580 feet enough for a runway?

[rogerh12]

Howdy all;
We are looking at a house in the country, and I noticed it has a front to back lot distance of 580 feet, with no trees at either end... humm. How comfortable would you be flying in and out of a field that size, with a model-4 and 75 hp?
Roger

[Av8r3400]

With 1000' of unobstructed, not even a fence, clearance it is a usable distance. It will be a white knuckeler every time, though.

A 580' hole in the woods is suicide.

[WWhunter]

I think a lot of it depends on your experience. A low time guy in a relatively new to him aircraft, yes, as av8r3400 said, suicide!!! For a well experienced pilot that knows his plane it is maybe do-able.
I had a 1,000 foot strip in the thick woods with tall trees on both ends and I was landing/take-off a Champ in and out of it. Granted when heavy with a passenger it could get quite exciting if the winds weren't good.
Another thing you have to think about is the neighbors, will they have a pi$$ing maych with you when you are on approach or taking off over their property? I am very lucky in this aspect since my land is entirely surrounded with state forest. But guess what? I still had someone complaining that I was flying low. Had a deputy drive up and I had to explain that I need to fly low in order to land.

[n85ae]

If I had 580 feet of mowed grass, and there was not a fence or trees at the
ends and the overrun was just a field I would do it. I use less than 500 feet
for takeoff and landing all the time, but never with something to hit beyond
that 500 ft ....

Mine is a Series 5 with IO-240B so it's a bit different airplane, my biggest
problem would be landing if I had too much speed, as it could eat that short
a field pretty quickly.

Jeff

[avidflyer]

Sorry if I'm dragging the topic to the side a bit, but Keith, what engine did you have in the Champ, and what was your approach speeds? Thanks, Jim Chuk

[Dave S]

Roger,

I don't have a IV, however I have flown out of a 1000' grass strip with my 7 and I know full well there would be conditions ( wind etc) that can occur where I would not use the same strip.

A 7 is not a IV, however, I do agree with Av8r3400 100%.

I didn't even try the 1000' strip until I had a lot of practice on long strips and was certain I could operate within that distance without memorializing the situation in ways a person wants to avoid.

Sincerely,

Dave S
KF7 Trigear
912ULS Warp Drive

[alanr]

You guys are giving me some concern about my decision to buy a 7SS kit.
In the UK a lot of flying is done out of small 1000' grass strips. Currently I fly out of a 1000' grass strip which has 50' trees at both ends with a CZAW Sportcruiser with relative ease in all wind conditions, crossed and otherwise.
I have heard comments about the Kitfox 7 being a bit of a 'Floater' in the flare, I wonder if the same is true of the current 7SS?..Your thoughts would be much appreciated.

Cheers,
Alan

[n85ae]

Alan -

All of them from Series 5 newer can be floaters, but it's really an issue
of pilot experience. I think (and this is simply my speculation) that a lot of guys
have a hard time getting comfortable with flying a really slow final approach. My
plane has a VERY flat glide in a wide range from 60-85 mph. So if you get faster
than 50-55 on short final it's sailplane time and it will go a long ways in ground
effect. My stall is around 38-40 mph on my indicator, so flying final at 50 is
a fairly safe number, but wind gusts can easily exceed that margin so it's
tempting to fly a bit faster. 60 feels really comfortable, BUT I could float 500
feet in ground effect if I do. So you really need a fairly calm day and a very
slow approach and you can plop down and stop in a very short space. Takeoff
is never an issue solo as I'm off the ground in 150-200 feet unless the passenger
is heavy.


Regards,
Jeff Hays

[av8rbc]

I have flown in and out of a 1000 x 40 ft grass strip the last 8 years. (King George CSK8). The last 4 in a Titan Tornado ll, which I approached at 60 kts and landed at 50 kts. With brakes, I was stopped in 300 ft. Without brakes, the roll out was never more than 500 ft. We have 2 Model IVs at the field, and neither have had any problems getting out or back in, ever! Landings on runway 23 is over an elevated highway, power lines, and between trees on one side and a building on the other, and lastly over a dyke. And with a passenger. Piece of cake! Looking forward to doing it with a newly purchased KF 5 Safari.

