Drivers license - Third Class Medical Proposal

[Av8r3400]

Since the FAA has sat on their butts hoping this would go away, some courageous lawmakers have proposed a new law basically eliminating the third class medical for VFR.

AOPA article:



Driver's license medical for six-seat aircraft?

After nearly two years of FAA inaction on the AOPA/EAA third-class medical petition, Congress has taken matters into its own hands, offering up legislation that would vastly expand the number of pilots who could fly without going through the expensive and time-consuming third-class medical certification process. Reps. Todd Rokita (R-Ind.), a member of the House General Aviation Caucus, and GA Caucus Co-Chair Sam Graves (R-Mo.) on Dec. 11 introduced the General Aviation Pilot Protection Act. The legislation would dramatically expand the parameters for flying under the driver's license medical standard. Rokita and Graves are both AOPA members and active pilots.

"We have waited far too long for the FAA to expand the third-class medical exemption to more pilots and more aircraft," said AOPA President Mark Baker. "Congressmen Rokita and Graves stepped forward to take decisive action in the best interests of general aviation when the FAA refused to act. We appreciate their outstanding leadership on this issue and look forward to seeing this bill move forward."

The General Aviation Pilot Protection Act would allow pilots to use the driver's license medical standard for noncommercial VFR flights in aircraft weighing up to 6,000 pounds with no more than six seats. That includes virtually all single-engine airplanes with six or fewer seats, including Beech Bonanzas, as well as many light twins like the Piper Aztec, Beech Baron 55 and 58, and Cessna 310. By way of comparison, most large SUVs on the roads today weigh more than 6,000 pounds and can carry six to seven passengers, making them larger than the aircraft that would be operated with proof of a valid driver's license under this new bill.

Pilots would be allowed to carry up to five passengers, fly at altitudes below 14,000 feet msl, and fly no faster than 250 knots. The act also would require the FAA to report on the safety consequences of the new rule after five years.

"As a pilot, I am pleased to introduce this important legislation with my colleagues and fellow pilots," said Rokita. "This bill eliminates a duplicative and therefore unnecessary medical certification regulation that drives up costs for pilots and prevents the general aviation industry from fulfilling its economic potential."

"For many recreational pilots, the FAA's third class medical certification process is nothing more than a bureaucratic hoop to jump through," said Graves. "It discourages new pilots and does not truly improve safety. As a pilot, I have gone through this process several times. However, like all pilots, I am responsible for determining whether I am medically fit to fly during the time between my mandated medical certifications. Expanding the current exemption makes sense and will promote greater recreational aviation activity across the U.S. without an impact on safety."

In addition to Rokita and Graves, the bill was co-sponsored by Reps. Collin Peterson (D-Minn.), Bill Flores (R-Texas), Richard Hanna (R-N.Y.), and Mike Pompeo (R-Kan.). All four co-sponsors are members of the GA Caucus.

The legislative action comes after the FAA has repeatedly declined to rule on a March 2012 petition filed by AOPA and EAA. That petition asked the FAA to expand the driver's license medical standard already used by sport pilots for nearly a decade. Under the petition, pilots would be able to operate noncommercial VFR flights in single-engine aircraft with 180 horsepower or less, four or fewer seats, fixed gear, and a maximum of one passenger. To participate, pilots would need a valid driver's license and would be required to take recurrent safety training to help them accurately assess their fitness to fly.

More than 16,000 overwhelmingly favorable comments were filed during the public comment period on the petition. But despite strong support from the aviation community and solid evidence that the exemption would maintain or improve safety, the FAA failed to act, so AOPA turned to supporters in Congress for help.

Building support for the General Aviation Pilot Protection Act will be critical to its passage, and AOPA will be calling on members to show their support in January after Congress returns from recess. Look for details about how you can help in upcoming issues of AOPA ePilot and on AOPA.org.



http://www.aopa.org/-/media/Files/AOPA/Home/News/All%20News/2013/December/ROKITA_024_xml.pdf

[N981MS]

You can find your representative and let then know here:

http://www.house.gov/representatives/find/


Feel free to copy, paste, and email the statement below to your representatives.

Reps. Todd Rokita (R-Ind.), a member of the House General Aviation Caucus, and GA Caucus Co-Chair Sam Graves (R-Mo.) on Dec. 11 introduced the General Aviation Pilot Protection Act. (http://www.aopa.org/-/media/Files/AOPA/Home/News/All%20News/2013/December/ROKITA_024_xml.pdf)

I am in favor of the General Aviation Pilot Protection Act (http://www.aopa.org/-/media/Files/AOPA/Home/News/All%20News/2013/December/ROKITA_024_xml.pdf) as it will improve participation in general aviation and remove burdens on pilots that I believe do not provide any proven safety benefit.

[Agfoxflyer]

Just sent off to my Representative a letter asking for support. My medical is coming up so guess I'll have get another one. Hopefully last one

[kauaicuda]

Expensive and time consuming Class III medical? Uh.... 1 hour and $120? or is this geared more towards folks who are struggling with medical conditions to get the Class III?

[Av8r3400]

Think about this:

Go to the hospital for chest pains that turn out to be that Tai food you had for lunch. (Happened to an marathon runner/pilot friend of mine) Now he needs to do annual stress test with full EKG to maintain his Class III.

How about your love for bacon? All of a sudden you are on new cholesterol meds that you didn't check to see were on the 1950's tech-level approved list. Oops.

How about winning the battle with cancer?

Now see how much that $120 Class III medical costs.

