UK newbie about to dive in!

[alanr]

Hi all,

A UK newbie here looking for maybe a bit of reassurance....

I have been lurking here on the forum for quite a few months now and have read, re-read and researched an unbelievable amount of stuff about building a 7SS. I have spent literally hours immersing myself in this forum!...I do want one and the practical aspect of the actual build holds no real fears.
However before I jump in feet first and place an order I have given myself a few weeks cooling off period just to make absolutely sure building a Kitfox is the right thing for me. I have built before, but the Kitfox, for me at least is a big build, bigger than I have done before probably 2000+hrs it seems, which is a seriously big committment of my time and effort, even though I am now retired.
The thing that currently concerns me though is that a number of builds seem to get off to a flying start but stall as time goes on ....The question is why? Is it just that they don't expect it to take so long or be such a big commitment of time or effort ?...Some seem to get to the covering/painting stage then stall, the question again is why?....Never having done it before is covering, stitching a fabric aircraft really so hard.

I am certainly not looking for a $30,000 garden ornament, so any thoughts or reassurance on the best way to approach or see a build through to the finish would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Alan.

[HansLab]

Alan, I build my first plane to be a Mk IV, and covered and stiched it all, and it was great fun! Just don't put your milestones too far: see every builders-evening as a seperate project, and you'll get to the covering and spraying before you realise.... It really IS great fun! You always can rely on this forum, and every other builder you know of.... Just get it on, and make yourself (and your loves-ones) some commitment: like every monday and wednesday is Building-day- whatever happens...
Your FOX Will be ready for first flight before you realise...

[Esser]

Hi Alan,

My project has stalled but not due to my lack of interest. It is a pretty busy time in my life and I have found with the project that setting deadlines only results in beating yourself up. If I was retired, my plane would have been done a year ago.

So far the plane is very straight forward to put together. You will want to keep adding and adding to it. I find that if for life reasons, I take time off it is hard to get back into it but once I am back into it I want to spend too much time on it.

So although I haven't practiced this myself, if you do something small everyday, you will be done quick.

[Dave S]

Hi Alan,

First off, great to have you among the group and I want to commend you for your interest in Kitfoxing.......I'll tell you one thing that did it for me. I swore I'd never buy a plane I have not flown in....so I got a ride in a IV at our local 'port from a friend; and, went on to test drive an S7. Flying it sold me on the plane...I had been suffering for years in beat up rental airplanes which were about all I could afford to rent......The characteristics of the Kitfox turned out to be exactly what I wanted performance wise; and building a Kitfox gave me a new airplane which I could be the repairman on so I knew I would not have to wonder how good a job of maintenance was being done....FWIW....three of my last 4 rental experiences prior to deciding on the kitfox ended in mechanicals......very tiresome to say the least.:mad:

OK, so your question about why the heck is it that there are homebuilt airplanes that never get finished? This is not unique to Kitfoxes...it is a malady of homebuilding in general. It is a bigger problem with one-off types that are not kit based. Obviously there can be problems with life events that can alter a course we have decided on; but, I firmly believe most of it has to do with a person's motivation. Building an airplane has common factors with getting a pilot's certificate...you have to want to stick with it...look how many people start pilot training and don't finish too..:confused:..... Consider the fact that each one of us who has built, tested and is flying a home built airplane was walking into the same arena with the same observed success rate that you have seen...yet we all did it. You have to want to. You have to want to for the right reasons. Many of us are pathological mechanics, engineers and science geeks......building a plane fits in well with that background but there are others who don't have that background yet succeed quite well.

I'll share my formula with you....don't know if it applies to anyone else but I am guessing it might a little.

1) I tried it, flew it and had to have it. I think a lot of us are like that. I was pretty sure that when I get to 103 years old on my deathbed, I would not likely say: "Gee, I wish I never built and flew that airplane". Doing it is a remarkable experience that few people enjoy....

2) Did I think about it and study the thing to no end? Did I make up a plan and consider the resources I would need? Did I check the NTSB files to find out what kind of bad stuff people do to themselves in a kitfox? A place to build? Did I think about how I would hangar and operate the plane when it was done? Forgoe other activities? The answers to all was yes and the details came back very affirmative. Maybe just a little thing; but, I even checked with the available insurance carriers to see how they would establish my rates if I went with them.....When I told them it was a KF trigear....they said they love 'em.....tells you something.

3) A few major things that definitly helped me with getting the plane done in 3 years and 1200 hours in spite of my job.

- I swore I would make sure I would do something on the project every day I was home, even it it was something stupid simple like sorting bolts or filing records.
- I made sure I located the project in my home.....used the basement (and yes, I measured the size of my stairway to be sure the complete wings would get through so as to avoid the classical homebuilders dillema) and the attached garage putting the car out for the duration - what is so important about the project being located where you live is that you can get to it easily and don't have to plan a highway trip to the hangar. You will get it done sooner if it is close by so you can get at it easily.
- I got everything at once.....my opinion of the old trick of buying and finishing some tail feathers, then getting some other stuff in sequence is that it is a motivation killer. If a person can't get it all at once, at least get everything except the FFW. By having as many of the parts available as possible, you can always move to another part of the project if you tire of one part or get stuck on something. Getting it all at once will help with getting the project done.
- The blessing of a supportive wife and family is huge...they don't always share our interest but at least they know where to find you:D
- every once in a while, remember that until it is flying, the value is minimal, remember that the less time elapses doing the build the less you will pay on kit insurance and the sooner you will fly - those things can help motivate a person.

