John's Build

[jrevens]

I've enjoyed & benefited from builders documenting & posting pictures of their projects on this forum, so I've decided to try to stop being so lazy, & share a few pictures once in awhile. Esser's recent posts about the LLE & the wingtip mounting strips prompted me to start.
I didn't have a multi-tool to cut the fiberglass, but I found that a Dremel tool & a large sanding drum worked very fast & easy for me. I scalloped the trailing edge of the LLE, as done by Bill & Phil (Desert Fox 1).
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I didn't like the lack of edge hole clearance on the tip attach strips either. What I did was bend a little upturned lip on the edge on each one that allowed me to position them tightly against the rib, with the "lip" bending up/over the small bead or fillet of epoxy at the rib/cap-strip joint. This gave me adequate edge hole distance to suit my fussy nature.
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[Dorsal]

Looks good John, glad you are posting some pics.

[Esser]

Hey John,

That is a great idea for the attach strips. I may have to do that for my right wing.

How long did it take for you to cut those scallops?

[jrevens]

It didn't take long at all, Esser. After tracing the curves, the sanding drum made short work of it.

[Dave S]

John,

I really like your modification with the lip on the attach strip....very neat.

Dave S

[chefwarthog]

Those pictures inspire me..... I am still finishing my garage.... but it will be finish by spring..... so seeing thoses photos help me to stay focus!!!!

continue the good work!!!:D

[rosslr]

Thanks for the posts John - and it is great to see more examples of how to approach the tasks - I also like the fact that you and Josh are a month or so in front of me so the pics and posts become doubly useful!

cheers

ross

[jrevens]

This was probably really dumb... I built a digitally controlled iron out of a $15 1000W dry iron (Amazon). Took the whole top off the iron, stripped everything out except the heating element & fusible temperature link, & added an RTD sensor ($13, eBay). Used a cheap S.S. temperature controller ($30, eBay) & a S.S. relay I already had. I also had the switch & aluminum, so I went crazy. A fun little project, but this is definitely one of those "no wonder my Kitfox is taking so long to build" ideas. It is kinda nice... +/- 1 deg. Set it & forget it - it's looking you in the face displaying the actual temperature & set point all the time. Looks a little unwieldy, but it's actually pretty nice in the hand.

[HighWing]

John,
I've got to say that is quite the iron. I wonder if there is a market for such a thing. I remember using my iron and watching the temps cycle over the thermometer and trying to calibrate it with the ebb and flow of the primitive thermostat. That should give pretty tight control of the temps.

[rosslr]

I think that is fantastic John! I reckon you just went into the rental market! I'm sure builders up to covering would love to hire that for their project! If you get bored and want to export one to OZ let me know.

cheers
ross

[Dorsal]

Very cool iron John, I would have one less hole in my covering job if I had that :o

[jrevens]

In attempting to fit my balance weights to the flaperons, I believe that the contour/fit is not good. It is very poor at the leading edge. It doesn't look like the shape can be changed or "massaged" as needed because the bend needs to be greater right where the arm is welded to the base, & the nose bend is not right either. There is a gap of at least 1/8" at the apex of the nose. At the same time the "tail" is about in the correct position, with the factory-punched hole in the correct position in relation to the flaperon trailing edge. All 4 weights are the same. Yes, I am trying to install them on the right side (bottom) of the flaperon. I'm curious if anyone else has encountered this, or if I just got a batch of poorly-made weights (or?). On another local Kitfox, the weights follow the contour of the flaperons very closely & nicely. I know John & Debra will take care of it if necessary, but it's late at night & I'm feeling a little bit frustrated... like I said, I'm just wondering if this would be considered acceptable by other builders.

[PapuaPilot]

I think they should fit better than that and would ask about getting a new set. On the other side I think that they could be installed safely and be totally functional but they would not be very pleasing to the eye.

I was just looking at my balance weights today (which I didn't install) and they have a little gap, but nothing like yours. Mine are only about 1/16".

[jiott]

I agree your gap is more than most, but when they are installed the Hysol fills the gap and can be radiused out with your finger so it looks much better after final paint.

I believe I also remodeled the leading edge bend on the weights slightly for a better fit. You can't do much but you can do some. Also pull them in tightly when you rivet them on-it slightly squeezes the thin flaperon for a better fit.

[Dave S]

John,

Here is a photo of how mine fit....this photo is after riveting/bonding the weights to the flaperons.

I agree with others that the space can be minimized by pulling the weight down when riveting; the space can be taken up with hysol and the final result will be structurally sound; however, the contour of your weights is definitly different than mine; and, there is quite a bit of space showing.

Wondering if there are two different sets of weights available?....one for the current flaperon design and one for earlier symmetrical design??????.....Don't know.......:confused:

Dave S

KF 7 Trigear
912ULS Warp Drive
St Paul, Minne-snow-ta

[Floog]

Here's another picture, John. Your bends have a little tighter radius than mine. I picked up this SS in April,'13. I also smoothed some of the 'chicken poop' welds on the counter weights. Anal? Perhaps...

[Av8r3400]

Metal working on that scale will wreck the powder coating.

I agree with the prior suggestion to get ahold of John McBean discuss the problem and get new weights.

[jrevens]

Thank you all, guys... It's great to have such a good group of people to bounce something like this off of. I appreciate the replies! I agree that a little bit of bend would help, Dave. Even after that though, if I'm able to pull them down & decrease the nose gap it will probably move the tail & pre-punched hole too far aft, as it is already sticking out a little beyond the trailing edge of the flaperon. I also believe it would be ok structurally as is, but I definitely don't like it. I'll talk to John.

[Paul Z]

Here is one of the Flaperon counter weights.

[Paul Z]

Looking at the passenger side inboard, the hysol seems to fill the gap.

[HighWing]

I find this interesting. It appears that John's mass balance weights fit significantly better than Pauls and that Pauls don't all fit the same. My guess is that the tooling is getting a bit long in the tooth - as they say.

I am attaching a photo of the 1992 version of the mass balance weight fit on my new Model IV and another of a weight I made after SKystar went bankrupt when there was some demand for some of the then unavailable parts.

[jdmcbean]

Actually 2 different flaperons... Tooling was never originally adapted... Here's what they are like today.. The Older style flaperon weights fit tight as well.
These weights were simply place on the flaperon...

[jrevens]

I thought I might start posting some pictures of the project again. I got sidetracked with other things in my life for awhile, so the covering with Oratex got put on hold. However, I'm back on it again. I posted some pictures on the "Oratex Revisited" thread of my rudder. Here are a few of the elevator...

[Paul Z]

John, what happened to the Homebuilt digital iron? I see you have a fancy new square iron. I did a search and found the Tognar Iron. Heck it was only $129, looks pretty good, especially for the $ and a lot less time then building the digital iron.

http://www.tognar.com/toko-t14-digital-wax-iron-120v/

[jrevens]

Paul,
I originally looked at the Toko & saw that it went to a maximum of 320 deg. F. (160 C.) I thought I wanted the capability to go to a full 350 deg., so I got a wild hair & made my own. It turns out that the T-14 is recommended by Oratex, & 320 is plenty. The only thing I wish either one of them had is a Teflon coated base.
I gave the iron to a friend before I bought the Toko, knowing I could always build another if I wanted to. And people wonder why it's taking so long to build my Kitfox! :rolleyes:

[jrevens]

With the recent posts about running the pitot lines in the wing, I thought I'd post some pictures of how I did it. I've relocated the pitot tube on my wing, bringing it closer to the fuselage where it's protected between the wing & the lift struts. I know that others have done this successfully, and I think that it is far enough away from the propeller arc, somewhat based on my experience with my T-18 where I located a similar mast even closer to the fuselage. I'm using a combination pitot/static unit that I made. I ran the tubes in the groove/channel between the tank & rear spar.

[jrevens]

Here are a few more pictures of the Oratex covering. I'm very slow, but almost through with one wing also. Just started working pretty steady on it again, so the wings should be done fairly soon. I'll post some pictures of those later.

[Dave S]

John,

Nice work on the pitot tube and fabric! I Like it.

I particularily like the re-location of the pitot tube - That is one thing I am paranoid of with our bird - the pitot tube being out where people can easily run into it. I have resorted to stringing some "Crime scene tape" between the PT & some stakes in the ground when parking where people, particularily non pilots, are wandering around aimlessly....

Looks like you have worked in your static port next to the pitot.

On another question for the group - has anyone drilled a moisture bleed hole at the bottom of the elbow of the pitot tube? If so, how has that worked out?

Sincerely,

Dave S

[jiott]

Dave, I didn't drill them myself, but my Dynon pitot tube/AOA assembly has very small drain holes located near the elbow in both the pitot and AOA tube. I think as long as they are much smaller than the tube opening there should be no problem.

[selenski]

John,
It appears that you do beautiful work. I am building a SS 7 too and planning on Oratex covering. Is you entire plane going to be white, or will you be adding and color accents or stripes? I'm way behind you, so this is just dreaming. Keep sending those pictures.
Thanks,
Joe

[jrevens]

Thanks to all for the comments.
Joe - I plan to have some colored trim. I've got some ideas, but haven't designed anything yet. It will be simple and I hope not too plain.

[TahoeTim]

Can the trim colors (also Oratex) be ironed on top of the base color?

[Av8r3400]

Vinyl graphics would probably be much cheaper and easier...

[jrevens]

Can the trim colors (also Oratex) be ironed on top of the base color?
Yes, you can use colored Oratex fabric & glue, vinyl graphics, paint, etc... many options. Oratex also sells their own trim materials in many different colors, in straight tapes & sheets (that can be machine cut to make logos, numbers, etc.).
Any kind of paint is compatible with and seems to adhere to it very well also.

[foxbait]

Hi John, great job, I will be on the Oratex band wagon as well, a bit pricey but I don't have paint facilities, equipment or the expertise required for a paint job plus I don't want to deal with the toxins involved, so it is also the right product for me. Just hope I can do the kind of job you are doing. Really appreciate the pictures. May be hounding you for advice down the road.

Mike

[Kurt.A]

Excellent workmanship John! Love the handmade pitot assembly. That is a great idea moving it inboard, should save on lots of blood loss down the road. Lars and I have been e-mailing back and forth and I will definitely be going the Oratex route when I get to that point. There is just to many benefits and features to ignore it. They are coming out with an Orange soon that I will be really interested in. How is your test fabric outside doing? Have you noticed any changes occurring?
Again really nice work!

[jrevens]

The test fabric looks just fine. It flaps around in the breeze, so it's getting direct sun exposure on both sides occasionally. It feels & looks just like it did when I hung it up there.

I'm really appreciative of all the nice comments. To me it's looking good, but things sometimes look better in photographs. I think it's OK, and I feel good about it. This is a great forum and a great group of people... thank you all.

[jrevens]

John,
...
On another question for the group - has anyone drilled a moisture bleed hole at the bottom of the elbow of the pitot tube? If so, how has that worked out?

Sincerely,

Dave S

Dave,
In my experience, I don't think that one is normally needed. There is not, or shouldn't be, any air flow through the pitot system - only pressure. Not only will a drain hole potentially cause moisture to move into the tube, because it fosters air movement into the tube, but if it's big enough to allow drainage it will potentially affect the pressure and accuracy. If it's really tiny, moisture will not drain easily (if at all) because of surface tension.

[jrevens]

It's been awhile and progress has been very slow because of family health issues & my laziness. Finally finished a wing... here are some pictures.

[ken nougaret]

Nice relief you made for the strut attach bolts. I wish I had thought of it before covering.

[Dave S]

John,

I particulary like your treatment/fit/finish around the lift strut attach points:)

Keep this stuff up and next thing you know you will have to become a test pilot soon!