[alanr]

Apologies Roger for hijacking the the thread but I hope my question was also relevant to yours.
Thanks for the info Jeff...Do you think a tri-gear would be better suited to a short strip?...easier to manage the float maybe?

[SkyPirate]

My 5 is a TD, recent grass field, short field landings 150' roll out, no wind, house abstruction on approach


That was the first landing on that field for me, im sure i could shorten it

[n85ae]

I always fly Tailwheel, and have never flown a trigear Kitfox. I think 150' or so
rollout is about right. But that's not really the issue, the issue is getting on the
ground at the right place. I would fly mine out of a 1000' grass strip without
any hesitation, but the idea of trees at the ends does not have much appeal.
I'm in the category of pilots that has had an engine failure, so tree's aren't
something I'm very thrilled about at the airport.

A 580 foot grass strip would work, but it would depend on what's at the ends
as to whether it was safe or not . I would not try a 580 foot runway buried
in a forest ... Even with a field at each end I can imagine some go-arounds.


Apologies Roger for hijacking the the thread but I hope my question was also relevant to yours.
Thanks for the info Jeff...Do you think a tri-gear would be better suited to a short strip?...easier to manage the float maybe?

[WWhunter]

Avidflyer, Jim....My Champ was highly modified. It was a 7AC-CONV via the Buzz Wagner STC. I think you may have seen it at Mobergs. It had an O-235, VG's, droop tips, etc. etc. I really hate to answer your question on approach speed. It isn't due to not wanting to say, but I honestly forgot. I sold the plane last summer and the last 3 years I never took it off of floats and put it back on wheels. I sure regret selling it that's for sure!!
I know the plane was almost impossible to stall, it would just mush along if I kept on the rudders. I am thinking (not sure) that I was around 45 mph I came over the trees. I would slip the heck out of it and then just before slamming into the ground I hit the throtle enough to arrest the sink. It was touchy though as even a little too much power would shoot me right back up. Of course, typical Champ, the brakes were nearly worthless and if it would have had better brakes I would of had no problems with a passenger and getting stopped while limited to the 1,000'.
I think some airplanes really come alive at slow speeds with the installation of VG's and the Champ was one of them.

Back to the original topic.....as I suggested earlier, I think it can easily be done if you are an experienced pilot, especially in that plane. The plane I am currently flying (RANS S-7) out of my strip can easily be flown in and out of 3-400 feet. It all comes down to your experience level. I sure wouldn't try it if I were a beginning pilot. KitfoxNick needs to respond. I rode with him a while back. I can't remember how long his strip was but he was very comfortable in his plane and I think his strip was only a few hundred feet. Hilly terrain and short strip, he flew like he was a part of the plane.

[rogerh12]

Maybe I should just reserve the 580 foot strip for emergencies, like zombie attacks or somethings.
Thanks for all the ideas guys !!
Roger

[kitfoxnick]

500' is very doable, 200 hundred is doable on a steep hill. I think what's more important is how it's laid out. Is there any obstructions a tall tree can easily cost you 400' even if you aggressively slip with the nose up. Heck a corn stalk can cost you 75'. Is it up hill? Some very nice short strips I've been into are on the side of some steep hills I have a neighbor that operates a 150 on 600' of hill. Is the strip on top of a hill or is it down in a bowl? A clear strip on top of a hill with no obstructions dosent need to be very long as you can drag it in and just chop the power. The best tool for learning short field are bush wheels at 3 psi. Rember any advise given here is worth what you paid for it.
God bless,

[herman pahls]

