How much to fix

[PropellerHead]

N824KF has been languishing in my garage for four years now. I’ve decided to get her flying again and then sell here. What’s baking my noodle now is I don’t know how much to fix. The event that grounded her four years ago was wind related. A tie down came loose, one wing lifted and the droop tip on the other side got crunched. Thinking that I was paying for a shortcut, I bought new tips not understanding that they would not be ‘bolt on’ replacements. What I need to do now is complete the wingtip install and then replace all the rubber fuel lines which are now clogged with stale fuel.

Here’s my question. There are a number of minor issues with this plane that I had intended on addressing. Now that I’m selling her, would it be worth bothering with? Here’s a short list of the things that bug me the most:

-A number of firewall penetrations that are not properly sealed.
-No drip trays on the carbs.
-Some generally non aviation grade wiring. For instance, none of the wire terminals have heat shrink.
-The inboard side of both ailerons have some minor damage from poor wing folding procedure.

I guess it boils down to how picky the average potential buyer is likely to be and whether or not these kinds of things are typical with used experimental airplanes.

Thanks

[kitfox5v]

Picture say a thousand words.;)

[PropellerHead]

Good point. Will post some tonight.

[WWhunter]

Not the best news you want to hear but the airplane market right now is definitely not in the sellers corner! Only saying this to let you have some food for thought in regards to repairing/fixing the items you mention. Will the time and money you will invest be worth your effort? Maybe it is just my preception but I seem to be seeing a lot of guys waiting, in hope the DL medical will pass and they can buy a 172, Cherokee, or similar plane that they can fly that will be of better overall use than our little two seat backyard flivvers. In my opinion, if this does pass, we will see the value of our small LSA type planes decrease in value even more. Heck, I have even been looking at Cessna 180 and 182's due to the down market. I have found early models of each of these for similar prices to what is asked for newer model KFs!! I figure the prices on these will rise again if the propsal passes.

I am currently working on a flying plane that is actually in much better condition than you desribe yours as being. I have invested countless hours and a lot of money into this 'needs a little work' plane. Unless your time is of little value you may be better off taking a loss and selling it as is.
Fuel line, fuel tanks(if they are old they might need replacing), fabric/wing repairs, carb rebuild, etc. count up to quite a bit of money very fast.

I am also currently looking at another project that needs all of what I just mentioned in the previous paragraphs. I am still torn over whether I should get it or not, but the more I have researched what it will take to get it flying, the more I am starting to realize I will most likely be better off buying a plane that is flying. I have seen decent flying KF's selling for under $25K. I have even found a couple for $20K.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news (maybe I am having a bad day) and being so negative. Just saying how I am currently experiencing things.

Even though I pi$$ and moan about all this, I still have to say I enjoy working on things. So if you have the time and enjoy doing the work, by all mean dive in and fix it. Might even decide after you get it fixed that you are crazy for wanting to sell it. See, I can be positive too. :)


Good Luck in whatever you decide.

PS. you mentioned the wing tip damage, where the spars ever checked for damage? Might have some hidden damage you don't even know about.

[beeryboats]

Just my two cents, but I see the other side of the story. I bought my KF IV about a year ago after it sat for 10 years. I had wanted a flying plane, not a project. I had just sold a "project" that I had been dragging around the country for 24 years so I could buy a flying plane. But due to the lack of decent looking Kitfoxes in my area I made a bid on this project that was "not for sale". After asking him what he thought it was worth in its current condition, I make an offer that was bold enough to still be worth installing a new engine. Well, that made it "for sale" three days later!

Fast forward a year and I'm having the time of my life rebuilding this aircraft. I've learned so much from folks on the forum and the airplane has taught me a bunch too. My first estimate of changing a couple fuel lines and rebuild the engine has gone a little deeper than that, but not to the point of financial ruin. And it's fun. That's the best part.

So, you may start rebuilding it and not really want to sell. Or, keep an eye on what's available around you and price your project accordingly. A lot depends on the engine, which you didn't mention. I know my story may not mean much, but as P.T. Barnum said, "there's a sucker born every minute". You just need to find someone like me!

[WWhunter]

berryboats,
I totally agree. I was just trying to state both sides of the issue. In your defense, you must have gotten the plane for a super deal (as I stated, things are bad for sellers but good for buyers) in order for you to be able to purchase the plane, buy a new motor for it and still be ahead!!!!
The plane I mentioned I bought was very similar tp your purchase, as mine sat 11 years, untouched, Even though the plane and engine only had 140 hrs. TT, I have stuck enough in it that I could have nearly bought a new engine also. Like you, I enjoy working on them also but there gets a point where the working on them vs. flying becomes counter productive, hence my negativity. Including luxuries such as AkBushwheels I have put nearly $20K additionally into this plane. Its all those little things that can add up very quickly.

[mr bill]

Amen to that!

