Vixen

[av8rbc]

Hi there everyone

I'm new to this forum. I'm looking at a Vixen for sale, at 590 hrs, with a 912-80 Rotax. He is asking $28K. Given that everything is in decent shape, is this a good price?

John McBean told me that there is little difference in performance between the Vixen and the Series 7. Your thoughts? And what, if anything, can be done to retrofit/improve the Vixen.

Thanks,

Gary

[kmach]

Hi,
That seems to be a decent price, or in the range area . Do you have more details or any pictures? Allot depends on extras and avionics in the panel .

[jtpitkin06]

If you are not into building. Then buy it and fly it.


The price is irrelevant. It’s worth what you are willing to pay for it. If you buy the worst handling underpowered airplane and you get the best deal in the world, you will still be unhappy with it.


If you pay an average or slightly above price and you love the airplane then the price quickly fades into hours of joy flying it.


You can make your own assessment as to what a fair price is. Kits are about 20K. Add to that an engine for another 20K and then a panel for who knows what. To build it yourself will cost north of $50K. and likely take a few years.


So a flying Kitfox with a mid-time engine offered at $28K sounds like a super bargain to me.


As a side note... in the matter of experimental aircraft sales psychology. I never understand the builder that sinks $50K into his airplane for just the parts, counts his labor as nothing and sells the airplane for $28K.
Imagine doing a frame up restoration on a 1963 Corvette. Spend $50k on the resto and then sell it for $28K. Not a chance. Someone might get a steal at $45K but the $28K would be just an opening bid. I guess aircraft builders think very little of their efforts.


But hey, there’s always another airplane out there for half of what it is truly worth.


To summarize: Buy it, fly it and go for a hamburger. Drop into Elmer Johnson’s mountain top strip for a campout fly-in weekend, Fly into Memphis to take in some great music downtown. Let the controllers figure out what to do with a 60 knot airplane on final with 37 Fedex airplanes backed up behind you.


The $28 K? It is like putting money in a coffee can. You’ll get it all back in ten years
John Pitkin

[DesertFox4]

The $28 K? It is like putting money in a coffee can. You’ll get it all back in ten years

Depends on the aircraft John.


I've seen this one up close.
My opinion, needs a total rebuild.:(

[Paul Z]

It’s like putting money in a coffee can only if you take care of it, and when you decided to sell it it is in good shape. I’ve looked at one that Cruise was 85 at best, I also looked at one that was needing recovered. Look before you leap, and fly them, before you buy!

[Marvk7]

I've researched this aircraft myself. Call his A&P in Tracy and really look at the plane, it has not had any maintenance done in the years it has been flying.. It has sealant peeling off in the tanks which the owner doesn't feel is a problem. I agree with desert fox 4

[Esser]

Realistic cost of building in Canada:

I say buy that plane and fix what ever you need top fix or upgrade because if you want to build a new one it's going to work out something like this:

The kit base price is just over 20,000 lets call it 20 for simple math. Plus you want options like Cabin heat, quick build wings(The plane you are looking at has quick quick build wings), profiled tail, dual brakes etc.

Options: $7,000

You then need to ship it to you. Being in BC it won't but too bad but to ship to Ontario I paid almost 3,500.

Then you have to pay tax. Both GST and PST being in BC. The tax on my kit was $3,143.38

So you are sitting at about $34,000 and you haven't even bought the tools you are going to need to build it not to mention the time. Tack on an engine for about $25,000 (The dollar is falling), your instruments $5,000-$10,000 depending on how fancy you want to get and your paint. At least a couple thousand in material.

With the plane you are looking at (I haven't seen it) you have a fully built plane for $28,000 with engine and instruments. Buy the plane, strip the fabric, replace the the tanks, fix what you need to sell your 912UL engine and buy a 912ULS or what ever you want and you can have yourself a bit of building fun and a newly covered and fixed up plane for about $25,000 less than to build it yourself not to mention personal time investment.

I build because I like building. But if I wanted a plane that flew, I would just buy one.

My .02

[jtpitkin06]

Whether buying an airplane, car, or house... assessing the value always depends on getting a prebuy inspection. If we take that $50K airplane and it's listed at $28. there usually is a reason. Some of the owners on this site have seen this airplane and it may not be in the best of shape. OK... so get it inspected and do some horse trading; or, pass on it and look for another that doesn't need work.

But chances are, if you adjust the price on any airplane with the present condition considered and make the required repairs, you will get your initial investment out in ten years. Cessna 150's on the used market were once selling for $4K. They are now $16 to $23K+. Used Kitfoxes were once selling in the low teens. They are now in the high $20's to low $30's. The coffee can is still valid. But note that a coffee can doesn't pay any interest unless you are digging up those mint condition gold coins in the California foothills.

Now, maybe if you bury the Kitfox for 100 years. Hmmm...

John Pitkin

[HighWing]

Depends on the aircraft John.


I've seen this one up close.
My opinion, needs a total rebuild.:(

For what it's worth, I know this airplane as well. I wonder what constitutes a total rebuild. Granted the airplane has seen some time and to my understanding it has not been hangared in its lifetime, but also believe it has suffered no structural damage in its history. i have flown alongside it on several occasions and know a bit of the history of the builder and consider him a friend. It likely needs recovering, but a total rebuild?

[Paul Z]

Nice looking bird, I do like the Vixen.