Dave S

[jrevens]

Where does the sheet metal parts fit? Excellent workmanship!

Paul, that is the fabric backing plate that goes around the front lift strut fitting. Those are pictures of the one for the other wing, as I had already covered the wing in the pictures. That is what is forming the little relief pocket to give extra clearance for the bolt/nut assembly. Overkill, but it doesn't add any real weight.

I appreciate all the nice comments. Ross - the pictures make it look better than it is. They don't show all the lumps, bumps, & beginner mistakes. Believe me, your beautiful bird would hold it's own in any comparison.

[Av8r_Sed]

I sure like the look of the Oratex straight edged tapes - very clean looking vs pinked edges!

Looking good John!

John, how do the Oratex finish tapes lay over the bumpy rib stitching? From the photo it looks quite good.

[jrevens]

I originally decided on the straight edge tape because it seemed to be a better choice since there wasn't going to be paint to hold down all the little pointy edges. It just seemed better structurally. It's an unconventional look, but it grew on me... I like it too. Thanks!

[jrevens]

John, how do the Oratex finish tapes lay over the bumpy rib stitching? From the photo it looks quite good.

It does conform nicely around lacing, ridges, rivets, etc. I was a little concerned about adhesion around the waxed lacing cord, and after some testing, I just gave the area a quick wipe with some enamel reducer and made sure to remove any little lumps of wax by the holes, then applied adhesive. It seems to be sticking well. It shrinks/stretches/molds pretty well around protrusions. As you said, it shows in the photos.

[jrevens]

Since I receive questions about my project quite often, & haven't posted a report in a long while, I wanted folks to know that I'm still here & that it has gone very well... I just haven't done much in many, many weeks. My wife has had some health problems, and a few other issues have kept me from it. As far as the Oratex goes, I finished the wings, tail feathers, & did the fuselage belly skin before stopping. I hope to be able to start on it again and finish the fuselage any time now - I'll post more pictures & a report when I do. Then I'll order an engine and prop from Kitfox. I'm going to use a 912 ULS, and Whirlwind is at the top of my list at this time.
I'm planning on being at OSH with my T-18 again this year (for the 19th time with the Thorp). :)

[jrevens]

Well, I finally was able to get back with it, and reached a milestone last week - covering complete. I also ordered my engine (912ULS) & Whirlwind Prop & spinner from John & Deb. Here are a few pictures of the fuselage covered (no trim stripe yet)-

[ken nougaret]

John, your plane is beautiful. Could you tell me what you used around the door frame, for that protective edge? Ken

[Dave S]

John,

What I like about your build....and some questions

1) I know you have more wires to string; however, everything you have installed is straight, neat and well secured.:)

2) I do like the current header tank with the fuel fitting in the front/cente:)r.....makes it easier to route and avoid the "busy" area in the center of the fuse - also - in my opinion, the side exit on earlier header tanks was more prone to transmitting vibration to the aluminum line fitting where vibration = fatigue wear.

3) Covering is nice - straight & neat & tape edges well laid down. Fit & finish is nice.:)Last year when I visited the poly fiber dealer I got my covering materials from, the first thing he did was inspect the edges of my tapes - for the record, passed - (whew!)

4) Like the rudder cable fairings:) - did you make them? I found that the commercial ones out there were kind of clunky/oversized and stuck out way more than necesary apparently to accomodate a variety of installation configurations......I ended up making some - didn't like the commercial ones.

5) I see some kind of deal behind the header tank quick drain on the bottom....what's that?:confused:

Sincerely,

Dave S
KF 7 Trigear
912ULS Warp Drive
St Paul, MN

[jrevens]

John, your plane is beautiful. Could you tell me what you used around the door frame, for that protective edge? Ken

Thank you Ken!

I bent up some stainless steel strips, similar to what the factory does. They press on nice & tight, but I also bonded them with a bead of Hysol. I have a small sheet metal brake, & I bent them out of .015" thick 1" wide strips (purchased from McMaster-Carr) so they have a 1/4" leg on both sides.

[jrevens]

Dave,

Thank you for the nice comments!

The Oratex can be a little difficult, and there is a learning curve. I've tried to be careful with tape placement, doilies, cut fabric edges, etc. What you see is what you get, & there is no nice layer(s) of paint to sort of "meld" everything together & hide minor issues. All in all I'm happy with what I've got. My samples hanging up outside in the Colorado sun are still looking fine.

The cable fairings are the black ABS plastic ones sold by Aircraft Spruce. I cut them way down, gave them a coat of paint, & just glued them to the fabric with some clear 5 minute epoxy. I thought of putting a doily around the perimeter, but I already had a couple of layers in that "busy" little area, & it looked just fine to me.

Behind the header tank is an antenna mounting plate from the factory. That hole is for my transponder antenna. It seemed like the right spot for it.

You may have noticed that I did a little welding on the fuselage. I added a second handle, and I also added a plate for my com antenna - my fuselage was made before they started welding on the plate & the extended razorback tube. Mine's kind of half way between what they do now & the original design. My com antenna is not as close to the baggage compartment, & my razorback tube doesn't extend as far forward. Guess I had to be different.

[Dave S]

Ah-ha! I didn't catch the extra handle on the fuse...I like that mod. Long ago I found out that if you ever have someone who is not familiar with an airplane come running up to help move it even if you don't want the help.....you better have something for them to grab onto! Don't ask me how I know that except that it involved a cessna rental plane and about $300 worth of plastic:eek: (and yes, I always carrry duct tape which got us back home from central Wisconsin.)

I had some welding experience on our Kitfox too......wasn't for fun additions like you did.....just for repairs and missing parts I didn't get at the time of the old defunct skystar bankrupcy. Check out the attached photo - this is the tab that the rudder pedal adjustment arm anchors to at the bottom of the fuse under the console. The little bugger just dropped off pretty much on its own. Temporarily wired up the departed tab till I found some 4130 gas rod - turns out the original welding was a bit overzealous next to the bend and there were just a few molecules of steel holding it - rewelded the rest of them too as I considered how little fun this would be to fix after the plane was together.

Not aware of anyone doing Oratex out here yet - I like you Beta testing out in the Colorado sun - if it survives that - should work anywhere!

Enjoy - I think you'll have the satisfaction of a plane well built!

Dave S

[rosslr]

As always, a lovely job John. a series of photos like is so good to see. It's great to see you back into it and look forward to watching the progress ......and I hope you wife is well.

cheers

ross

[jrevens]

Thank you Ross. You always have a kind word to share, and I really appreciate it. I sure wish my project was progressing as quickly as yours is. You'll have that beautiful bird in the air before you know it!

[rosslr]

Cheers John.
I'm afraid my efforts will never cut the mustard in comparison to your workmanship but it is the best I can do with my skill set and I sure am looking forward to then flying part now. What engine are going with John? I guess after the covering you will turn your attention to the pointy end of the plane! And as a matter of interest, what paint and process do you use with the Oratex? Same as with Polyfibre?

cheers

[jrevens]

Ross,

I've ordered a 912ULS from Kitfox, and hope to see it in a few weeks.

As far as Oratex goes, it is a paint-less system - it can certainly be painted, but is lighter if you don't, & you can skip that labor-intensive step. It was designed to not have to be painted.

While I've got the "microphone", I wondered if there are any more opinions/comments about the new aluminum radiators... is it worthwhile to spend a little extra & put one in from the get-go? I've got one of the older copper ones from Kitfox.

[Dorsal]

John,
First of all you project looks beautiful, I have enjoyed following the build and am a bit envious of your workmanship.
I have been very happy with the AL radiator having swapped it in last year. I also added a regulator which keeps my CT at 202 + or - about 1 degree all year. The AL radiator seems to have more cooling power and saves some weight so if I were doing it over I would start with the AL. Dave S just posted a nice write up on the slight dimension differences.

[jrevens]

Thanks Dorsal... I'm leaning that way. I've already got one of those thermostats shown in your picture, from Lowell (Highwing) & Mark F., that I'll use.

[jrevens]

Happy day... late this afternoon UPS delivered the Whirlwind prop & spinner that I ordered from Kitfox. It looks beautiful! The spinner is also great... all cutouts, nut-plates, etc.are already made/installed & ready to go with a nice, smooth white gel-coat finish. I'm thinking I may be seeing my engine within the next few weeks!

Got the wheel bearings greased & tires mounted, then played with the tailwheel. I'd been toying with the idea of a rod type tail-spring (maybe titanium like Sonex uses), but have given that up for now. I think it could be very good, and it would lessen some of the side load forces that have resulted in broken bolts as well as being lighter & giving a softer ride, but too much work for now. I did end up machining a rear bracket for the flat spring out of 2024-T3 aluminum. It has lips that come down & help with the side loads. I could have just used 1/4" bolts like some are doing I guess, but didn't. I felt it prudent to add a couple of large washers at the front of the spring - the rear plate was welded to the fuselage at an angle that created a bending load on the rear bolts when the front was tightened down... not good. Next will get the main gear installed & be ready for the engine.

[jrevens]

I did this stuff awhile ago, but thought I'd share some of what I've done to fabricate my doors.

I made a little drill guide, or jig, out of steel to quickly & accurately drill #40 pilot holes in my door frames. It gets them centered & drilled straight through perfectly.

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9830

After getting the door frames "adjusted" to fit the airframe the best I could, I fitted & drilled the Lexan & all was looking good until I tried to fit the fittings for the lift struts.They would scrape on the airframe because the clearance was just too little there. If the doors were moved to prevent that, they touched somewhere else. For some reason my frames were not the best match for my door openings. In case someone is wondering... yes, I made sure that my aluminum door frame pieces were fitted tightly to the airframe square tubing when I fitted & bonded them in place. I had already done a lot of work on these doors & decided to live with what I got. I fabricated new fittings for the struts out of a "sandwich" of two pieces of 4130, which mount on the inner surface of the frames, eliminating the problem for me.

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I mounted my plastic with some stainless steel screws that I added nylon washers & small cushioning pieces of silicone tubing to.
98329833

Finally, I made some aluminum spacers to mount the hinges to the doors, allowing them to be snugged up securely while just slightly pressing against the plastic.

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[airlina]

John , I'm beginning to think you are after one of those bronze Lindy's at OSH. Some nice stuff going on in that workshop, keep it up can't wait to see the finished product. Bruce N199CL

[jrevens]

Thank you Bruce! Naw... I just like makin' things. Can't help myself!

[jrevens]

Makin' progress. My engine was estimated to arrive today... arrived in Denver on Friday, but it is now scheduled to arrive tomorrow (Tuesday). Just like Christmas! :D

Painted access covers & other small pieces a few weeks ago, as well as the flaperons... I agonized a little over keeping paint out of the hinge openings & off the bearings. I wanted a clean job & also wanted to paint the hinge arms (I have seen some older Kitfox ones that have gotten a little rusty in spite of the plating). I did something I'm sure others have done... I shoved foam in the openings, & then made masks out of some silicone rubber material I had (paint doesn't stick to it). Worked good.

[jrevens]

Getting ready for engine... machined a fuel filter mounting bracket out of aluminum (just because I could, & the plastic one from the factory didn't appeal to me).
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9982

I wasn't particularly taken with the steel tee fittings I got in my older cabin heater kit - they require transitioning from 5/8" hose to 1/2" hose going to the heater coil, which means a couple more connections from each tee (the new ones from Kitfox are very nice welded aluminum ones that are 1'x1"x1/2"). It's very hard to find 1" x 1/2" tees for hose, made out of any material. I finally located some beautiful CNC machined aluminum ones made in California... $24 each including shipping.
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[Av8r_Sed]

Hi John, beautiful work as always. Can you provide the source for the heater T's? I've looked for these previously and came up short.