Covering and rib stitching.......I was lucky enough to get a small amount of experience with an A & P on recovering a certified airplane....enough to realize it isn't all that hard - he was kind of a grumpy person that was always complaining about me being too particular like "Hey dumdum....this plane ain't going to Oskosh, it's gonna be abused by students - don't make it look too good now, ya hear?" OK - to each their own:rolleyes: . Frankly, covering was quite fun & interesting because of learning how to work with materials new to me. Rib Stitching???....I locked myself in the garage with a needle, thread and the book....some facilitation involving an alcoholic beverage and some cuss words and a person magically metamorphoses into an expert in a few hours....the book is great.

In the end, each of us has to answer our own questions on this....A person has to be able to buy the parts, a person has to have a place to work; and, a person has to have or acquire certain skills. Other than that the recipe is simply motivation, motivation and motivation.

Take care and gool luck with your interest,:)

Sincerely,

Dave S
KF 7 Trigear - Flying
912ULS Warp Drive

[Dave Holl]

Alan
As you know I have been building my MK7 for 10 years! Family and work getting in the way but I am also lucky that I have another aircraft to fly!
I have enjoyed the build and continue to do so and I know I will finish it.
I also intend to do the test flying if the LAA will let me. I intend to do some training with stick and rudder this year if you wanted to try a kitfox you could come with me!
Dave

[alanr]

Hi again all,
Hans, Josh...Thanks for the thoughts ...it really helps. Josh when do you hope to get back into it?
Dave S.....defintely sounds the sort of thing I would do...really made me laugh!
'I locked myself in the garage with a needle, thread and the book....some facilitation involving an alcoholic beverage and some cuss words and a person magically metamorphoses into an expert in a few hours'....

Dave H.. Thanks for the offer I will give it some thought if i have any funds left over after buying the kit I just may join you.

[HighWing]

Alan,

Nothing really to add except to reinforce the something every day idea. I always liked the parts where something was curing or drying over night. It was great incentive to go out the next day and check it out. I do find, however that switching gears is a bit tough at times. What I mean by that, is that I can get involved in other things at times and it is hard to get back into the groove, but once there it is very enjoyable once again.

[alanr]

Lowell and all,
The message theme that you are all saying is obvious really when I think about it, but hard to do in practice sometimes maybe when life gets in the way, is to try and keep the momentum going by doing a bit every day.
I guess the thought of falling by the wayside and not finishing it is a fear that will keep me personally going. Like I said before an expensive garden ornament is something I don't need.

Thanks everyone for the encouragement really good to be joining a great bunch of people.
I suppose that means I had better get on, join the fun and place an order....!

Alan.

[Dorsal]

Alan,
First, I hope you do jump in, both the build and the plane are a great deal of fun. The only thing I would add that is different is to know yourself. I did not adhere to the every day principal as it is just not me. I am more the type to work obsessively for several months than nothing for a few. I also tried to avoid the deadlines and guilt that can undermine the enjoyment of the process.
As Dave S said "In the end, each of us has to answer our own questions on this" I hope you find yours.
Best of luck to you.

[Paul Z]

He'll shipping cost has got to be a major concern for those of you building across the pond. It would probably pay for the all of the instruments. :eek:

[mr bill]

Do something every day, even if it is a task that takes only a few minutes. If you can, fly something else occasionally, so you don't get in a hurry. Setting schedules and getting frustrated will take a lot of fun out of the project.

[alanr]

Thanks again all,
Paul Z ,
Yes the shipping cost to the UK is not nice at all and was a major concern but John McBean has sorted me a shipping quotation that is not too bad and I have now factored that into my cost calculations.
Bill,
I have built before and have a CZAW Sportcruiser (they came in kit form to the UK in 2008/09) so I will always have something to fly when I want a day off from building.
I wanted to build something wing fold and totally diffferent to what I already have. I think the Kitfox 7SS will fit the bill nicely.

Alan

[Dave S]

Alan,

Well, if you have built a Sportcruiser, although it is a composite aircraft, you already have airplane bulding skills! Heck, you're good to go!

BTW - the Sportcruizer looks remarkably similar to a kit aircraft known as the "Pulsar" which was sold in the US by the previous kitfox company.....do these aircraft have the same DNA?:confused:

Dave S

[alanr]

Hi Dave,
The actual building part holds no fears for me at all really apart from not having done any fabric covering or stitching before, it is just the question can I remain personally motivated for 2000+hours that is of concern and the fact that so many others don't seem to make it to the finish.
It is trying to understand why these guys don't make it to the end and if I can do anything different to ensure that I do make it to the end and flying status that I was trying to get my head around.

