Question about training and insurance for new pilot

[gregsgt]

Hello, I've got some questions about the best approach to training in and owning a kitfox.

I'm starting to get pretty serious about looking for and buying a plane. I've got some time in a P210 when I was younger and started training in a 172. I've decided to train for a light sport certificate at this point in my life because right now I am only looking to fly for fun and light sport seems to be the most economical way to go for me. Unfortunately none of the flight schools around here have a light sport aircraft to train in so the only way I can get light sport certified is to get my own aircraft.

My end goal is to have a plane on amphibious floats and I've pretty much decided that what would work best for me is at least a series 5 due to having a little bit of cushion with the higher gross. From looking around at what is out there it seems like I can expect to spend upwards of $30k for one without floats. I'll also need one with a transponder and radio since I will be flying out of and through controlled airspace.

My concern is that being new pilot I'll essentially be uninsurable until I get some hours logged and I don't like the idea of self insuring a plane with a cost like that. Does anyone have some suggestions for insurance for a new pilot?

Would I be better off buying a more basic inexpensive plane like a series 2-4 with a 582 in it to start with and then transition to a series 5? I've seen some nicely equipped planes like that in the $10-$20k range.

I'm lucky enough to live close to Tom Parkhurst and he was nice enough to give me a demo flight in his kitfox iv lite squared so at least I've got someone within driving distance of me with experience in these that can help with training.

[jiott]

I was able to get insurance thru EAA (Falcon) for my brand new Kitfox Super Sport E/AB which covered the maiden flight and me as a brand new Sport Pilot with only about 120 hours. I trained with Stick & Rudder in Boise so nearly all those hours were in a Kitfox SS taildragger. I understand that after about 200 hours taildragger time insurance cost goes down significantly.

[N981MS]

Light Sport aircraft MUST have been originally certified at no more than 1320 pounds gross weight on wheels. There is some allowance for floats. I suspect (but am not certain) most Series 5s are more than that. You cannot reduce it to 1320 later and comply with Light Sport rules.

WARNING: if you are dead set on Light Sport, do not buy one until you see the original registration gross weight. I would not take somebody's "yeah, its a light sport".

Unfortunately, I think you will have a hard time finding insurance for you as a student. I think it can be done though.

If you don't have any medical reasons necessitating Light Sport I would recommend getting your private license. Then you can rent the local spam cans to learn. No sense in beating up your Kitfox. Insurance companies like private pilots better and you would have fewer limitations.

YMMV

[Paul Z]

Make sure it is registered as a ESLA or that the registration weight is under 1320 lbs. I had several owners trying to sell me their Kitfoxes as LSAs when in fact the were registered over the 1320 weight maximum. Ask to see the weight and balance. If it shows over 1320 lbs, 1321 to 1550lbs, it can not be flown as an LSA. There are some people out there that are just trying to sell their plane, and are not concerned with the legality.


Light Sport aircraft MUST have been originally certified at no more than 1320 pounds gross weight on wheels...

[wheelerg]

For what its worth, apples vs oranges....
In Canada I got insurance thru COPA via MAGNES ins company and I had 40 hours on a 172, I bought the plane and put liability on it and did my Ultralight licence with my own plane insured.
I realize its Canada but I would think you should be able to get ins and fly as low time trainee.

Good luck

[gregsgt]

Well I've got about 35 hours logged in a 172. Any time before that wasn't really for training so it wasn't logged but I basically grew up in the copilot seat of a P210.

I don't really have any medical reasons to necessitate light sport but I am on a medication for migraine headaches that will require a special issuance. Part of which will require a battery of expensive and time consuming tests that I am not sure I want to invest in at this point although my AME doesn't think it will be an issue. The medication has zero impact on me. I tried to go off it for obtaining a private certificate but the original issues I started taking it for flared up again. I am better off on it than without it.

Being that a Kitfox is the aircraft I would really like to fly it just made sense to me financially to go for light sport at this point and possibly use it as a stepping stone towards private in the future.

I understand the fact that if an aircraft is registered over 1320 that it can't be re-registered under the limit to comply with light sport rules.

The other factor is that really the only aircraft available around me is a 172 and it seems like if I even look at the thing it costs me $150 or so. Since I'm not looking to fly for travel or anything at this point the private certificate just doesn't make as much sense as light sport. The problem with that is that there are no light sport aircraft available in my area which would necessitate me buying one to train in. The problem with that is that I think insurance would be hard to obtain and I really don't want to self insure a $30k+ aircraft.