[jrevens]

I looked just about everywhere before I found out that Kitfox was manufacturing some now... but I had finally found these guys - JTR (Jaguars That Run). I think they started out in the 80's, specializing in engine conversions on Jags to American V-8s.They have brass & aluminum radiator tees in all kinds of sizes.
http://jagsthatrun.com/Pages/Parts_TPI-TBI_Brass-Tees.html

Maybe John will consider sourcing these from them. Kitfox makes them in house now, but I got 2 for less than the price of 1 and that included shipping.

[Av8r_Sed]

Thanks John, I'll check out the JTR folks.

[jrevens]

Got my engine, so I've gotta' get busy! If I didn't make so many custom parts & mods I might be flying by now. My friend Stan Specht says I'm building a "John Fox". :)

Got the firewall & engine mount on, including the aluminum battery box that I built.

[jrevens]

Here's the other side of the firewall, showing cabin heater detail & my ground buss.

[jrevens]

A couple of pictures of the brake system.

[bbs428]

Just read thru your build John. Very nice photo's and write ups.
I appreciate your workmanship.

I hope to shamelessly plagiarize some of your (and others) problem solving ideas into my build. ;)

All the best

[HighWing]

I had the same thoughts. I had a lot of add ons as I built and don't regret a single one. I always felt it better to do the deed rather than possibly thinking down the line, I wish I had. Much easier in the normal build sequence, though it does adds time to the log. And delay the magic of the first flight.

[jrevens]

Mine will be a little different machine, what with the Oratex fabric and many other things, but I am very much a "builder/experimenter" at heart (as opposed to an "assembler" only)... I'd like to think I'm much like Lowell and many others on this forum. Thank you all for the very kind comments.

[rv9ralph]

John, your workmanship is impeccable! I have a question, where did you get the brake line that goes from the bottom of the gear leg to the caliper? I am converting my KF3 gear from stock to Grove and am looking for that connection.

Ralph
Livermore, CA

[jrevens]

Thanks Ralph... I'm unsure what the policy is about publishing info on companies who are not advertisers on this forum. I may have screwed up in the past, so I've sent you a private message.

[DesertFox4]

John and all. "the admin." has no problem with members talking about any product on the forums that they personally use or that makes their aircraft safer or lighter or more fun. Only product manufacturers or their employees must be paid sponsors to come on the website and promote their products.
We all benefit from actual experiences so share away and John, great workmanship by the way. Love the photos. :)

[jrevens]

John and all. "the admin." has no problem with members talking about any product on the forums that they personally use or that makes their aircraft safer or lighter or more fun...

Thank you Steve! I wasn't sure, and I respect & appreciate the sponsors of this great resource. I just didn't want to step on anyone's toes.

The brake lines are S.S. braided with a Teflon liner. I used the -3 size (3/16"). They came from ANPLUMBING.com (Earl's Store #1) in California. I used 10" lines in the picture. Could've gone a little shorter & used a 45 deg. fitting at the bottom of the gear leg, but I decided that I prefered a little extra clearance & flexibility where the line comes close to the bleeder fitting. The caliper assembly also comes off nicely for changing the linings without having to disconnect the hose.
I've fabricated stainless braided teflon & other types of hose, using reusable fittings many times, but they are much more expensive. These pre-made ones are very good.

[Paul Z]

Here's the other side of the firewall, showing cabin heater detail & my ground buss.

Where did you get the on and off flow switch for the heater? It looks like something Jeggs would sell. Well it's not in their catalog that I can find.

[Av8r3400]

I did similar braided stainless brake lines. (Summit). I went shorter, so I had to plumb with the bleeder on top. I like your lines better than mine...

[mr bill]

John: Assuming your hoses were prefabricated with fittings already installed, is there a part number for your hose?

[jrevens]

The part number from ANPLUMBING.com is 63011710. That's a -3 size hose with a 90 deg. fitting on one end & straight on the other. The last 2 digits denote the length (10").

[jrevens]

I did similar braided stainless brake lines. (Summit). I went shorter, so I had to plumb with the bleeder on top. I like your lines better than mine...

Shorter is good... looks nice Larry.

[jrevens]

Where did you get the on and off flow switch for the heater? It looks like something Jeggs would sell. Well it's not in their catalog that I can find.

The valve is from Peterson Fluid Systems here in Denver - http://www.petersonfluidsys.com/plumb_ballvalve.html

It was really stupidly expensive (don't tell my wife).

[mr bill]

I am using the same valve in mine. Expensive, but the quality is such that I don't need to worry about hot coolant spraying about in the cockpit.

[jrevens]

Finished up my brake system completely. I was debating on how to penetrate the belly skin with the lines, and finally decided to use these little plastic model airplane fair-leads. I made some thin aluminum backing plates & epoxied the fairings to them.
10132
10133




I left the plastic Nylaflow lines uncovered where they go through the fairings, with enough uncovered inside so that they pull smoothly through when the landing gear flexes. I simulated the arc & amount of movement during that flexing (considerable), and they seem to extend nicely as needed.

[HighWing]

I did similar braided stainless brake lines. (Summit). I went shorter, so I had to plumb with the bleeder on top. I like your lines better than mine...

The grove gear with internal brake lines is "gun drilled". This is the reason for the threaded hole at the bottom end of the leg. My 2001 Hammerhead gear - Hammerhead vs. Grove Similar to Avid vs. Kitfox - had a hole drilled from the aft edge exactly between the mounting bolts to intercept the gun drilled channel. A plug was screwed into the bottom hole and the brake line into 1/8" NPT threads cut into the aft drilled hole. This put the exposed line exactly behind the hard structure of the gear leg and caliper. The propose was to eliminate any possibly of an object impacting and damaging the brake line when landing off pavement. Not an engineer here, but with the aft facing hole positioned between the axle mounting bolts, I can't imagine it causing stress failure of the gear. Being up and out of harms way, the line remained Nylaflow throughout. Light weight was my goal along with serviceability. I think if I was using Grove, I would drill and tap the holes that were offered as an option by Hammerhead.

[Dave S]

Lowell,

I like the cross drilling idea......when assembling our kitfox, I pondered the possibilities that could present themselves with the fitting sticking straight out the bottom......then used a 45 degree fitting pointing aft with the tubing running begind the gear leg and around the top. Also used the braided 3,000PSI hydraulic tubing with the rather expensive (In my opinion) fittings and mandrel to install them...

Makes me wonder why Grove hasn't gone to the cross drilled idea - the line and fittings would be totally out of harms way.

With the trigear.....I obsess often with checking the condition of the brake system oftem as low speed taxi is pretty much dependant on the brakes working. (I know, I know.....I expect 10,000 recommendations to make it a tailwheel:o)

Sincerely,

Dave s
KF7 Trigear
912ULS Warp Drive

[jrevens]

The grove gear with internal brake lines is "gun drilled". This is the reason for the threaded hole at the bottom end of the leg...

I've seen that done by others also, Lowell. In fact, Stan Specht's Mod. IV has it done. It's a fine idea. I just forgot before I installed the gear & then was too lazy at the time to remove the gear again & do it. I also wish I had radiused the front outside corner of my gear mounting blocks, but again I didn't want to take them off again. As an aside, I've also covered my Nylaflow lines with a protective sheath terminated with heat shrink at both ends. I did this not only for a little extra protection, but also to help keep the sunlight off the lines, as the nylon will slowly degrade and harden from UV. I don't worry too much about damage to the stainless braided lines - they're pretty tough, but it is a possibility of course. I'm running 8.00-6 tires, and don't expect to be landing on anything too awful rough anyway... you never know. :eek:

[N213RV]

Avery Tool sells these, it's what I'm using:
http://www.averytools.com/prodinfo.asp?number=10728

[jrevens]

Those are nice! I started to make some tooling to form something similar, but then I stopped at the hobby shop, found the plastic ones, and got lazy again. I know that the way I decided to install them is not aerodynamically the best, but it really presents very little extra drag over what the lines do anyway. I just wanted something to guide the lines into the fuselage, and the way I did it seemed to give me the smoothest entry for the movement of the lines as the gear flexed - that's based on where they had to connect at my parking brake valve.

[jmodguy]

John
How much do you have invested in the Oratex? I am intrigued by the one step process! Website doesn't list any cost information. Did you go with the 600 or 6000? Did you use the wider material or the narrow?
I built RC aircraft for 30 yrs so this sounds pretty easy! Not to mention all the painting and sanding that I really am not looking forward to...

Regards
Jeff

[jrevens]

Hi Jeff,
The Oratex is very expensive, and it probably doesn't help that it has to come from Germany to a distributor. I paid a little over $6k for most everything I needed. This topic has been discussed in a lot of detail on this forum - search "Oratex", & also look at my comments on this thread. To compare the price & advantages/disadvantages between Oratex and PolyFiber (or any other Ceconite type system) is not as easy as it might seem. Obviously using Oratex is not quite like using a model covering system, and is also somewhat easier than PolyFiber in some ways and harder in others. There is a big advantage in lack of toxicity - it can be done in your home, without breathing protection. It is stronger and lighter. The cost and weight of the covering job will be consistent from job to job, as opposed to PolyFiber, which can vary drastically based on how much & what type of paint you use, what type of painting and safety equipment you may have to buy, whether you do it yourself or hire someone else to do it, etc., etc. Time is also a factor - it probably takes longer to install Oratex fabric (it did for me), but then you are done for the most part. Painting, as you know, is a big, time-consuming job. There are most likely many other comments I could make, but the bottom line is that I would do it again ( that's me... others may feel differently).

[rainbird]

About cutting scallops on the Laker Leading edge. I used a gallon can for the radius just slide it in till it lines up with the ribs and draw the arc. To cut it I use a pair of tin snips either left or right hand depending on what is more comfortable. Took about ten minutes per wing. Tape the leading edge in place, mark the scallops, take it off to cut, then glue it in place. With the fabric finished the scallops do not show. They do tend to reduce any puckering of the fiberglass leading edge.

[jrevens]

Have had a bunch of bad luck medical problems in the family, the least of which was me tearing my right rotator cuff & having it repaired... really slowed down the progress for a bit.

After hearing of the problems many people have had with the Ducati voltage regulators used by Rotax, I did a lot of research while not being able to do much else. I believe that some of the problems have been builder/pilot induced, but not all by any means. Anyway, I have a friend who travels to Holland regularly, and he has a relative there who could order what I have come to believe is one of the best alternatives (they are not exported to the USA, or sold by anyone here to my knowledge). The manufacturer, Silent Hektik, is in Germany. The unit has the exact same footprint and uses the same connector as the Ducati. It was marketed for the Rotax engines. It has a 14v, 37 amp rating (considerably higher than the Ducati), and is a real work of art, with solid machined aluminum case with considerably more heat sink area as well. The higher rating and better potential cooling are pluses. I found a test report by a guy in the US who had been able to obtain one, & he simulated operation while connected to a scope - the result showed superior performance, & he decided to install it on his CT. My buddy picked one up for me...

[rv9ralph]

So John, what is the availability/cost of these little beauties. I have been suspect of my Ducati Reg/Rec for a while (not always charging as expected).
Are you able to get a batch for your "Team Kitfox Friends"?

Ralph

[DesertFox4]

John, first off, hoping you are on the mend and family are well again.



Regarding reg/recs, I am on my 4th in 900 hours of operation. While I beleive my use of high power usage devices (Whelen strobes) during taxi times and other low RPMs times helped contribute to short longevity, I still think the Ducati regulator/rectifiers are not up to Rotax quality standards. I have since modified my electrical device usage and so far my latest regulator is still functioning.

