Expectations of Kitfox

[highball]

Hi all:

I am a low time private pilot that just got back into it after some years off.
I joined a club that I enjoy, however, I would really like to own something. I would say it'll be a two year process due to funds, job changes etc.

In any case I want something rugged that I can take to fields and grass strips as well as pavement with two people and some gear. I'd want to do some cross country flying but in no hurry. It's really not meant to travel but to enjoy getting there.

I had been thinking in the direction of a 172 or tri pacer, but I'm wondering if LSA has an advantage given what I'm looking for. I hear stories of what parts cost (horrifying) and I know Avgas is only going up especially when the 100LL replacement gets here. And I hear many A&P's are very expensive especially if they are light on work. So its a pricey hobby and I know that it will be no matter what.

But I can use my hands and am not afraid of the build aspect other than the patience it will take, and if I were to build a kitfox it seems like it would do a lot of what I'm asking. I could do most of my own work and burn cheaper gas. And I could stay in the club if I wanted to carry four people or just had a need for a 172 or Archer.

So am I thinking in a rational direction. Can I expect to carry 450 pounds of people and some bags safe and comfortable at 110 or 120 mph on 5 or 6 gph. And not have to suffer many of the crippling maintenance costs. What I'm seeing so far says yes. Have any of you built and in light sport for some of the same reasons. Are people other than those suffering from the medical hurdle moving in this direction.

Are my thoughts and questions clear.

[n85ae]

Pretty much answered all of your own questions about Kitfox's, yes to all of
the above.

Anything else?

Jeff

N85AE Series-5 Kitfox/Continental IO-240B

[jiott]

The SS7 Kitfox is all the things you want it to be, but some honesty about load capacity has to be considered. At 1320 lbs gross for Light Sport you subtract about 800 for empty weight, leaving 520 for usable load. If you want to carry two people at 450, that only leaves 70 lbs for fuel and gear. You will only be able to carry 1/2 tank of fuel and no baggage. This is the downside of light sport.

[Wheels]

I fly a model four with 80 horses. I have about 400 hours in it and its a great little flyer for my farm and me and and the misses. Were pretty small at 165 and 100 ish for the lady. I'm only 5'6 and she barely makes 5 feet. So, we go full tanks, full bags and make our takeoff in 450 to 600 feet from a 1600 foot runway no obstacles. Our mountain ranch is in the Clark Fork Valley and we regularly fly 100 or more miles in a commute to Spokane or a 30 mile trip to the local wall mart in Sand Point. We can carry 40 lbs of groceries in the plane and if it were a series seven we would feel privileged. the Kitfox is your plane.

[Av8r_Sed]

The only part of your equation you might want to reconsider is that you can, generally, buy a flying Kitfox for less than you'd invest if you build your own. You can still perform your own maintenance although how you go about it varies depending on its certification category (EAB, ELSA, SLSA). You may need an A&P mechanic to sign off your work though.

Build if you enjoy building and want to get the exact configuration that suits you. You just won't save money going that route and it will take some time.

[Esser]

You sound like me a few years ago. The Kitfox SS7 does everything you want. If you can get a medical I recommend staying away from the LSA as it limits your weight to 1320lbs vs 1550lbs. That's an extra 230lbs of bags and fuel.

If you buy a built one, you will save money but they are hard to find...

A model 5 or 6 would fit your role nicely too

[highball]

Thanks for the replies...sounds encouraging.

I'm hoping that resale is good (just in case) so that also makes me hope the price difference between building and buying isn't too big. I can see what you mean by how tempting something like this is...

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/aircraft/Single+Engine+Piston/2001/Kit+Fox/Vixen/1758278.html

But I can't resist the satisfaction of building my own. It might also help me spread the cost over time. I know there would be days I'd curse the decision when patience runs thin. But it has to be absolutely great to fly your own plane.

Also, it's my understanding that it should registered for 1,550 lb gross. I know little about that process, but apparently the builder chooses the gross weight. That makes sense to me especially because I already have the license.

It just seems like the expense is more legitimate with this idea. I know I could go get a tri-pacer pretty cheap, but even if it's in good shape to start I think owners get cheated by almost everyone involved at this point to fly and maintain a certified plane. A guy at my club showed me a flap position sender for his 182 - super simple rheostat. $1000 used.

Anyway. This all sounds very good.

And is the Rotax the only way to go. They seem pricey, but I'd want 100hp. There is a Bushking VW that if is as advertised looks nice. Not really cheap but simple and easy to maintain. Way ahead of myself I know, but the part of the equation that worries me the most.

