tolerance and abilities.

[bbs428]

Talked to John McBean today.
He's shipping me two new wing fuel tank kits and a new aluminum header tank kit.

John sure was a pleasure to do business with.
Stayed on the phone with me longer than he should have tbo and even talked Classic ford mustangs for a bit. (he's a ford guy to) ;)
He asked me some questions on my plane and what tools I might need. So I ordered the ones I did not have.
We talked about what kind of flying I have done and expect to do in the Kitfox. Talked a bit more on what I should and should not do build wise. After business was done we had a few laughs and said our goodbyes.

I shouldn't feel so good spending this kind of money... but I can tell you I felt like he really cared about his product and how to take care of me - his customer.

:D:D:D:D

[Wheels]

That won't be the last time you talk to the Mcbeans and feel (rightly) that they care about the family of Kitfoxers. They are the only people I know who can uncook bacon. I know because when I THOUGHT MY BACON WAS COOKED, THEY FIXED IT!

[Gawilkie]

Welcome Brett glad to have another Kitfoxer in the area. I'm in Rogersville about an hour away. Been building mine now for about two years now and starting to close in on the finish. Mine is a five/seven five kit with a seven firewall forward 912uls and 7elevator. If your in the neighborhood stop in have a cup of coffee and check it out.

Welcome
George

[bbs428]

Heya George,

Thanks for the warm welcome and the invite! It has been a very positive experience to be here and meet all of you in the Kitfox community.
My #2 daughter lives in Rogers so we know the area a bit.
Shoot me a pm with and email or tel # and I'll be in touch. Would love some hot coffee and see all the work you have done!!

Brett

[cubtractor]

If I can stop flying for a living long enough, maybe I'll load up Brett in my Fox and meet up with SkyPirate and we'll fly down and check out the progress George.

[SkyPirate]

you got it Mike ..just let me know when :) welcome aboard Brett..we are going to have to have a squadron briefing here in MO soon,..maybe George and I could fly up and meet you 2 at Kingsley as well :)
PS keep the long wing Brett ..you will be happy and still make carrier landing approaches :)

[SkyPirate]

Brett I'm curios ..did you get your kit from a guy also retired navy Neosho area , he was on here for awhile then slipped off I think his handle kn6ii, Pete

[bbs428]

Yup. He must be the one.

Thanks for the welcome aboard SkyPirate.
You and many others, including John McBean say to keep the long wing.

Looking forward to the brief. ;)

[bbs428]

Welcome Brett glad to have another Kitfoxer in the area. I'm in Rogersville........
George

Hey George, Got my wires crossed. I thought you were in Rogers, AR. LOL.

I've driven through Rogersville on U.S. 60 more than a few times.