I would be very interested in a more robust regulator as discussed in your post.

Ducati costs about $179.00.

[jrevens]

Ralph - It was about $220 at the current exchange rate. That's pretty expensive, but maybe cheap enough if it doesn't have to be replaced. I don't know what the price is for the Ducati units now. Silent Hektik won't ship them to the US for some reason. As I said, I'm also not aware of anyone selling them here.

Steve - thank you.

[AirFox]

I am also interested in installing this regulator. The Ducati regulator failures are a known issue to Rotax. On the New IS motor they have dual regulators that eliminate the overload problem. I had a Ducati regulator fail last summer while pushing 13 AMPs at cruise. The transmit on your radio can increase your load by as much as 6 amps. I am on my 3 attempt at ordering one from Europe. If Unsuccessful I'll get in contact with you John.

Scott

[Rodney]

John - I had rotator cuff surgery too and I really hope yours was successful and you recover soon. I was down for six months. Make sure you do the rehab. It's really important.

I too had a regulator go out and found no way to get one of those european units.

I found a replacement at Napa for about $100 bucks. Puts out 13.8 volts and handles up to 20 amps. It'll wire right in to the ducatti wiring harness with the exception of one wire that is not used. I've got about 40 hours on mine right now and all seems well.

Get well soon BUT don't lift too much too soon.

Regards
Rodney

[Av8r3400]

Rodney, please give us some more detail on the NAPA regulator.

[jrevens]

I'm hoping to get some feedback from the group... I'm trying to decide which mod. of air filters to use on my 912uls - I'm not using an airbox. I'm leaning towards the smaller (R-1060) filters shown on the left in the picture. I believe that these are the filters used on the 912uls powered Kitfoxes first, but then there is the larger RU-1400 (shown on the right) that Kitfox recommends now. Obviously, more surface area is good, but I like the looks & less crowded area with the smaller ones. How have the R-1060's worked out for those of you who use them? Has anyone switched over to the larger ones and noticed any difference in performance?

[Av8r3400]

I wish I could use the 1060s! IMO, I think they'll be fine for you, John.

I'm forced to use a 6" diameter x 2" wide flat ones because of the lack of room from the carbs to the firewall.

[DesertFox4]

John, the R-1060 smaller cone shaped ones work well. Desertfox1 has them on his 912 uls and I can attest it performs great and they do fit nice as you indicated. Haven't flown the other size yet so no help there. Sorry.

If you do decide on the smaller ones your Rotax will get along with them just fine. I have on occassions looked at them installed and thought to myself that they do appear to be somewhat proportionally small for a 100 hp engine. Yet they do work so there you go.

[gregsgt]

What about an RU2700?

That's what someone recommended for mine.

http://www.knfilters.com/mobile/mProduct.aspx?prod=RU-2700

[Av8r3400]

Greg, I've considered those for my plane. At 2" tall they would fit between the carb and firewall, and give me more clearance for the throttle and enrichener cables…

I believe they would actually flow enough CFM to work just fine for an 80 or even 100 hp engine. K&N elements flow incredibly well for their size.

(Mine are the RA-0450 (http://www.knfilters.com/mobile/mProduct.aspx?prod=RA-0450))

[gregsgt]

I've got the RA-0450 on mine now and due to the size and mass of them they have to be safety wired and I have interference problems with the choke and throttle cables. I also think it would help to reduce to reduce leverage on the carb boots from the shaking of the carbs if I went with something smaller. I'm going to change over to the RU2700 filters.

[Dave S]

Jrevens,

I don't see where a person would have any trouble with the smaller K & N filter.....the hallmark of the brand is extremely low restriction to airflow.

I think you are correct that generally speaking, more surface area is better; although, making sure the filters are always clean should prevent any restriction issues even with a smaller filter. Our airplanes don't seem to gunk up filters anywhere near as much as cars do.

Also consider since there are two filters if you are not using the airbox, each filter only has to feed two cylinders - essentially half the airflow for each filter.

Rotax tech info indicates the Airbox, which most people do not use, is good for a 5 HP performance difference. To put it another way, a 912ULS is rated at 100 HP with the airbox and 95 hp without it. (The Rotax powered GOBOSH LSAs on our field were rated at 95HP without an airbox). Performance may be more related to the airbox than the filters.

In the end, making sure there is room to change out to the larger filters if a person wants to experiment with both might be a good idea.

Sincerely,

[jiott]

I agree that keeping the filters clean is the biggest concern here. A fresh clean filter even smaller than the R-1060 will probably work fine. If I were operating regularly in off-airport, dusty, dirt strips with buddies who like to roost you with their prop wash, then I would go with one of the larger filters to avoid cleaning it so often.

[Dick B in KY]

I use the R-1060's on my 912 ULS and have had no problems. Gives me clearance on cables, wires and motor mount. Have two sets and switch them out at inspection time after cleaning and re-oiling.

Dick B

[jrevens]

Thanks everyone... I like the R-1060's, & decided to use them. The surface area of one of these filters is actually greater than what I have for filtration on my 160 hp Lycoming, so I have no doubt that it is plenty adequate for 1/2 of a 912uls.

As an aside, I believe that the extra horsepower with an airbox is based on 2 issues - first, you can feed the engine fresh air, unheated by the engine compartment. Secondly, you can get some ram-air effect with an external air inlet or scoop. The same basic thing could be accomplished with a filtered flexible duct going to each carburetor separately, & then you would have to incorporate carb heat into the system. The Rotax airbox does all of that nicely, plus providing balanced air pressure to both carbs. I decided to forego the airbox because I just like the simplicity & lack of clutter with the simpler setup, & having "carb heat" all the time with a little reduction in power doesn't bother me in this instance.

[jiott]

With an approx 100 mph (assuming no baffles) wind blowing thru the cowl area how much time does that air have to heat up inside the cowl? I am betting not much more than a 20F rise. Would be interesting to see some actual test figures on this. If it really is only 20F, that calculates (see page 5-7 in the Rotax 912 Operator's Manual) to be a little less than a 4% reduction of engine power. That is measurable but maybe not worth adding a lot of outside air ductwork, airbox, and carb heat controls. Just thinking out loud on an interesting subject.

[rainbird]

I just used a pair of tinsnips either left or right depending on how you are orentated To cut the scallops Its compleatly under control and no chance of the sanding drum making a big gouge. Time is not really a factor I think it took me about 1/2 hour to cut both of them. Probably about the same as it would take with the drum sander.
I wish I was working now on my plane but instead I'm killing time in Portland (100miles away) getting radiation treatment for prostrate cancer. All part of the price for answering the call of duty and serving in the Air Force in Vietnam. The duty that keeps on taking.

[jrevens]

That sounds good, rainbird... glad it worked for you. So sorry to hear about the cancer. I wish you the best of luck. Agent Orange?

[rainbird]

Yes It's Agent Orange. It's gotten me in several ways and killed my son and now my wife also has leukemia I thought I came out unscratched, little did I know. The radiation now is for prostrate cancer. Thank goodness for the Sport Pilot rule or I wouldn't have a chance of being a pilot.

[jrevens]

Been awhile & thought I'd try to post a few pictures. It's been such a slow process for me because of my inability to work on it much because of family issues, and also because I diverge and feel compelled to do things a little differently sometimes. I'm a guy who loves to fly, but I also love to make things with my hands. The engineer in me sometimes goes overboard with re-design or little detail changes to make the airplane what I want it to be. here are a couple of pictures of my cabin heater & bulkhead fittings for it that I made from stainless steel tubing. I've gone to 100% silicone tubing for the radiator, heater & engine hoses. I don't expect to have to replace them unless they get damaged somehow in the future.

[jrevens]

This is a simple little breather system that I made. Got a little drain on the bottom, and it comes apart for cleaning.

[jrevens]

This is how I mounted my oil thermostatic valve -

[jrevens]

Did something pretty crazy, and expensive... I re-designed the radiator a little, and had a custom aluminum one made by Ron Davis Racing Products in Arizona. It's a work of art - beautiful welding. This allowed me to route the coolant line on the pilot's side a little differently, bringing it down through an area where there wasn't much happening - nowhere near the exhaust pipe. Again - all silicone hoses.

[jrevens]

Some would probably consider it ridiculous, but I replaced the eight EPDM hoses on the engine with silicone. My plan is to not have to replace those in 5 or 10, or even 15 years, after the original ones would have aged and maybe stiffened & everything is in the way. Easy to get to now.

[Av8r3400]

John, when you finally finish this plane, I expect to see it at Airventure so you can collect your gold Lindy award.

It is a stunning piece of engineering artwork!

[DesertFox4]

Very nice John!:cool:

I also have one of Ron's radiators on my project. Phil had one made a few years back and never used it so it now resides on my 7SS. Ron makes beautiful aluminum radiators.:)

FWIW- when I replaces all my hoses last summer on the model 4, they were all still in very good condition. That was with 12 years and 900 hours of use.
Those silcone hoses should last forever.

[David47]

John, hi, my name is David Evans and I'm from Melbourne Australia. I'll be getting my Kitfox kit some time in the new year. In the meantime I've been following your build thread for couple of weeks. Mightily impressed with the way you're going about it. I have to thank you for giving me the inspiration to get stuck in to it and think laterally. Like Av8r3400, I just know that if you take the finished product to Oshkosh, you'll romp it in !. In the meantime, I'll be following your build and I'll also be posting when I start mine.

Cheers and keep up the excellent work.

Dave Evans

[jrevens]

Thank you Dave, Steve and Larry! It's really a gift to be able to participate in a forum like this. Sharing ideas has always been a joyful thing for me from the very beginning when I started to build my first homebuilt airplane, in 1975. My son was 6 months old then... he was 15 when I test flew it. I'm slow.

Dave, I look forward to following your progress! Good for you!

[cap01]

nice work john. wondering what silicon hose you used? i have a high time ul that the hoses should be replace and also a new engine on the way that i could change them while its easy.

[efwd]

Hey John, Im slower. I started an RV4 15 years ago and the boy was born. Never made it past the finished empennage. Wing parts still in box. LOL
Eh, Im having a great time with this one and the boys are helping when girls and video games have them too busy. So, nice job keeping it going while raising kids. And Thank You much for your posts and help.
Eddie

[jrevens]

nice work john. wondering what silicon hose you used? i have a high time ul that the hoses should be replace and also a new engine on the way that i could change them while its easy.

Hi Chuck,

I used hose, both straight & formed from several different suppliers. There is an awful lot of silicone hose available out there now, and the quality & selection seems to be better than it was only a few years ago. It's pretty tough stuff now, and you can get it meeting SAE & other standards. I saw a post on another site where it was stated that the writer didn't think that silicone was a good choice for an engine compartment, since there was a lot of oil & gas that it could be exposed to. Tell that to the race car builders. The fact is that you can even get silicone hose with a liner that is used as fuel line. I think the writer also missed the fact that the EPDM hose used by Rotax is not very compatible or recommended for use with oil or gas - to my knowledge. I've purchased it from 3 different suppliers (the first one is in Australia, where I bought some 11 mm fuel resistant hose for the 2 short sections on the carburetor balance tube) -

http://www.siliconedirect.com.au
(http://www.siliconedirect.com.au)

http://www.siliconehose.com/
http://www.verociousmotorsports.com/Shop-by-Category/Silicone-Hose-and-Fittings

I know there has been a lot of discussion about the 17mm ID distribution & return hoses to & from the heads. I wonder if Rotax chose that size to be able to corner the replacement market... it's very hard to find, and Rotax's prices for those small pieces of hose seem out of line to me. With silicone hose, I believe 5/8" ID should be perfectly fine, & what I used is compliant enough to stretch & conform nicely to the bulbed fittings on the heads & return tank - that's a single-ply "heater hose" rated at 5.4 bar. The combined cross sectional area of four 5/8" hoses is still considerably greater than that of the 1" ID hose that feeds & returns coolant to them. I've also found that the 5/8" hose I used curves nicely to replace the formed hose on the top/return of the rear head on the right side, without any appreciable restrictive deformation. 6' of the hose (black or blue color) that I used cost a little less than $23. This is a little bit of an experiment on my part, and I hesitate to recommend it to anyone else... proceed at your own risk. :eek:

[cap01]

john , thanks for the info and links. we have been doing some talking about the silicon hose and the question of the oil resistance did come up.