[KFfan]

@ highball

Keep in mind opinions are like as*******, everyone has one, I think. They, however, should be considered. I just went through the process you are encountering. I looked ALL summer for an airplane that fit my needs and desires. I am satisfied with my purchase and am pretty much where I expected to be. No matter what you finally do, make sure it is what fits for YOU. I am not detracting from anything/information presented on this forum. I have learned a great deal from everyone here!! Gather all of the insight offered. It seems in the end, there are many trade-offs. Just follow your head and heart and you should not have any buyers remorse.
Happy Hunting...

[Esser]

Thanks for the replies...sounds encouraging.

And is the Rotax the only way to go. They seem pricey, but I'd want 100hp. There is a Bushking VW that if is as advertised looks nice. Not really cheap but simple and easy to maintain. Way ahead of myself I know, but the part of the equation that worries me the most.

You can't get a kit delivered to your door for the price of that kitfox. Buy it and make it yours.

Rotax are expensive but you can get used ones for a decent price if you keep your eyes open.

[avidflyer]

Did anyone else notice the usefull load on the Kitfox in the trade a plane link? GW 1550, usefull load 530. Wow, that is a heavy kitfox. Wonder what it would have weighed with a 912 Rotax? Jim Chuk

[Esser]

0-235 is a heavy engine. You could knock off 100# by taking that out and putting a rotax in. Looks like there is about 40lbs of leather in the cockpit and that prop probably weighs over 40lbs too since its metal.

[WWhunter]

I own both Experimental and certified aircraft and from my personal experience there is not a whole lot of difference in owning them as far as repairs/parts are concerned. I am of the mindset that it is my a$$ up there in the air and I am not going to skimp a few bucks on my life.

For what a guy can buy a 172 or Tripacer these days it doesn't make monetary sense to build your own unless you think you will save a bunch of money. You won't! Personally I like the 172 much better than the Tripacer. Either of these planes can be purchased for $20-30K, this is what a typical kit will cost you without an engine, interior,or instruments. A lot of older certified planes can be flown on auto fuel as long as non-oxygenated fuel is available in your area. The only downside is having to find a hangar or tie down spot verses being able to fold the wings and tow the Kitfox home.

There are also a lot of flying kitplanes out there in the same price range if that is what you are wanting. I will mention that a kitplane is a different aircraft in regards to how it was built. No two are alike so you are basically having to be the test pilot/mechanic.

Best suggestion I would make would be to find a cheap 172/tripacer/Champ, etc. and fly it. This will keep the flying 'bug' stimulated and will allow you to browse the market for a used or uncompleted kit that you can also work on. I am doing just exactly this right now. I have a flying plane and just purchased an uncompleted kit I hope to work on and finsh over the winter. I enjoy working on things and this will also allow me to do the condition inspections on the Kitfox which will save some money.

Good Luck!!!

[jiott]

I think you may be underestimating the savings by doing your own work, repairs, condition inspections when you build your own kit. My flying buddy who owns a certified super cub spends multple thousands each year more than I do on his airplane maintenance/annuals. And yes he tries to keep the costs down by working with the AP mechanic and doing all the grunt work. Then when he wants to add a gizmo like a fuel flow sensor it costs him 10 times what it would cost me. Just sayin.

[WWhunter]

Jim Ott,
You are probably correct but let me state also that I save a considerable amount of money on my certified plane by doing nearly everything myself. I have an AI that knows me well enough that he allows me to do the work and then he will thoroughly check my work and sign it off. I guess my situation is different than that of most owners and it does save me a considerable amount. While my situation is rare, there are mechanics out there that will work with you, you just need to seek them out, and befriend them.
I have not paid more than $150 for an annual on my 172 is the past 8-10 years.

I am also refering to just basic aviating, no need for high dollar gadgets for me since I enjoy looking out the window and flying VFR with the minimal instrumentation. I had a bunch of items removed from my 172 to reduce weight. Items I had not used since I was first getting my license.

I have been keeping record from my expenditures on my planes since day one. The 172 was my first plane purchase in 1987 and I have bought and sold several since then and the difference between the various aircraft is not all that much. Actually, I still own that very same 172! Everytime I think of selling or upgrading I realize it is a safe, reliable, inexpensive plane that does 90% of what I need. For those other needs I have the RANS S7 and now the Ktfox.

[highball]

One things for sure. If I buy a kit plane it will be in a KIT form. I border on insanity when it comes to whether something is in perfect operating condition or not. From the coffeemaker to the car and then the plane. That's what I always worry about on commercial flights. Not thunderstorms, turbulence or any of that. I worry about the maintenance crew.

Anyway. I would have to do it myself to avoid the work and consequence of the "good enough" guy that has been mentioned.