I'm sort-of leaning towards finding a relatively inexpensive Model 2-4 to train in, (hopefully not beat it up too bad), and sell it towards a Model 5+ once I am more insurable.

There are a couple really nice aircraft fairly close that are better oriented towards my end-goal but I'm just not comfortable at this point pulling the trigger to buy one until I'm comfortable with the insurance end of it. I'll have to start making some phone calls to see what I am up against.

I was just wondering if someone out there was in a similar situation and how they handled it.

[Paul Z]

Best recommendation is to go to Idaho, and get some hours at Stick & Rudder in a Kitfox. Almost every insurance company wants 10 hours in type.

[gregsgt]

Best recommendation is to go to Idaho, and get some hours at Stick & Rudder...

That's good advice. Interestingly enough Tom can do training here in his Model 4 lite squared. Would you recommend getting some hours in on one of these first before thinking about buying one?

I flew Tom's plane with him and thoroughly enjoyed it. It is much more fun to fly than the 172.

[SkyPirate]

If you can pass a physical, get the student certificate, train for 20 hrs in a 150, take a check ride in an LSA, if you want a sport pilot student certificate, any DPE or FSDO can issue one at no charge.
If you have doubts about the physical, do the sport or go see a DR that is not an FAA cert physician and get a physical first, and study the NO FLY list of medical reasons why you could not obtain a PPL or pass a physical.

My model 5 is registered 1320 gross LSA

[gregsgt]

I'm not concerned about passing the 3rd class medical. I just don't see the benefit if what I want to fly is an LSA anyway.

No 150s around here to train in but I have 35 hours in a 172 already. I just would have to switch training from private to sport.

There is just no LSA available around here to rent for a check ride.

[HighWing]

My model 5 is registered 1320 gross LSA

The talk of Sport Pilot and the 1320 lbs. Max. gross makes me wonder about the advisability of one of the later models vs. The earlier ones. My IV weighs 665a lbs giving a payload of 535 lbs. I don't recall a 5, 6 or 7 except Phil Lakers under 700 lbs. - many being way over that. Just a thought.

[gregsgt]

It's my understanding that with the later series it is basically a 1550 lb gross aircraft that is registered at 1320 to comply with the light sport rules. Even an 800 lb aircraft will still have about the same useful load as a model 4.

Not that I plan on doing it but it's probably not unheard of to fly a later model over the LSA registered gross since it was really designed for a 1550 gross. Legally is another story.

I just think it would be better to fly at the max LSA gross when in reality it is more than that than to fly a model 4 right at the max 1200 gross.

Does that logic make sense?

[SkyPirate]

The talk of Sport Pilot and the 1320 lbs. Max. gross makes me wonder about the advisability of one of the later models vs. The earlier ones. My IV weighs 665a lbs giving a payload of 535 lbs. I don't recall a 5, 6 or 7 except Phil Lakers under 700 lbs. - many being way over that. Just a thought.


mine weighs 725 and I could easily hit the 700 mark, but I like it the way it is, the builder of my 5 is also a mechanical engineer,..his goal was to build it light,,at 725 I have 595 left for fuel passenger etc

[SkyPirate]

my 5 fly's better the closer I get to Gross (1320 lbs) I like knowing the airframe is designed to handle more weight then it is registered for

something to consider..1550 x 6 = 9300 / 1320 = 7.04545...

[SkyPirate]

I'm not concerned about passing the 3rd class medical...

Greg..the advantage of getting a student license , you can train in anything 150,172,,trauma hawk etc,,then take a week end go up to Burlington VT,,there is a kitfox LSA based at the Burlington VT airport..he is training..and most likely rents his plane for flight tests,,if you call him..he must also know a DPE who will fly in an LSA ..the DPE might know of a trainer closer to you that is also flying LSA

[gregsgt]

I can train in anything without a student license. I just can't solo in one without it.

I have my student license now but I obtained it when I wasn't on this migraine medication. Now I can't legally fly anything solo other than sport without going through the special issuance fiasco. I was planning on just letting it expire in a couple months.

If at some point in the future I want to go private then the sport is a good stepping stone. At that point I can go through the special issuance but who knows, maybe by then this whole third class medical reform will have gone through.

I can almost buy an aircraft for the cost of the battery of tests the FAA requires just to tell them what my AME and I already know.