[jrevens]

You're welcome, Chuck.
A couple more points... silicone tubing has been used for fuel line for years by model builders. I have seen silicone that has been exposed to fuel & oil for many years that is just as supple as it was when new. I'm not an expert on this subject, but I read a long time ago that silicone rubber is not so much attacked by hydrocarbons as it is permeated by the smaller molecules. It's perfect for water & antifreeze, but fuel or oil can weep through it. The stuff just doesn't age like most other rubber materials. It also has a higher temperature rating.

[jrevens]

I sent in my paperwork for the registration to the FAA yesterday - a small step, but a good feeling. I've got a ways to go yet, but decided it was smart to register & pay $5 for a few years at a time instead of paying $10 every year to reserve my N number.

[N213RV]

Be advised that with registration comes the taxman looking for his share....

[jrevens]

In Colorado there is no sales or use tax on aircraft parts, hence that's not an issue for me (I believe). When I built my first homebuilt I registered it quite a few years before it was finished. The law was different then, and the state contacted me about taxes. They backed off when I said that it was an incomplete project, built from individual parts (much of the material purchased in Colorado, with tax duly paid).

[Rob3782]

How many 50 ml. tubes of Hysol 9460 did you use on the laker leading edge?

[jrevens]

Oh man, Rob - that's a good question. I think it probably took at least a couple of them. I honestly don't remember. :confused:

[jrevens]

Well, it was a good couple of days around here. A great break in the weather, with warm temperatures and light winds. I finally completed my painting - cowling, wing tips, and spinner. All done on my driveway. Typical paint job for me - lots of flaws, but it will do. The wing tips came out nice.

[jrevens]

I'm starting to get more serious about finding a home for this airplane. About all I've got left of the basics is the windshield & turtle deck. Here are some shots of the back of my panel. It's "old school" steam gauges... what I wanted from the beginning. Basic VFR, but I do have ADS-B in & out and a single axis autopilot. I'll post pictures of the front as soon as I get the engraved placards from my local small engraving shop. I'm mounting the GPS antenna under the glare shield.

[airlina]

As usual John, the quality of your build is superb, paint job looks good from here in NY and very tidy wiring job behind the panel. Mine looks like a bowl of spaghetti that fell on the floor! can you tell me what you used for your ADSB in/out . I will eventually have to equip , but I am waiting for prices to come down. Bruce N199CL

[jrevens]

Thank you Bruce. I'm using a Navworx ADS600-EXP UAT. I bought it while at OSH a couple of years ago when they were several hundred dollars cheaper - I think it was $1299. The current controversy with the FAA is finally getting resolved, & it looks like my unit will probably only require a software change (which I think can be done wirelessly via WiFi). It's been kind of stupid & frustrating, and honestly a little reminiscent of the Bob Hoover fiasco with the FAA. The units have worked flawlessly as is, according to everything I've heard from other owners. It's a real neat little unit & was the best value for all the features - built-in WAAS gps, ability to communicate via RS-232 with the transponder & alt. encoder (or if you have an older transponder a sensor that clamps around the antenna wire to get the squawk code is available), and built-in WiFi to communicate with my iFly gps and send weather & traffic to it & to my iPad both. I bought a new mode C Garmin transponder as I don't have the need for mode S, and they are much less expensive. Also, I understand that the periodic checks required are less involved & cheaper with mode C.

[jrevens]

Thanks Larry & Eddie. Eddie - yes, the dots are for masking. I used a lot of the S.S. tinnerman washers for flat head screws, & I roughed the backs of them up & bonded them to the fiberglass. I like the look, and there are some good advantages to using them that way with fiberglass, especially with holes close to the edge in my opinion. I also made a tool to modify those type washers by opening up the hole, and bonded them on as reinforcing/decorative bezels for the camlocs.

[airlina]

Thanks John for the reply on the ADSB solution, I have been reading about the FAA vs Navworxs and its good to hear it is being resolved. Sounds like a good bang for the ADSB buck. Like every other technology over the years the price of this stuff always comes down with longevity and competition, so I will be patient. Can't wait to see your finished product , and hope to see it close up some day like at OSH per chance? Bruce N199CL

[efwd]

Ok John, I have questions. You have a couple different products under your clamps to protect the airframe. Clear and black. What are you using there?
Eddie

[jrevens]

The clear is a 3M polyurethane anti-abrasion tape that I have used on the leading edge of my wood props. I usually use that thin stuff if I want to protect structural tubing under an uncushioned Adel clamp, or even one that is cushioned sometimes. The black is a self-fusing rubber (I think EPDM) tape when I want a little more cushion or clearance, or want to use a wire tie for instance. I'll use it around wire bundles sometimes too.

Speaking of wire ties, there is an article in the March Kitplanes magazine where the author states that it is "poor practice " to use them on aircraft. I have to disagree... just like everything we do with aircraft, there are proper ways to do things, proper tools and materials, etc., and then there's the wrong way. I think that lacing your wire bundles/runs is great, but I also believe that wire ties can be great for that too. I like the T&B ones with the S.S. insert, UV resistant black. They are very high quality, and pretty expensive, but I believe they are one of the best. They have to be tensioned properly and not too loosely. People complain about the sharp edge when you cut off the tail... it's very easy to cut those perfectly flush with a small flush diagonal cutter. I've got 'em all over my 26 year old Thorp, including the engine compartment, and there has never been a problem with a single one that I'm aware of. I've got them all over my Kitfox too. Lacing can be improperly done also... too tight or too loose, and it can just as abrasive when dirt gets under it as a loose wire tie. Tighten your lacing too tight & the much thinner (than the average wire tie) contact surface can do a number on the insulation more easily than a tie. Funny, I see that on my brand new Rotax engine, Rotax installed wire ties in multiple places to keep ignition wiring, hoses, etc. where they belong, and they're pretty cheap looking ones at that. There are factory built airplanes that have also used wire ties extensively. Wire ties seem to be the latest "whipping boy" among some "experts". Don't read me wrong - I believe that lacing is probably the best technique many times, but wire ties can be perfectly fine, even great if used properly, and they're so easy. Lacing can be a real PITA in some locations. The writer's statement just rubbed me the wrong way.

[efwd]

Thanks John. That 3M product comes at a premium doesn't it?

[jrevens]

Thanks John. That 3M product comes at a premium doesn't it?

Yes, it's not cheap. It used to be difficult to buy single rolls also, but I think that Aircraft Spruce sells it now. I use it mainly because I have it for the props, but it works nicely for me. I think the stuff I have is .008" thick.

[rosslr]

HI John,

I haven't been on the site for a while so it is great to see your getting to the end on the project! Looks fantastic work as always. I had to laugh at your comments about your painting though! I am sure you paint job is one that most of us would be very proud to achieve! Anyway, good luck with the rest of the project and hope to see the report of 'first flight' before too much longer.

cheers

ross

[jrevens]

Thank you for that, Ross. Seriously, the painting leaves much to be desired. First, I spilled a bunch when the cup came off my gun, so I didn't have quite as much as I needed to do a better job - especially on one of the cowl pieces which are white. So it's a little thin in one area when I ran out. It's an acrylic polyurethane and hard to "blend in" with an overcoat in that area. The paint is very expensive, and I decided not to buy anymore at this time. There's a little run, and a couple of small pieces have a pretty good "orange peel" effect due to the epoxy primer that I started out shooting with a cheap Harbor Freight gun that I hadn't used before. I quickly switched to my old standby Buffalo (Binks knock-off) gun. So, no, really it's not a very professional job, but it looks tolerable to me - I'm not very fussy in that regard. Painting outdoors, even with great conditions like I had, can be a little hard due to the light... there's nothing like good lighting from all angles!

[Flybyjim]

Looks good John.
I have learned over the years that not all things in life need to be perfect. White is the most difficult color to spray in my opinion. I am always amazed when I buy paint what the total of the bill is. I have a friend who has painted two planes with water base house paint with rollers, from 30 feet it looks good, not so much from 5 feet. So again perfection is in the builders mind of acceptance.

Jim

[jrevens]

Looks good John.
I have learned over the years that not all things in life need to be perfect. White is the most difficult color to spray in my opinion. I am always amazed when I buy paint what the total of the bill is. I have a friend who has painted two planes with water base house paint with rollers, from 30 feet it looks good, not so much from 5 feet. So again perfection is in the builders mind of acceptance.

Jim

How very true... thank you Jim!

Dick B - the comment about NASA was interesting. I didn't know that... thanks!

[n85ae]

White is the best of all colors to paint, because no matter how badly you
do it, in the bright sunlight it always looks perfect ... You can use a broom
to paint white, and the results will be good ...

Jeff



Thank you for that, Ross. Seriously, the painting leaves much to be desired. First, I spilled a bunch when the cup came off my gun, so I didn't have quite as much as I needed to do a better job - especially on one of the cowl pieces which are white. So it's a little thin in one area when I ran out. It's an acrylic polyurethane and hard to "blend in" with an overcoat in that area. The paint is very expensive, and I decided not to buy anymore at this time. There's a little run, and a couple of small pieces have a pretty good "orange peel" effect due to the epoxy primer that I started out shooting with a cheap Harbor Freight gun that I hadn't used before. I quickly switched to my old standby Buffalo (Binks knock-off) gun. So, no, really it's not a very professional job, but it looks tolerable to me - I'm not very fussy in that regard. Painting outdoors, even with great conditions like I had, can be a little hard due to the light... there's nothing like good lighting from all angles!

[jrevens]

I'm not much of a painter. I know that metal flake can be difficult. It was difficult to see what was going on with the white... lighting, it's all about the light. Maybe I should've used a broom!

I built a paint booth in my garage to do my first homebuilt almost 30 years ago.
I had fluorescent lights from every angle.

[Agfoxflyer]

JREvens, My rule of thumb after painting my Kitfox, is if you think you need 5 lights, use ten. Otherwise double it, can't have too many!

[jrevens]

I mounted a landing light in the air intake, where I believe I have seen them on a couple of other ones like mine (maybe even factory built?). I made it so it can be removed easily. Any comments or experience with one of these little Micro-Sun LED units in that location as far as blocking some of the air is concerned? I know that some builders have mounted these in a nicely made opening of their own. I thought of that but got too lazy.

[jrevens]

I'm playing with the so-called skylight angle on my 7SS that is bonded to the rear fuselage spar carry-through tube. On page 47 of Section E of my build manual there is a drawing of that angle with the bend on the longer leg conforming nicely with the surface of the fuselage tube. That leg of my angle is long enough to stick down lower than shown so that the bend doesn't touch the tube. I'm curious if anyone else has encountered this. I can deal with it, even making a new angle if I have to, or putting a second bend a little further up in it to get good contact with the tube. My butt ribs are located accurately. Any thoughts would be welcome.

[jiott]

I mounted my MicroSun LED landing light in the same spot you did about 2 years ago. I have noticed no apparent change in cooling of the engine before and after. I say leave it there; nice and simple and easy.