Don't think the Sportcruiser which is metal has any DNA similar to the Pulsar. Closer to the Zenair 601 I think.

[Paul Z]

Alan,

You are the first person I know of that spells your name Alan like mine. It is my middle name. I was contemplating doing the 10 Country Run that is done by the Triumph Drivers group in the UK. I was shocked at what it cost to ship my car there and really shocked by the cost to ship it back. It would have been fun but some Heath issues got in the way. I really think you could build a Kitfox in under 2000 hours. It is not like doing a scratch build aircraft. I tried building a composite scratch build it took 10 years an 2000+ to make the basic fuselage and wings. It would have taken another 2000 to assemble, wire, finish, and paint. I developed a sensitivity to epoxy and latex gloves because of it. I was thinking of building a Kitfox, but John McBean had a flying Kitfox for sale I couldn't turn down. The building process is a lot of fun and somewhat addicting, unless of course you develop an allergy to the primary construction material, and latex gloves. I kind of wish, I had built a kit, versus buying the SLSA. The SLSA I have is great, but I am extremely restricted in making any changes to it.

[alanr]

Hi Paul,

Well there are a few of us old Alan's I think over here in England although no-one names their kids Alan anymore do they. A bit of an old fashioned name I think.
Regarding the Triumph run you would probably be better instead of trying to ship your car over in contacting the Triumph Owners club, flying over and finding someone to either join on the run, or maybe rent a car once you get over here.
Yes developing an allergy building an aircraft is not a nice experience and a lot of people do get it, fortunately I have managed to avoid such things so far, long may it continue.
I have found a few photo's of your plane here on the forum and it looks a superb aircraft, I am sure you get great fun out of it without making any modifications anyway.:)

Alan.

[Paul Z]

Alan,

Here is my favorite photo of my Kitfox, John McBean ended up having to fly from Homedale Idaho, to Mesquite Texas. The weekends I tried to fly it down, but the weather got bad, and I'd couldn't fly it back. The next time work got in the way, so John recommended that they needed to deliver one to Florida so they could fly them both down, both planes are in the photo. It has been a great plane. I really would recommend doing the Quick Build kits, it should cut a lot of time off of the build.

I check around trying to find a TR6 to rent for the 10 country run, but no one would rent one that left the UK.

[alanr]

It looks beautiful Paul.
What do you find is the ideal or most comfortable cruise speed?
I usually find that with most planes there is a speed that you can sort of tell that the plane is at its happiest.

[Paul Z]

Usually fly at 4800 to 5000 RPM, and I'll usually see between 100 to about 105, since I took off my wheel pants. I have cruise with it up to 5400, but it tends to like being under 5200. I'm kind of the seat of the pants pilots, I usually don't even look at the RPMs much less speed, I fly what feels good to me at the time. I'm planning on flying to Oklahoma City later this week, I'll pay closer attention to it, and send you a report.

[rosslr]

Gooday Alan, nice post question that has demonstrated one of the great parts about building a Kitfox - the support of these guys - I have never met any of them but know them well and they are all generous with their expertise and advice - I have never waited long for all the advice I have needed when 'stuck' or unsure. And the manual is pretty good. I got my kit in October last year and have just reached the covering stage. Unlike many, I didn't by everything - I am still learning my way into the engine and instrument choices - and they are developing sooo rapidly I am postponing it as long as I can!

So, I have made pretty good progress but now am sitting in Bali - doing a bit of work actually ( I will attach a pic of our house here but that will probably not convince you I am working!) - and will be back into it in about a weeks time. I don't work regularly (not every week, nor 9-5) so I don't use the 'do the little bit every day' approach to it. In fact, that would annoy me - I prefer the 'full immersion' as I like to see substantive progress. However, the approach is obviously a negotiation between personal preferences and logistical practicalities. I don't think you should worry at all about why people don't finish Alan - there is no embedded problem with the design nor the kit that is causing people to slow down or stop. Their reasons will be personal and vary. The real challenge for each of us is make sure the project is capable of full-filling our personal aspirations - if the answer is 'yes', then go for it! life is too short... Look forward to seeing your progress Alan! - I suggest you treat this forum like a bank - make heaps of deposits of your progress and then you will have no problems making a few withdraws when you need them!

Best wishes

Ross

[alanr]

Hi Ross,

Thanks for your thoughts.....I have read and re-read your kit build progress to date many times and it is brilliant. I need you to keep going to fill in all the gaps in my knowledge. So please continue with your excellent progress reports please.
You are absolutely right, I fully agree this forum is probably the best I have come across for the warm generosity of knowlege and expertise shown...simply a great place to be.

Working in Bali.?...Now c'mon you can't kid me that anyone goes to Bali to work!..

Best Regards,

Alan

[Esser]

Hi Alan,

Basically when the weather warms up a bit but I still will be making slow progress. My wife and I are about to start our own business and that will be taking cash and time but will be worth it in the long run.

[Paul Z]

Well I went flying today, 4900 RPM Cruise RPM, with speed of 109 MPH

[alanr]

Hi Paul,

Sounds like you had a good flight.
Thanks for the information.

Alan