If I could have a strip at my house I would be all over making it happen if it is safe to operate out of the majority of conditions.
All the advice you have been given is excellent.
I will share my short field experience and hopefully it will be helpful.
I fly my Kitfox's out of a 650' one way strip during the dry months.
It has an no obstruction aircraft carrier approach at one end and 100' trees at the other.
I average using about 225' in my model 2 and my new to me model 4 uses about 75' more at my current proficiency.
On short final I monitor my GPS ground speed before committing to land since at less than 800 feet from touch down there is no way to go around and clear the trees that line 3 sides of the runway.
I do not feel safe doing the short field landings I do without knowing the ground speed.
If the GPS shows ground speed in the low 50's I land.
Yesterday I made 2 approaches and the GPS was showing in the low 70's for ground speed and I chose not to land.
Then I found a field I could land into the same wind and had the model 4 stopped in 125 feet with the GPS showing low 30's for ground speed.
It is obvious brakes make a huge difference in how short you can land.
That said, most Kitfox's including my own have marginal braking.
The brakes that came on my model 4 with a 912s could not hold 3000 RPM with 29" tires and were not adequate to land on my 650' strip.
I modified the brakes and they will now hold 5400 RPM from the 912s and make all the difference in how short I can land.
I would make repeated passes at your potential airstrip in different wind conditions and density altitude to get a feel for if it is doable.
It sounded like you have the potential to land either direction which allows for go arounds which is a big plus.
Just having to clear a 4' high fence on an otherwise unobstructed approach could easily use up 100' or more of runway.
I friend's 600' one way strip uses a 50' wide cattle guard at the property line so he can use all 600' and not have to clear a fence.
I am envious that you may have a home strip and I hope it works out.
I have been flying my model 2 for years but the model 4 was different enough that I practiced dozens of landings before committing to my short strip.
Herman

[beeryboats]

I'm a new owner that has not flown his IV yet so excuse me if I ask a stupid question or two. Learning to fly a Piper Vagabond I was instructed in the fine art of the slip. I see nobody has mentioned that technique in this post. Do the KF's not slip well? I could slip the Vagabond right down to the numbers every time. I guess I'm spoiled, I have 1800' x 100' of grass right outside my front door. But I spend a fortune on diesel every year keeping it mowed. :eek:

[Av8r3400]

A Kitfox will slip very nicely.

Unlike your Vagabond though, a Kitfox (especially a IV+) will build speed and float for a mile very easily, too.

[SkySteve]

I slip on about 50% of my landings. Sometimes because I need to, sometimes because I want to, and sometimes just to stay sharp. Kitfoxes love to slip.

[Dave S]

Beeryboats,

Kitfoxes love slips........With our S7, I have found that the flaperons extended as flaps add lift, but not that much drag to steepen the descent; consequently, I routinely use slips to steepen an approach.

I cringe when someone says "watch this" in relation to flying, however, a demo pilot I rode with wayyyy back made this infamous statement then crossed the demo S7 over the approach threshold of my (at that time) 4,000' home 'port and had the wheels on the ground at exactly midfield through the use of a maximum slip....

Early on In my kitfox experience, it became real apparent that the KF glides a whole lot better than what I was accustomed to flying and I found myself practicing getting down to the runway in time to land with more effort than previously.

Slips work slick with the KF.:)

Sincerely,

Dave S
KF7 Trigear
912ULS Warp Drive

[N981MS]

How high and fast over the threshold?

[Dave S]

Sorry....I unintentionally left that out....500 - 600 feet above the threshold @ 60 mph...don't recall how much flaps were being used.

DS

[N981MS]

Cool. Thanks.

[Les Evarts]

Here are a couple links showing landing a Model IV-1200 on a "600" ft runway @ 3200' altitude. There is actually 900' here, but restricted by a e-fence in these videos. The telephone poles on the left are at 300 ft spacing. As you can see, there are plenty of obstacles, including a power line on the approach. I'm not proud of these landings and don't consider either "spot" on, in fact there is considerable floating in the second. I was just playing with a new camera.

I've been landing this bird here for 20 years in all kinds of conditions. At least for a Model IV, 580 unobstructed RWY length should be plenty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVHLaWqcb4Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wn6dvZNe5vY