[jiott]

John, my skylight angle hangs down so that the bend doesn't quite touch the carry-thru tube. Its no problem. The Hysol and skylight screws hold it plenty securely.

[jrevens]

Ahh... thanks Jim and Lowell! It is so great to have this resource with guys like you both, sharing your experience. I'm glad to get the feedback about the light - I was starting to second guess the decision to put it there. Jim - my angle actually looks exactly like yours. Thank you! The way you cleaned up & sealed off the tail end of the butt rib area looks REALLY nice... about a hundred times better than what I've done there (which is nothing!).

[jrevens]

Been chuggin' away on the Fox since my wife's been doing a little better. I had a nice anodized aluminum data plate made from AeroGraphics in Loveland, Colorado. I didn't take too much time deciding how to attach it securely to the airframe, and decided that instead of clamping a backing plate to the tubing I'd just make an aluminum plate with a "leg" that I bonded to a rib in the tail.

[jrevens]

Here's my instrument panel... "old school" steam gauges for an old-fashioned guy, basic VFR. You will notice the A/P, GPS & ADS-B though. I could've had Dynon or pretty much whatever I wanted, but decided from the get-go that I wanted round "real" gauges. :rolleyes: I really liked the look of the little 1.25" UMA engine instruments - made in the USA, with "air-core" movements, 270 deg. sweep, etc. I had a ride in a Lear 24 many years ago, and it had an array of instruments that looked very similar to them, and they looked so cool and made an impression on my young mind. I like having all the important (to myself) stuff right in front of me. I had a strong overhead light in my garage, and everything looks pretty glarey in the pictures. The iFly 740 GPS is mounted with a Pro-Clip system tilting mount - comes on & off real easy and gave me a much closer to the panel mount than I could get with a RAM set-up.

[Paul Z]

I like the Placard “Don’t Do Nuthin’ Dumb”, I need to have a Placard made for my plane!

[Dave S]

Hey John,

Love the black krinkle finish...that is about as classic as you can get, like classic "steam gauges" (a remark which I resemble:D)

I have a little reminder, although more subtle than "don't do nuttin dumb" - but it is the same message. When I painted the cowl, I ended up with two little runs in the paint by the oil door that nobody notices but me.....thought about correcting it; but, no...decided to leave it as a reminder that nobody is perfect - see it every time I go to check the oil:o.

[jrevens]

Thank you all for the wonderful comments. I saw a "Don't Do Nuthin' Dumb!" sign at Oshkosh back in the '70s. I wouldn't want to show it to my old English teacher, but it tickled my fancy and I've had one on the panel of my Thorp T-18 for 26 years. I've occasionally forgotten to pay attention to it, but I'm gonna' try harder with the Kitfox! ;)

[dcsfoto]

data plates must be steel or stainless " fireproof"
CFR Part 45.11(a)

David Kelm
7SS 912Is

[jrevens]

Thanks David. Back in the day, data plates weren't required at all on the exterior of an airplane. I could be wrong, but I think somebody came up with that rule in the late '80s. Anyway, the reg. you reference doesn't specify "steel or stainless steel", just "fireproof". I wonder if aluminum is "fireproof" enough? The requirement for engines and many other parts uses the same wording under that same regulation, and I've seen aluminum data plates on many engines. AeroGraphics has these made for all kinds of aircraft - I'm curious now about what they would say. If my inspector doesn't like it, at least it will be easy to change. I appreciate the heads-up! :)

Just looked it up, and evidently data plates are not required on Experimental aircraft engines. I'm probably wrong about not needing external data plates "back in the day" also, but it seems like that rule came to my and other builder's attention around the time I stated. It was general practice, and I believe a rule, to have a more complete data plate mounted inside the airplane in a visible location with manufacturer's/builder's name, address, date of manufacture, engine info, etc., but then everybody had to install the external plates also. I guess I'll probably talk to AeroGraphics and see if they will make me one out of S.S. Anybody else have an aluminum plate?

[HighWing]

I have really enjoyed this most recent report and the comments. I too am a steam gauge kind of guy. For some reason, the classic look of the Kitfox demands a classic look everywhere. I do understand, though, the other point of view. Regarding data plates, as I recall, the plate needs to be permanently mounted to the airframe. In my experience, the vast majority are mounted on the removable panel under the horizontal stabilizer. Not in strict compliance with the regs, but never-the-less accepted by many if not all examiners over the years. Your mounting is definitely more in compliance than mine. With that in mind, I dont recall an after inspection discussion on a forum or email group talking about having to do the data plate install over sgain - this in 23 years.

Can't wait to see the project up close and personal.

[Dave S]

Hey John,

FWIW - it is true that a single regulation may be enforced differently by different folks sanctioned to apply such regulations.

The DAR I had (who was also an EAA tech counselor) was noted for being very thorough in his inspections - he was - we spent 13 hours in the hangar that day - A trait that I was genuinely looking for in a DAR. Anyway, I used a simple stainless steel piece, stamped the required data, and riveted through the skin with SS rivets which included a SS loop behind the fabric around, but not in contact with an airframe tube. My only sin was stamping <first name> <last name> on the plate while my registration was the other way around - that got caught on the pre AW review (I utilized two EAA tech counselors for two in process reviews and the final pre cert review). Anyway - with some careful drilling I managed to remove the SS rivets, fabricate a new plate and re-rivet it in place to agree with the registration format of <last name> <first name>.

In the end, I think person has to realize the only reason for this little exterior "fireproof" plate secured to the airframe is so someone can find out who it used to be in the event of a complete auger job terminating in a smoking pit - which admittedly has little utility for the actual occupants in that case. In our builder lives/daily lives/actual lives - all we want is to get our airworthiness certificate and have a safe plane - the existence of the plate has no observable effect on safety:rolleyes:. As I mentioned - there is going to be variation in enforcement from time to time - I suspect inspectors are just as succepible to being members of the human race as are pilots, builders and mechanics.:o

[avidflyer]

I believe I read somewhere that the data plate under the tail of the airplane came about because of the DEA and planes being used to haul illegal drugs. JImChuk

[jrevens]

I think you're right, Jim. Thanks!

[jiott]

I used the SS data plate that came with the EAA registration kit. By the way I highly recommend this kit fro EAA for about $5 I believe. It has all the forms and leads you step-by-step thru the whole process of gathering documents and submitting them to the FAA for your initial registration and application for AW inspection.

[Av8r3400]

Take your data plate to your local trophy shop for engraving. They will do a very neat job and make it look more professional that a hand drawn buzz pencil engraving. They did mine for $5.

I put a slight bend in mine and attached it directly to a horizontal tube at the base of the horizontal stabilizer. Looks nice and it is solid.

[jrevens]

Hey John,

FWIW - it is true that a single regulation may be enforced differently by different folks sanctioned to apply such regulations.

The DAR I had (who was also an EAA tech counselor) was noted for being very thorough in his inspections - he was - we spent 13 hours in the hangar that day - A trait that I was genuinely looking for in a DAR. Anyway, I used a simple stainless steel piece, stamped the required data, and riveted through the skin with SS rivets which included a SS loop behind the fabric around, but not in contact with an airframe tube. My only sin was stamping <first name> <last name> on the plate while my registration was the other way around - that got caught on the pre AW review (I utilized two EAA tech counselors for two in process reviews and the final pre cert review). Anyway - with some careful drilling I managed to remove the SS rivets, fabricate a new plate and re-rivet it in place to agree with the registration format of <last name> <first name>.

In the end, I think person has to realize the only reason for this little exterior "fireproof" plate secured to the airframe is so someone can find out who it used to be in the event of a complete auger job terminating in a smoking pit - which admittedly has little utility for the actual occupants in that case. In our builder lives/daily lives/actual lives - all we want is to get our airworthiness certificate and have a safe plane - the existence of the plate has no observable effect on safety:rolleyes:. As I mentioned - there is going to be variation in enforcement from time to time - I suspect inspectors are just as succepible to being members of the human race as are pilots, builders and mechanics.:o

Thank you for the excellent comments, as always Dave. The result of this discussion is that I'm now sure that my plate doesn't meet the requirements in a couple of ways. I believe that why I got confused was because my first homebuilt has the "common" S.S. data plate that includes all of the detailed info mentioned, mounted inside the cockpit in plain sight. Then the exterior plate rule came out and I made & mounted the abbreviated version there. My understanding now is that if an airplane was manufactured before a certain date in 1988 that the abbreviated version (like I put on my Kitfox) then needed to be installed on the exterior of the plane. Sooo... I'm going to get the S.S. plate that I've had from Aircraft Spruce engraved with all the more detailed information and will install that in place of what I have now. Thanks again to all of you!

[jrevens]

OK, just to further clarify, I'm going to follow this advice from the EAA -
https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/aviation-communities-and-interests/homebuilt-aircraft-and-homebuilt-aircraft-kits/frequently-asked-questions/data-plate

So I'll make a new S.S. plate with my name (last name first, as registered), model , and serial number. That should do it - don't need anything more. Thanks again to all for getting me on the right path.

[jrevens]

I made a removable tailpipe "stinger" with with a little bend in the end. I'd been planning to do that since the first time I paid attention to the way the new ones are hangin' straight down. It just appeals to my eye a little more. Not enough bend to make it harder removing or installing the lower cowl.

[efwd]

Why are mufflers and the like on airplanes held together with springs?
Eddie

[jrevens]

It's just one way to secure two pieces of pipe at a male/female slip joint. Saddles & links, pins, and various other ways are also used. The springs do apply constant tension to the joint, pulling it together, as well as potentially allowing limited movement from expansion and contraction if necessary. I have a good fit on the tailpipe, and I've secured it with a short s.s. pin held in place with a s.s. hose clamp. The pipe is made of 321 stainless, the same as the rest of the system.

[Floog]

Your tail pipe is a nice improvement, John! It just looks FINISHED. A cautionary note to builders: leave plenty of room around the tail pipe where it exits the cowl. Unbeknownst to me, engine torque/vibration was causing contact between the two. Over time (+\-500 hrs) I discovered a crack in the muffler end cap :(
Shortening the tail pipe long ago didn't arrest that problem. Fortunately, my neighbor is an excellent welder. All good for the last 500 hours 😄

[jrevens]

If the tail pipe was angled like that on Guy Buchanan's beautiful bird it would look really great, but I think there would be a problem with removing & installing the current cowl design and possibly with the position of the radiator & oil cooler also. I did try to duplicate the original distance from the bottom of the cowl. I'm leery of exhaust gas impingement on a fabric belly skin especially. I think this will work fine. Thanks for the nice comments!

[jrevens]

Thanks, Carl. I think it's going to look ok to me... sort of follows the rest of my build - "refined rough".

On the subject of data plates, someone posted a link to the following site on one of the EAA forums -

https://www.mydogtag.com/industrial-nameplate#

These look ideal to me. I'm already having a new one engraved now, but I would've used one of these if I had known about them. The price is very reasonable also... less than I'm paying my local engraving shop to do mine, and I furnished the plate.

[SSFoxBuilder]

FWIW, I also gave my gear a "scotchbrite" look but then had it clear anodized for corrosion protection (very reasonable price point). Without some preventative you may encounter oxidation in the future. I've also read a couple good coats of wax might help as well.

[jmodguy]

Thanks for the link on the nameplate. Have it bookmarked for when the time comes.
Looking real nice John. Hope you get around to flying soon!

[jrevens]

FWIW, I also gave my gear a "scotchbrite" look but then had it clear anodized for corrosion protection (very reasonable price point). Without some preventative you may encounter oxidation in the future. I've also read a couple good coats of wax might help as well.