That goes along with my interest in the first place. I know maintenance is everything, but the years have to be taking a toll that can't be avoided on older planes. I know it's arrogant to think I can do as well as cessna or piper, but take the development of the kit, modern materials and 40 to 60 years into consideration and I wonder you could have something as good that you know inside out and can maintain on your own properly. Don't get me wrong I am in no way looking to scrimp.

I suppose the goal is not to get raped just because I happen to like a sport/hobby (whatever it is) that is not common enough to benefit from the normal market forces out there.

WWHunter seems to be the first to stray from the idea that the cost spread is big between experimental and certified. I don't doubt him, but my guess is that he's very lucky. That mechanic is key. And WW must be a big part too in that he has the guys trust and can do the work properly.

I just don't know. Please all forgive my rambling and looking for hand holding. It's a hard decision. I am trying to thoroughly hash this out early so I can set a goal and push right at it.

If I had the money I'd do both, but unless I hit it big my eggs are gonna be in one basket for a while. And I've made the buy high and sell low mistake and I hate it and don't want to do it with something this big.

[jiott]

Highball, you sound just like the kind of guy to build a kit. And you won't find a better engineered kit than Kitfox, or a better and more clear builder manual, or better factory people to work with, or a more capable STOL/x-country airplane, or more economical flying, or a better looking airplane, or -------- it goes on.

[AirFox]

I Second Jim! Awesome Factory Support! Been flying mine for 7 months now and think it is worth every penny.

Scott

[Danzer1]

If you're intent on building and flying, you could pick up a 20k or so Luscombe and fly it while you are building and sell it when you are done or just stay in the flying club until you are sure(er) of your route.

If you haven't already; join EAA and a local chapter and go out and meet some builders to get better feel of the commitment. Also, I strongly encourage flying in type - any model you might be considering. Your perception is the one that counts - not anyone elses.

Personally, I'd fly a while longer - so your confident of your abilities/goals/mission and then reassess and decide.

You'd be surprised how many think one thing at the outset and then reality sets in and the goal ends up being much different.

Greg

[WWhunter]

highball,
Yes, I am very lucky! I sometimes forget that fact when I respond to posts such as yours. I was raised on a farm, started working in a speed shop several years before I could legally drive. Have rebuilt more engines than I can remember, completed a ground up restoration of an oddball car (1969 Lotus Europa) and have worked on airplanes, cars, Harley's, etc. for over 40 years. I have owned airplanes and been flying for close to 30 years. I think I am probably a lot like you in the case of not doing things half-a##ed. Sometimes I am way to picky and then it takes many times longer to complete a task.

I cleared woods and field on my property and have an 1800' landing strip along with my own hangar where I live. I don't mean to post this as a brag, just a basis to explain how I can afford what I have and how I am able to own it without the additional costs most people have to contend with. So again, yes, I am lucky.

Your further explaination of what you want etc. makes me think I should delete my posts since in hindsight what most of the other guys have stated fits you better. Maybe I am misunderstanding you but it sounds like you may be keeping whatever you get at your home. If you can keep and fly an airplane from your own property you can save a LOT of money. No driving to the airport to fly, hangar fees, and all the other little things do count up if you aren't based at home.

I doubt a person can buy a new kit, build it, and sell it without losing money. Your time will be free but the total sum of the parts will rarely be recouped unless you build something highly desired. The Kitfox doesn't need a lot in the way of special tools so not a lot investment there. Start with a new kit with a couple of options, including the FWF will run you $30K +/-. Then add a new Rotax with prop that will lighten your wallet by another $25K and the total now is $55K and you still need radios, lights, some instruments, pholstery, etc, etc. You are now over $60K. All this, and unless you are a good painter, you need to lighten that wallet some more with a paint job.

I think a guy would be doing very good if he were able to build a flying plane (all new) for much under $60-65K. I sure don't want to be the 'ba humbug' guy on here but I have done enough of this stuff to know what things really cost when it is all said and done...not what you tell your wife. ;) I am just trying to be totally honest and let you know what I have experienced.

Of course if a guy scrounges and can find a used engine and prop you can whittle that figure down many thousand dollars.

I still suggest you browse Barnstorers, this site, and any other aviation classified place for an uncompleted kit. The plane market is still quite depressed at the moment and there are some very good deals out there. The Kitfox IV I just acquire was purchased from a 'for sale' ad on this site. I feel I got it for a fair price and wouldn't say I 'stole it' but the seller and I both ended up happy. Sure, I will have to invest more money in it but I should have a decent flying Kitfox for less than the cost of a new kit.

Dang, I just couldn't stop rambling...:)

Oh, one more thing...I agree with what Danzer says! A persons needs and desires can sure change during a build. I started out wanting/needing a bush plane capable of going on floats since I live in lake country. Now that the kids are all grown and spread across this country I need a go-fast/cross country traveling machine.