[SkyPirate]

ok then I would find someone close that owned a model 3/ 4/ 5 etc and see if you could try one on for size..and possibly a flight..once you taste the characteristics between the models..start shopping..you can take a sport flight test in your own plane..it does not have to be factory built..only if you plan on training other pilots in it..and even then there are ways to train in a non factory built plane..if that is a goal..


if you buy an LSA any CFI can sign you off for solo and written and flight exam

[Av8r3400]

I was on a special for migraine -actually cluster headache meds (now lapsed).

What drug are you on that is the concern? They didn't seem to have any issue with the meds I was on, prednisone, verapamil and injected imetrex. I just needed to see my neurologist annually and have him pen a letter stating I'm not dying.

(Knock on wood I've been remissed from the headaches for over two years, now hoping its permanent.)

[SkyPirate]

insurance,,as a student,,I'm not so sure it's that easy to obtain insurance unless you purchase the plane with a licensed pilot as a co owner,..there are different types of insurance ,,taxi and storage insurance which only covers you on the ground,,or while hangared..and full insurance which covers you in flight as well

[gregsgt]

ok then I would find someone close that owned a model 3/ 4/ 5 etc and see if you could try one on for size...

I met a great guy through this site who looks like he may be able to help with training and isn't too far away. I'm just wondering if I should be training in an aircraft I own versus someone else's ELSA that I can't solo without getting real creative.

I flew with him for a demo flight and loved it. The kind of flying you do in these planes is different and more fun than the 172.

[gregsgt]

insurance,,as a student,,I'm not so sure it's that easy to obtain insurance unless you purchase the plane with a licensed pilot as a co owner,..there are different types of insurance ,,taxi and storage insurance which only covers you on the ground,,or while hangared..and full insurance which covers you in flight as well

Ok well this begs another question. My dad has over a thousand hours but let his medical expire due to diabetes. That is when he sold the P210. His medical was never denied which makes him eligible to fly sport now as I understand the rules. Maybe the answer for insurance is to have him as a co owner? He'd love to get back in the sky.

[SkyPirate]

if he is not a CFI..but is willing to let you use his plane to get solo endorsement..you just need a drivers license and correct amount of time for solo and an endorsement, if the CFI is creative and only puts "kitfox" in the sign off instead of the model also..your covered ..the difference will be TD or Trike, you do need a Tail Wheel endorsement if it is a tail dragger

personally I'd have a hard time letting a student use my plane unless he gave me an escrow acct number with the replacement value of my plane in it....just in case

[SkyPirate]

if your dad is willing :) absolutely.. he might get the bug again as well..now that would be awesome for you..:) and him ,,Twin kitfox's? :)

[gregsgt]

if he is not a CFI..but is willing to let you use his plane to get solo endorsement....

That's the issue. I don't want to potentially bend someone else's plane.

Yes I do want a TD endorsement. Then someday float plane.

[gregsgt]

if your dad is willing :) absolutely.. he might get the bug again as well..now that would be awesome for you..:) and him ,,Twin kitfox's? :)

Well you never actually lose the bug as he has a basement overflowing with RC planes now.

I'm sure he'd be more than willing.

I'm 220 lbs and he is bigger than me so useful load starts to become a pretty big factor in these.

[SkyPirate]

the plane that is based in Burlington VT is a model 7 SS TD 912 uls

[SkyPirate]

if you find a model 5 or up 912 powered LSA I think you would be ok as far as weight goes..just might not be able to fill the tanks with gear on board also..a 912 UL has an awesome fuel burn rate..3.4 gph plus minus,,

[gregsgt]

the plane that is based in Burlington VT is a model 7 SS TD 912 uls

I'm going to look into that. I really want to fly in a newer model.

I really appreciate everyone's help.

[SkyPirate]

me at 210 and a friend at 250 .. 20 gal of fuel on board we are in the green and can cover some ground..

[SkyPirate]

I was up your way in May..flew from here MO to NC to NH and back to MO my plane model 5 912 UL TD the tail number has been changed since this photo was taken

[gregsgt]

Your setup looks like it is exactly what I want to ultimately end up with.

[Av8r3400]

I'm 220 lbs and he is bigger than me so useful load starts to become a pretty big factor in these.


In a Kitfox (with a 912), load is not the real issue. It's more about room in the cabin for two big people. Especially in a 1-4 model. The 5+ is wider and roomier for bigger passengers.