Thanks Dustin. I will use a good wax on it. I think anodizing is great. I'd like to make a few comments about anodizing, FWIW. Clear anodizing is done with a sulfuric acid process. There were studies done years ago that indicated that type of anodizing decreased fatigue resistance of aluminum to a measurable degree. Cracks tend to propagate from the hard surface more easily. That is the reason that most "aircraft" anodizing that is done (for instance on propeller blades) is with the chromic acid process, which produces a characteristically silver/gray finish. When building my first plane, I studied the issue and built my own set-up to chromic acid anodize everything I could fit into the tank. The process utilizes a variable DC power supply, so I used a variac (variable transformer) and a full-wave bridge to do it. All that being said, I doubt that there is much likelihood of you having any problems - it's sure not a propeller with many thousands of flexing cycles every time you run the engine. I just think that people should be aware of the issues, just like baking plated 4130 parts for hydrogen embrittlement.

[jiott]

Several folks have had their Grove gear powdercoated. Looks good and seems to be durable.

[PapuaPilot]

I primed mine and painted it with a urethane paint. It is holding up very well and only has a couple small nicks in it.

[jrevens]

Several folks have had their Grove gear powdercoated. Looks good and seems to be durable.

There are potential pitfalls with powder coating of these structures also. These gear are a 7075 alloy, probably something like a T-6... I'm not sure exactly what Grove uses. In general, there is a degradation of static strength (yield & tensile strengths) as well as degradation of cracking resistance when it is exposed to elevated temperatures, a percentage of which remains when the material is returned to "normal" temperature. If the material has been shot-peened for strength that will be affected too. Effects can occur at lower temperatures than you might think - probably somewhere around 250 deg. F, and certainly at 350 deg. and higher, which some powder coating processes use. I think the Grove gear are probably over-designed for airplanes like ours (maybe depending on how much rough back-country flying you do!), so I wouldn't necessarily be too worried about it, but it would be good to ask the powder coating firm what temperature they will use. The higher the temperature & the longer the exposure, the more potential degradation of strength there is. This all comes from some "ancient history" part of my brain, so I'm sure if someone was inclined to research it, what I've stated could be confirmed, or not.

[jrevens]

I primed mine and painted it with a urethane paint. It is holding up very well and only has a couple small nicks in it.

Your airplane is really beautiful, Phil! Urethane paint is good, IMHO.

[Flybyjim]

Interesting read guys, thanks for sharing your knowledge. One can't go wrong with painting as far as not changing the integrity of the metals but powder coating does seem to hold up well. It's also nice to drop off the piece and pick it up the next day and it's done! I have only had some small parts powder coated on other projects (planes, coke coolers, 1937 Sinclair gas pumps) as I do like to paint, painting is easy, it is all the prep and clean up that takes most of the time.

[rv9ralph]

John, here is the reference to the heat used in powder coating affecting the integrity of the metal. In AC 43-13.1B, in the section on metals and heat treating. There is a reference to not raising the temperature of heat treated aluminum above the temperature of boiling water (212 degrees F). It applies to certain alloys, however, why do anything that may weaken the integregrity of vital structural parts.
Also, in reference to anodizing, there was an article last year in the November 2016 Kitplanes. The subject aircraft was an award winning RotorWay that had suffered a failure of a critical control tube. The tube was anodized for cosmetic purposes and had failed within the first 6 months it was put in service. Post-mortem on the part revealed stress fractures on the anodized surface that promoted the complete failure of the piece.

Ralph

[jrevens]

John, here is the reference to the heat used in powder coating affecting the integrity of the metal. In AC 43-13.1B, in the section on metals and heat treating. There is a reference to not raising the temperature of heat treated aluminum above the temperature of boiling water (212 degrees F). It applies to certain alloys, however, why do anything that may weaken the integregrity of vital structural parts.
Also, in reference to anodizing, there was an article last year in the November 2016 Kitplanes. The subject aircraft was an award winning RotorWay that had suffered a failure of a critical control tube. The tube was anodized for cosmetic purposes and had failed within the first 6 months it was put in service. Post-mortem on the part revealed stress fractures on the anodized surface that promoted the complete failure of the piece.

Ralph

Thanks for verifying my thoughts, Ralph.

[SSFoxBuilder]

Great info on the anodizing! When it came time for our gear, I simply figured that if Grove recommended anodizing for corrosion preventative for their landing gear then it should be safe. They did recommend a specific process, but I cannot recall what that was. Took a few calls in the Portland area to locate an anodizer who could comply with what Grove recommended.

[David47]

Hi Guys, just chiming in an interesting discussion regarding anodizing aluminium. Sulphuric acid anodiing is the most detrimental to fatigue life. We stopped calling out Sulphuric acid on anodised parts long time ago because of this and use less aggressive processes such as Chromic,Acetic etc. I've posted (hopefully) an internet address for an interesting article that helps to explain some of this.

dspace.dsto.defence.gov.au/dspace/bitstream/dsto/10291/.../DSTO-TN-1180%20PR.p...

If you paste into the browser hopefully you'll get access to the .pdf article. If not, let me know and I'll try again.

It's released for public access so all good.

[jrevens]

"Smoke" tested my panel today, and all the smoke stayed in, so that's a good sign. Fun to see things light up & come alive. Now it's time to "permanently" install the boot cowl. I also finished a few little details on the lower cowl piece. I fabricated some short extensions of the radiator air scoop out of 1/16" reinforced silicone rubber that I had. This gives a little better/closer match-up with the front surfaces of the radiator and oil cooler, and hopefully less air loss, while still being easy to remove and install the lower cowl.

[jrevens]

These pics are for Carl ("Cherrybark") -

This is basically how I did these panels Carl. I've seen many others done a little differently that looked very nice. As I mentioned on your thread, I used "Tric-nuts" on the 4 little steel tabs (along with SS machine screws). In retrospect, the Tinnerman clip nuts would have been just as good or better to use there also. I "formed" the edges of the panels with a slotted wood stick to make it fit a little nicer against the fabric.

[Cherrybark]

John, could you describe the slotted stick and how you formed the edges. I assume you rolled the edges 180 degrees but I can't picture the process or what the stick would look like.

[jrevens]

The edges aren't rolled 180 deg., Carl. They've just got a little bit of bend towards the surface of the skin in them. I just take a piece of wood - hardwood is good, but pine might work, depending on the thickness and type of metal you are trying to bend - maybe something like 3/4" x 3/4" x 6" or so for this particular job. I saw a thin slot in the face of one end to a depth of maybe 1/4" or 3/8" ( I only wanted to put a little bent "lip" all around the panels to get a little better/tighter fit with the surface of the airframe). I slightly round & smooth the edges of the slot, and it should be a loose fit with the thickness of the metal. Sometimes the width of a hacksaw blade is sufficient and sometimes a little wider might be needed. Put the edge of the metal in the slot and draw the stick along the edge while simultaneously applying a slight amount of "bend" to form the metal. Sometimes a little bit of lubricant, like maybe candle wax helps. You just go over it like that, maybe multiple times (a little bit of bend at a time) until it's what you want. You can go right around corners if the radius isn't too small. Smoothing the edges of the metal first with a file &/or 320 or 400 grit sandcloth is a good idea. It's just a poor man's edge-rolling tool. Practice on a piece of scrap first.

[N213RV]

Cleaveland Tool also makes a nice tool for this. I used it on every aluminum skin on my RV-4 and RV-10. If you know anyone building an RV, maybe they have one you can borrow.

http://www.cleavelandtool.com/mobile/Edge-Forming-Tool/productinfo/EF60/#.WO4P74FMGaM

[Cherrybark]

YouTube has a demonstration of the edge rolling tool Mike posted. Shows the slight edge bend that makes aluminum plates match so neatly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbAEuFbFaco

[PapuaPilot]

That is a handy tool.

Another simple way is to insert the edges of your piece in a sheet metal brake about 3/16" - 1/4" and give it the slightest bend.

[efwd]

Edge rolling tool from AS&S is what I used. Half the price of the above but less precise. One thing about mine that is not ideal is that the thinner aluminum can actually slip a little bit behind the wheel since the wheel is not tight up against the base. If you look very close you can see what is a reverse bend in the opposite direction that is intended. Its very faint and probably wont be evident when paint is applied. If I had know Of John's technique I would have used it but I already owned my tool.
Eddie

[jiott]

I found that the slight edge bend was very necessary on the bottom and bottom rear angle to get a nice fit with the fabric. The front and top edges seemed to mate up with the fabric quite nicely without any bend.

[jrevens]

Thought I'd show where I added a panel to give me easy access to some of the components that I mounted on a shelf on the passenger side. With the door open and the glare shield removed, I should be able to see and service these items easily - capacitor, rectifier/regulator, OV relay, power busses, etc.

[jrevens]

I added some reflective/insulated heat-shield material directly under the muffler on the lower cowl. Very light and it conformed nicely to limited curves. It may or may not be useful to protect the fiberglass in that area, but it seemed a good idea to me.

[Dave S]

John,

I like the access panel. I know others have chosen to use screws rather than rivets on the boot cowl - I used rivets per the construction manual so the boot cowl is pretty much permanent.

I might have to add a panel like you have :)

[jrevens]

So... it was a really big surprise to me when Kitfox unveiled the new logo, which I like very much. I had found and independently paid a small royalty to the artist to use the very same "fox" artwork (but I used the vertical version instead of horizontal... I have the .eps files for both), which I have had on the tail of my airplane for several months now. "Who'd of thunk it?" I thought I would have something a little unique when I was done. The way I used it is very simple and plain, and not nearly as cool as the new logo, but I'm still happy with it. John McBean and I have talked, and have agreed that "great minds think alike". ;)

[DesertFox4]

It looks great John.:)
Good choice.
Understated and very modern.
Our little Kitfox has grown up.

P.S. your fabric work looks great.

[David47]

Man that looks good. Very nice John, very contemporary, very classy. As Steve says, very understated. Wonder if Kitfox have their logo in about the same size. Would really like to put that on an Aus SS7.

[DesertFox4]

David, give them a little time and you will see the new logo incorporated into many of the things asked for in this thread. As with the original Fox logo that brought this little airplane from 1984 until now, this one will take our beloved Fox well into the future.

[David47]

Steve, I reckon I'll be ready for it about 9 months from now, all things going well. When it's on the shelf, I'm in.

[efwd]

Well, that just looks sweet. I am looking forward to seeing how that is done on the fabric of the seat cushion. Nice job on the graphic research John. I really would not have thought of doing that myself.
Eddie

[jrevens]

Just a quick comment - you might be able to see in my side view drawing that the curvature where the vertical fin meets the top of the fuselage is a little non-standard. My fuselage was built before the factory was installing the full length razorback tube, terminating at a plate just before the trailing edge of the turtle deck. I wanted my comm antenna to be a little farther away from the turtle deck, but I wanted a little bit of a razorback effect, so I brought it approximately to the point shown in that drawing. I also installed a matching handle on the other side of the fuselage.

[jrevens]

Anybody know what part # 52930.000 is used for? It is a strip of 2024-T3 aluminum, .016" x 1.25" x 40". It came with my "Fuselage Kit". I haven't gotten a reply from the factory yet, but I know I will.

[Cherrybark]

My kit was delivered 7/16.

Looked through the inventory sheets but did not find item 52930.

There is a 52929 that is the three 36" L's that become the mounting strips for the inspection plate near the horizontal stabilizer.

My wing tip mounting strips were 22913

[efwd]

Mine's like Carl's.
Eddie

[jrevens]

Thanks to you all... I have to guess that it is just another odd "part" that didn't really belong with my kit. I've had a couple of those.