[kitfox2009]

Gary
I fly a Vixen with 912UL. Bought it in CA in late 2009 with just over 100 hrs. I installed a IVO IFA prop and now can get 117 MPH if I want to burn some fuel. It now has 450 hours, burn regular unleaded mogas and normally cruise at just over 100. I get off the ground quicker than most GA`s with a pretty comfortable ride. It has been across the Rockies at 11,000 feet plus a few times.
I don`t honestly think you need a 912S unless you are flying out of a lot of short unimproved strips. The UL is cheaper and easier to maintain in my opinion. Of course, my opinion is only worth what it cost.
Cheers
Don

[DesertFox4]

i have flown alongside it on several occasions and know a bit of the history of the builder and consider him a friend. It likely needs recovering, but a total rebuild? I'll try to be a little more specific below as to my short statement about it needing a total rebuild and trying to prompt prospective buyers to do their homework as I too know bits of its history.

This aircraft probably hasn't changed much since we first met the builder and his wife at our fly in many years ago when this Vixen was first put into service. It was rough then. Sorry for being so blunt. I had a long time to stand and look it over with cowlings off and visually inspect the panel and wiring.

I would think the basic fuselage is OK and the wing structure also.
It certainly could use a total stripping of fabric, recover and repaint. At that time I'd also install new fuel tanks and a complete new fuel delivery system.
That's a lot of work and may take a new owner as long as building a kit from scratch. That is not giving any consideration yet to engine condition or all its supporting systems.

Somewhere in my memory I recall a nose gear failure and I think it was on this aircraft and was due to a corrosion issue that affected a few SkyStar manufactured struts. Not the builders fault. If I'm thinking of a different aircraft I ask forgiveness for the memory fade. If it did, how did that affect the engine if at all?

Only one of us on this thread has had a chance to really inspected the log books in depth and his opinion has been given.


Nowhere in my previous post did I say that this aircraft should never be purchased or flown but that you really need to see the plane in person before making decisions. Again, my opinion.

I think the right person could take this aircraft and make it not only a great flying but a great looking Kitfox. Nothing there that can't be fixed or improved with effort and time. I wish the seller well and good luck with the sale. He is a very nice person and in my opinion, honorable.

P.S.
The Vixen is high on my list of great Kitfox models, always will be.

[Paul Z]

I mostly concur with Desertfox4, and I would definitely inspect the p[lane for flight worthiness. However, while inspecting it I would make a list of what must be done immediately, and what can be put off 6 months. Once I figured that out I would repair all of the immediate issues, and then I would prioritize the 6 month stuff. Once I got all of the immediate stuff fixed (Priority #1), the aircraft signed off by an A&P, I’d fly it for the summer, and start ordering parts for Priority #2.

I’d go over the entire plane and do a fabric test to verify the fabric is good, and start planning a repaint. I personally don’t care for the yellow, so I’d paint the cowling white, the tail looks ok. If the fabric is OK I’d leave it at that. I am not fond of that big Venturi on the pilots side, and since most Pilots inevitably want a little different panel, I’d then plan for either a complete new panel or adding Electric DG etc. to get rid of the Venturi.

The Vixen is a very nice looking bird, the style is not something you can’t get if you buy an Outback or a Series 7. As for the Price go look at the plane fly with the owner, and then offer him $20,000, or $25,000 whatever you think is fair, point out the things you believe detracts from his asking price, after that is negotiations. However, I think it is a good idea to be a nay sayer from the start so you don’t jump and pay too much for something that needs a lot of work. However, it is a Vixen, and they are very distinctive. I definitely would go look, and give it consideration!

Paul

[Slyfox]

I don't know. total rebuild. is that an observation on quality of build that one person does over another. there are people that put so much into a build that when done the aircraft is a show piece. not bashing this type of build but there is the person (me) that put what's needed into a aircraft and moves on. My airplane for instance is far from being a looker. but I will say it's a 20 foot airplane and looks fine from that distance. you get up on it and look real close and you might start saying it's a junker. I have polyfiber paint in the standard variety of white. it is hangared and still after a few years looks like crap. do I care. no. why? when I fly somewhere it doesn't get a single look. I think that is kool. why? I don't have kids climbing in and on it. I like that. keep those little scoundrels. off my plane, ya baby. I raised my kids, don't want any more of those rug rats around.

do I trust my plane, with my life. the value is what you make it. I'm thinking of repainting my fox, what color. white of course. with these little babies, you can't be to careful. prying eyes looking up in the sky, if white, just another airplane. on the ground, oh it's just a white plane, boo hoo. what's next. I like that.

[Paul Z]

I agree with Slyfox I don’t think or should I say “know” if it needs a total rebuild, but I would inspect it to see what needs done. I have already said the two things that would be on the top of my list. I think $28,000 is a fair price!

[n85ae]

I think a lot of Kitfoxes are great builds right up until somebody tries to finish
them, and then they turn into something less than desirable ... The builder's
capabilities, or lack of, really shows up in the finishing. Not so much in the
basic build. So if you're willing to rework one of them it's a pretty safe buy.

That's my two cents worth.

Regards,
Jeff Hays

[Paul Z]

As I said earlier go look at it until you see it you don't know what shape it is in.

[Cosmofly]

Off topic... sorry, but can the Vixen be converted to a taildragger, with a mod to the fuse, meaning amending, or strengthening the area where the main (front) gear would normally be fitted to?

:confused:

[PapuaPilot]

Cosmofly,

I asked the same question and the answer is no. The Vixen can't be converted to a tailwheel like the model 6 & 7 can. I got the model 5 Outback because I wanted a tailwheel plane.

Of course anything could be changed if you really wanted to;)

[Av8r3400]

It was not designed for the quick change option, but there is no reason it can't be done.

It may take a little welding and some fabric work, that's all.

[Paul Z]

With a little aircraft grade tubing, welding rods, and a good welder, it could be done.