[kitfox5v]

Luis,
You used to live in Laurens SC. Is that correct?
Send me a PM with your ph.# and I'll call you. May be interested in your plane.
Eddie:)

[PropellerHead]

To be clear, I'm not considering selling as a 'project plane'. At a minimum, the airplane will be flying with thorough third party condition inspection. In fact, I already got the carbs rebuilt by Lockwood. It's more a question of going the extra mile to 'fix' things that I would want fixed if I were keeping it. The DL medical would actually help with my airplane since it has an IFA prop. Come to think of it, $25k is pretty close to what I paid so that's not terrible.

Some pics of what I'm talking about:

Behind panel showing automotive style terminals with no strain relief:

http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa456/wingnut3232/20141007_222441.jpg

Firewall showing unprotected penetrations. Also note the improvised compensation tube. A new one from Lockwood is $103! :

http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa456/wingnut3232/20141007_222226.jpg

So... am I being picky? Is the typical Kitfox buyer going to care that much about these kinds of things?

[WWhunter]

Me, personally, would not worry about fixing the wiring terminals. They could have been done better but I wouldn't hesitate to fly it like it is nor would I worry about asthetics. Your photo's show what I have seen as typical assembly. Sure, I have seen nicer and worse...MUCH worse!!! One of the last Kitfoxes I looked at was an absolute mess. There were huge blobs of solder and exposed wires all over the place behind the panel. I honestly have no idea how the plane was ever given a sign-off and AW certificate. Yours actually looks decent compared to all those I have looked at.

Could you post more pictures of the complete plane? I have been in the market for a year for the right deal/plane. I sold my Super Champ on floats and have been looking for a decent Kitfox ever since. Hate to have all that money stuck in the bank drawing 0.0000001% interest when I could be flying and spending money on gas. :)

[Dave S]

Propellerhead,

There is one item in the last photo which a person would be wise to correct for sure.

On the far right of your last photo, notice the ground leads attached to the bolt on the top of the strap supporting the ignition modules...the two leads coming from the ignition modules to provide a ground have a single point of failure.... (I am not sure what the other two leads are for which have the connectors).

If the strap suffers a fatigue break/crack anything grounded through this strap is no longer grounded and both modules quit working...this has happened and the occurences have been documented on this list.

The Rotax original configuration has the two module grounds affixed to the engine with separate screws.

I believe the reason for the strap, which I don't think is a Rotax part, was to accomodate the modified placement of parts including the manifolds/carbs on opposite sided of the engine.

Sincerely,

Dave S
KF 7 Trigear
912ULS Warp Drive
St Paul, mn

[PropellerHead]

Thanks for the tip Dave. Notice that the ignition module support right next to it is a slightly different color.. That's because that one already broke and I replaced the original aluminum with stainless. If it had been the one with the ground wires then I might have been another statistic! I was thinking about remounting the ignition module on the unused air box mount like on this airplane:

http://www.teamkitfox.com/Forums/picture.php?albumid=400&pictureid=4823

This whole experience has been so productive that I think I will post more pictures just to see what other things people notice. It could be like a community improvement project for my airplane :-)

[WWhunter]

I personally like that idea. Only thing I will add from my experience is to make sure all the lead wires are snuggly attached to preclude vibration.
I had the unlucky oppertunity of having a very rough running engine that was caused by the ignition modual wires not being tied down good and the wire itself broke within its shielding. Hard to diagnose and very frustrating.

[N981MS]

If the only goal is to sell; my answer to the original question would be to fix the minimum for safe flight.

I would expect a flying airplane to bring more money than a "project".

Anything extra you do is likely time and money spent without significant return.

Maxwell

[Wheels]

Im with maxwell. I bought my bird for about 25k an spent significant money on it over the past 4 years to bring it up to speed. Its now a nice looking bird and joy to fly, but If I didn't like working on it, it would be a project. today, its pretty pretty, and I'm a little smarter, older.

[PropellerHead]

Nice! Mine is still pretty too.. Just needs a little TLC which I'm anxious to provide. I'm really pumped now about getting to it. Picked up some Gates Barricade hose last night. Waiting now for some new firesleeve (old ones were rarry) and a number of other bits. Someone asked for pictures:

http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa456/wingnut3232/Airplane/DSCN0639.jpg

http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa456/wingnut3232/Airplane/scaled_6a56_800x600_a80042p1348685681orig.jpg

http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa456/wingnut3232/Airplane/scaled_fa6c_800x600_a80042p1369227780orig.jpg

http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa456/wingnut3232/Airplane/scaled_0b5b_800x600_a80042p2093708122orig.jpg

[Wheels]

Thats a nice bird! It won't take much to make it a seller. Cosmetically she looks as good as most of the fleet. The few things you need to address in your post will go quickly. Good luck.

[PropellerHead]

Thanks. I'm already kinda hoping she doesn't sell too fast :-). I promised my wife I'd trade her for a sailboat but we didn't talk about time frame. I've always wanted to fly to the Bahamas and now we're only 100 miles away from Grand Bahamas. Anyone want to come?