Update report... I was able to locate a hangar to rent at one of our local airports (KEIK). I had been looking for something that wasn't too far from home for quite awhile. The waiting list at my home field (KBJC) is about a mile long... I don't think I'll live long enough to get to the number one spot on that one. So, it looks like I'll be moving my project sometime in October. I wish it would fit in with my Thorp T-18, but there's not enough room. I'm REALLY looking forward to flying this thing, and I've been thinking it would be prudent to get a check-out with Paul L. in Idaho, so I'll try to arrange that sometime soon too. :)

[bumsteer]

John

On my Series 5 P/N 52930.000 is a junction strip used when fitting the windshield. Goes on the rear of the windshield.

Rick

[jrevens]

Thanks, Rick. I guess it must have been a left over part that was just included in my kit inadvertently. There's nothing shown about it at all in my build manual. I never did get a reply from the factory.

[bumsteer]

From looking at the 7 manual, the windshield & skylight are one piece. On the 5 they are 2 separate pieces joined together using the junction strip which is what you have.

Rick

[jrevens]

Ahh!... mystery solved. Thank you, Rick.

[jdmcbean]

Thanks, Rick. I guess it must have been a left over part that was just included in my kit inadvertently. There's nothing shown about it at all in my build manual. I never did get a reply from the factory.

John,
I went back and checked email.. did not receive an email from you to respond to or a voice message..
If I remember correctly that part is the Junction strip that was used on the previous windshield/skylight section. It was used on the Series 5 aircraft and the part had continued to carry over on the parts lists even though it was no longer used.

[jrevens]

Thanks, John. It wasn't important, but it was just bugging me. BTW, it was email sent to Debra on 9/12. My ISP shows it was delivered. But again, it wasn't important or I would've been on the phone.

[Cherrybark]

John,

Every time I visit your thread, the photo of your fabric work and the new Kitfox logo catches my eye. So very clean!

This time I noticed the inspection ring. Did you attach the inspection rings with anything other than the factory recommended Super Glue?

[jrevens]

Carl,
Thanks. Yes, I used a medium viscosity super glue from the hobby shop. Roughed up the plastic rings first, of course. It worked well.

[Esser]

Hey John, what brand is that "wrinkle finish" on your panel? How thick is the build up? Do you think it would look good to engrave right through it?

[jrevens]

I used VHT brand on my panel, Josh. Unfortunately, I think it probably wouldn't work well, and would chip. It's hard to say for sure. I believe that a powder-coated finish like Lowell mentioned might work better because it would probably be tougher... just an educated guess. A finer wrinkle finish would be better for that than a coarser one. You can control that by varying the thickness of the wet coat(s). Thinner = finer. Mine varies a little, but it is what I might call a "medium" wrinkle.

[jrevens]

Getting towards the end now. I've finished installation of windshield and turtledeck cover, although some modification of turtledeck to come after wings are installed. I'll be moving it to the hangar in about a week and will do that then. I used some gray soft silicone rubber foam tape for the windshield/skylight seal. I also used nutplates on butt ribs and rear attach angle.

[jrevens]

Recent talk about glare shield overhang on another thread... I just finished my glare shield and left a 1" overhang, perhaps contoured a little differently than most. I found a nice Naugahyde material at the fabric store - automotive grade, with low flammability and high UV rating, plus it doesn't seem to have the typical vinyl "smell". A little 303 protectant every so often and it should last "forever".

[efwd]

That looks great John. I love how you cut the holes for the hardware through the foam. I wish I had known that trick back when I did the door and acrylic install. I will certainly be doing that this time. did you have to sharpen the edge of the tube to get it to actually cut or was it thin enough wall to do the job?
Eddie

[jrevens]

I sharpened the end of the tube, Eddie. It doesn't take much. I was thinking today that one of those cheap little tools for punching holes in plastic irrigation drip system tubing might work well for that too. Actually just poking a hole with an awl is good, and you get a little more potential sealing around the screw to help prevent water entering that way.

[southwind32]

What's the tool in the third picture, looks like some kind of hole finder?
Thanks PS. Beautiful Job you're doing.

[jrevens]

Yes, it's a hole finder/ duplicator strap, homemade. I made several - that one specifically to locate the holes in the plexiglas of the windshield/skylight. I did those holes a little "backward", laying out and drilling them in the butt ribs and the rear angle first, installing nut plates, then locating them on the plexi. Thank you for the compliment!

[jrevens]

Happy day today... moved my bird to the airport!

[jrevens]

Thanks you guys... it's the first time my truck's been in the garage in a few years, and Winter's coming. :D

[rosslr]

It looks good John - very nice looking plane. Now you are getting close - do you plan flying before winter?

Congratulations on a great milestone - I assume the trip to the airport went without any problems?

cheers

ross

[efwd]

Thats awesome John! Look at all that room you have now. I really like the all white paint job. Sometimes I wish I would have done that.
Eddie

[Dave S]

John,

Great move! :) Good to see the plane survived the road trip.

Seeing my friends get there causes me to relive the day our plane went to the airport....a race to avoid the 8" of snow and roadsalt which came the next morning. Without a doubt the road trip on the trailer was the most concerning part of the whole airplane business...I did get a friend with the biggest urban assault vehicle I could find to run interference for me on the freeway:eek:.

Almost forgot to ask...what kind of tubing/hose do you have connecting the brake caliper to the gear leg?

[jrevens]

Thanks to everyone. I've got to install & paint the lift strut fairings, do the wing root front cuffs, the turtle deck "strakes", some planned modifications to the turtledeck cover, and install the prop/spinner. Then I've got to get up and get a check-out with Stick and Rudder. Those are the only things I've got left to do before inspection/first flight. We generally have lots of good flying weather here during the winter, so I should hopefully get some hours on it this year, but not before the winter.

Dave - those brake lines are -3 Teflon-lined, braided stainless steel.

[jrevens]

That's a great looking trailer for the job...


It is a great trailer... tilting, winch, etc. Graciously provided by a good friend, Jim. The job was real easy, with him, my son Matt and me. About a 40 minute drive with early rush-hour traffic.

[ken nougaret]

Looks great John! You may have said in a previous post, but did you get that Fox decal on the tail from Kitfoxaircraft?

[jrevens]

Hi Ken,
I'm not too sure if you're pulling my leg a little... but I'm gonna' tell the story again just in case you're not.
No, I searched for something different for about a year, when I found this design & paid a small royalty to the artist to legally use the copyrighted image on my airplane. I had the decals made for me by AeroGraphics, using the file that I got from Shutterstock. I was VERY surprised when Kitfox announced their new logo, as I had this on the airplane for at least a couple of month's before that, not really showing anyone and thinking I would really have something a little different and unique. Mine is the vertical version of the same artwork that Kitfox is using, oriented horizontally. Their designer added color of course. I actually had the files for both versions. Anyway, John McBean and I agreed that great minds think alike. ;)

[jrevens]

John, I'm saving you a spot next to me at Oshkosh...

Thanks, Larry! It would be an honor to park with you (I think I said that once to a girl I knew... worded a little differently of course :D). I'm sure planning on being there, but I'll probably park in homebuilt camping with my bud, Stan Specht, who along with his Kitfox (Columbine) is one of the most important reasons I decided to build this airplane. Anyway, I think you're trying to tell me to be there, and that's definitely on my agenda - I love Oshkosh!

Thanks again to everyone for the comments... this group is such a powerful morale booster!

[ken nougaret]

Thanks John. No i forgot the story. Like John McBean told me once, i got a great memory its just short.

[southwind32]

Maybe I missed it, but any chance you could post a pic of your panel, and describe what radios you installed.

Thanks
Brian

[jrevens]

Hi Brian,
I’ve posted many, but probably my #222 posting shows most everything... there have been just a couple of minor changes since then.
It’s old-school round gauges, Garmin GTR 200 comm & GTX 327 transponder, iFly 740 GPS, uAvionix ads-b in & out, Tru Trak single axis autopilot, etc.

[rosslr]

Ben - John has a stripe! that is highly ornate compared to yours!!!

cheers

r

[southwind32]

Hi Brian,
I’ve posted many, but probably my #222 posting shows most everything... there have been just a couple of minor changes since then.
It’s old-school round gauges, Garmin GTR 200 comm & GTX 327 transponder, iFly 740 GPS, uAvionix ads-b in & out, Tru Trak single axis autopilot, etc.

Found the pics, thanks, I like that panel, I haven't decided if I'm going that route or a single glass screen. Will depend on the cost. When I start adding up the cost of steam gauges and engine instruments and GPS, Glass looks as cheap............haven't written down hard numbers yet, do due a side by side comparison. Maybe someone else has, and can share that info. Thanks again.
Brian

[jrevens]

I did do a quick & dirty compilation of the expense but I didn’t save the numbers. At the time it was actually a little cheaper than all-glass for me - considerably cheaper compared to some brands, but I didn’t choose based on price... it was strictly just what I wanted. There are some old-fashioned somewhat philosophical reasons why I did it that way... very personal, and wouldn’t make alot of common sense to many builders. Life is short... try to do whatever makes you happy.

[HighWing]

...it was strictly just what I wanted. There are some old-fashioned somewhat philosophical reasons why I did it that way... very personal, and wouldn’t make alot of common sense to many builders. Life is short... try to do whatever makes you happy.

My thinking exactly. But for me, I guess, largely due to the date of the first entry in my Pilot Log Book dated 3/2/71 - old habits and lots of "muscle memory" over the years.

[jrevens]

My thinking exactly. But for me, I guess, largely due to the date of the first entry in my Pilot Log Book dated 3/2/71 - old habits and lots of "muscle memory" over the years.
Mine is early '70's also, Lowell. I agree that this is probably part of it for me too.

[jrevens]

I finally got my lift struts done and painted. Not much to do now... just some mods to the turtledeck cover after I mount the wings. Gosh it feels good to see the end approaching. I carefully cut and fitted the fairings to minimize the amount of fill necessary at the junction. I'm sure the look isn't everyone's cup of tea, but it suits me. The paint is my usual mediocre, amateur job... a definite 10 footer.

[efwd]

pretty much looks like mine. Only diff is that I laid in Super Fill on that joint between the leading and trailing fairings, I mean more super fill than yours. Looks good to me. What kind of paint are you applying John? Did you use primer as well?
Eddie

[Floog]

Looks great, John. Those fairings are a LOT of work. Just curious, how did you deal with the gap on the trailing edge for the relief cut?

Incidentally, I had to put drain holes in the vicinity of the strut intersection to let water out. Weather gets in at the jury strut brackets and collects inside the fairing.

Thanks for all your posts!

[jrevens]

pretty much looks like mine. Only diff is that I laid in Super Fill on that joint between the leading and trailing fairings, I mean more super fill than yours. Looks good to me. What kind of paint are you applying John? Did you use primer as well?
Eddie

I did use primer, Eddie. The paint is PPG Concept DDC acrylic urethane.

[jrevens]

Looks great, John. Those fairings are a LOT of work. Just curious, how did you deal with the gap on the trailing edge for the relief cut?

Incidentally, I had to put drain holes in the vicinity of the strut intersection to let water out. Weather gets in at the jury strut brackets and collects inside the fairing.

Thanks for all your posts!

I used a piece of balsa wood, tapered from 1” down to a point, Doug. Sealed it against moisture before bonding it in place with Hysol. I formed a drain hole at the bottom, which you can probably see in the picture. I plan to seal around the jury strut brackets with white silicone sealer after installation. BTW, I also made new brackets out of S.S. Instead of the factory supplied aluminum ones. The reason for that is a long story.