I would second the recommendation to take a vacation to Idaho and see Paul at Stick and Rudder. Get your tailwheel and transition with him and you'll be all set. You may already have, with your 35 hours of private dual, nearly enough training to get the Sport certificate.

[SkyPirate]

you will be happy with a set up like this,,,..basic panel

[SkyPirate]

what time he has has to be current with in the time frame allowed ..for sport if I remember right it's 2 hrs with CFI minimum for solo..TD endorsement time will be determined by CFI..not sure if there is a minimum for TD time

20 hours total required for sport.. no hood time..no night flight time,,if you want to fly in D airspace an endorsement is required by CFI or letter from D space tower
know this..even if its a 2 place LSA if the DPE will not fly in the plane with you..you will get a single place endorsement . he will observe you from the ground with radio contact..so make sure the DPE you use will fly with you in the LSA

[Wheels]

Airplanes ARE expensive. It doesn't matter what the plane is, they just cost time and money. They are also WORTH it to those of us who like to fly. I trained with a crooked little man who was a traveling salesman CFI in ("I teach you in your plane".) I soloed in a J-3 cub that a neighbor rented me while we flew our sport pilot course. After grad I bought a Kitfox model IV for 25k and flew it for 250 hours. Then I put about 10k into it and flew for another 2oo hours. If you buy a cheap plane You WILL become a mechanic or you will be staring at a plane you can't fly. There are very limited resources for hiring Rotax certified mechanics in your area. Many A&Ps simply don't know what a Rotax is. Those repair facilities that do have a Rotax mechanic will charge you. duh. So you will learn how to do basic maintenance at the least.
The taildragger is my plane of choice, the learning curve was high. I damaged it, got it fixed, damaged it, got it fixed, hired a mechanic, fired a mechanic fixed it myself, flew it until it broke, now Im fixing it. (cheap planes cost money) cheap instructors cost money. Go slow, research, ask for real references, check them, demand what you pay for or walk away.
graduation day is when you are happy with yourself, your skill, your plane and the friends you have made along the way. If you get into a Kitfox, you will be happy. This forum and the Kitfox LLC are the finest group of aviators I have had the pleasure of flying and working with. They have saved my tail. I was in Marine Corps aviation all my life. Retired. Thats my resume.
Kitfox IV classic Rotax 912 450 hours

[HighWing]

I just think it would be better to fly at the max LSA gross when in reality it is more than that than to fly a model 4 right at the max 1200 gross.

Does that logic make sense?

It depends. Doe the 250 lb pilot the newer models are a couple inches wider. However we all have heard student pilots comment on how the airplane flies - jumping off the ground on the first solo after the instructor is no longer adding his weight to the takeoff weight. Structurally maybe as far as robustness is concerned, but Kitfox has an unblemished record structurally in all models, so no issue there. It all depends on personal preference. Similarly engined a lighter Kitfox will be the performance champ in all areas with the possible exception of cruise speed. Longer takeoff and landing roll, lower climb but faster cruise vs. Shorter, faster and slower is the difference with consideration of the room as well. My flying has been virtually 90% solo with gross weight flying only when going to the factory flyin with wife on board or similar trips. Just some food for thought - there is just no textbook right answer.

[N981MS]

In our Zenith 750 group we just went through this and were finally able to get insurance. We have/had a number of guys with a smattering of different minor issues and these are some things I learned from insurance company questioning:

A few things insurance companies like: Lots of recent time without claims. Especially in type. Advanced ratings. ie IFR, commercial.

Some they do not like: Experimentals, students (especially students in experimentals), Light Sport Pilots, older pilots (yep they discriminate), groups of 5 pilots or more.

Put your picture together out of these things and they may or may not insure you. If they will not, it is probably the student in experimental issue. Our policy says "no students" and "LSA pilots must have 100 hours TT". Our Private pilots only need to be current with an instructor sign off.

The better your picture looks the less they will charge. There is a possibility it will be cheaper to get your special issuance than to pay the higher insurance cost of a Light Sport student in an Experimental. The primary downside is if you fail to get the special issuance your Light Sport aspirations are shot.

If you get your private first you will not regret it. You may at some point have a need to exercise the benefits of the Private over LSA. Your insurance will likely be cheaper.

I am not "down" on LSA. The fact is that insurance companies to some degree are. To them, for all they know an LSA pilot might have a medical issue that could cause them a claim.

You will love a Kitfox.