I could go on and on. This isn't just an old person's problem. There are a million pitfalls that can make a Class III horribly expensive to maintain. It's an outdated, unnecessary, government boondoggle that needs to go away.

[jamesmil]

just emailed my rep, in support. for me it's not about the time or the money for the third class medical it is about the about the time and money and the threat of emergency revocation spent to keep my medical after listing a blood pressure maintenance med. on the medical form. makes me wonder if pilots with a 1st class who depend on there medical to keep there jobs list every thing they are taking.

[kauaicuda]

Point taken. I guess I was just surprised how easy I passed the class 3, guess I took it for granted.

[mr bill]

I had no trouble when I was younger. Now however, bypass surgery 20 years ago and every year a stress test, blood test, Cardiologist recommendation and wait for 3 to 5 months every year. By the way, the 12 month certification period begins when you submit the paper work, not the day they issue your medical. I sold my Skyhawk and am looking forward to flying the Kitfox (this spring I hope).

[SkyPirate]

I hear you Mr Bill,..I have new parts through out my body ..some made of plastic some made of steel ,,if you get lost in Nevada I could strip down and you could use the scars as a map and have 4 different routes to get to NY lol luckily I never failed a physical ,,and luckily my model 5 is an LSA :)
but if by chance this ruling takes hold,..I know of a 4 place tail dragger that screams at me everytime I walk by it's hangar :)

[SkySteve]

I sent the letter, too. Can you imagine a 6,000# Kitfox with a 180hp engine hanging on the front!:eek:

[Av8r3400]

How about just being able to adjust your Electrically Ground Adjustable Ivo prop while under way? :rolleyes:

[SkySteve]

Yes. That would be good, too.

[RobS]

I sent mine (via email) yesterday and would hope everyone on this forum sends one too.

[mr bill]

Careful what you wish for. If a person only needs a drivers license to fly, what will happen to LSA, what will our planes be worth on the market?

[SkyPirate]

you still need pilot certificate Mr Bill ..LSA or Private :)

[mr bill]

If a drivers license is adequate, many of the potential LSA pilots would stay with Cessna or Piper.

[SkyPirate]

maybe,.. but if they have had a taste of the lesser operational costs and being able to do some maintenance without an A&P certificate,... my 5 at cruise burns 3.4 gal an hour,..even a 150 cant beat that :)

[RobS]

I have my PPL and want to go experimental light sport, but still have the option of renting something bigger should the need arise. I'd be happy if I could do that without having to maintain my Third Class, which I know at some point in the near future will be more difficult to maintain.

[SkyPirate]

the recent " stirring of the pot" so to speak might be a tactic to get the FAA to approve the original proposal quicker,..since the representatives have all joined forces with this new look at the third class/ auto license limits,.. it's like anything else that's on a table for sale? option? etc..push comes to shove until someone gives? or counters :)

[SkyPirate]

You'd like the LSA RobS up your way all the places to fly to and land ,..when I was hauling houses all over Maine NH etc basically the north east,..if I came across a place that looked good for a camping trip I'd stop and get permission if I could,.. to land my model 2 kitfox there and spend the week end ,.I couldn't do that in a 172 :)

[RobS]

And that's exactly why I sold my 172 this summer Chase!

I don't disagree with Mr. Bill that the proposed rule change will prop up certified aircraft values and possibly lessen demand for LSAs - I had hoped the FAA would have adopted the proposed LSA expansion by now as it would have increased the sale value of my 172. And yes, this will likely slow SLSA sales, but they've always been anemic anyway - because who can afford the average SLSA?!? So, in my opinion this is a winner, no matter how I look at it.

[Av8r3400]

More movement on this. The senate has now introduced a bill following the house's bill...

Link (http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Senate-Acts-On-Third-Class-Medical-Exemption221581-1.html)

[N981MS]

EAA has made it really easy for us. It took me maybe 5 minutes. Here is a direct link.

http://govt.eaa.org/14781/support-general-aviation-pilot-protection-act/

Electronically sign the petition and enter your zip code. It will offer you the opportunity to send letters to your Senators and Congressman based on your zip code.

Petition and 3 letters took 5 minutes. You may have contacted your Congressman before but now the Senate has a bill.

If you like this initiative, do it now.

[Av8r3400]

Petition signed and emails sent. Thanks for the links, 981MS. :)

[dginok]

Done. Thank you

[Av8r3400]

Same here! Thanks Greg Trying to keep this at the top of the page - or maybe it could be temporarily stickied?:D


Good idea. It's stuck (for now).

After the legislation is signed, we'll let it slide down the list… :cool:

[ken nougaret]

Emails are sent as i wait in the doctors office for a pre checkup before my flight physical. Hopefully the last one. Thanks for the link it made it very easy. ken

[Pilot4Life]

Petition and Letters Sent! Supporting all the "old-fogies":D out there...Before I know it, I'll be one too.;) Hope this passes and eases some stress/financial burden on GA pilots! I may need it sooner than later, since my student pilots keep trying to kill me, thus driving me to an early retirement and losing medical due to sanity/nerves, LOL!

[mr bill]

Not even 5 minutes. Thanks for making it so easy !

[Flyingsnowdog]

Done, Thanks for the link

[War Eagle]

[quote=N981MS;38557]EAA has made it really easy for us. It took me maybe 5 minutes. Here is a direct link.

http://govt.eaa.org/14781/support-general-aviation-pilot-protection-act/

X2. What he said ^^^^

[DesertFox4]

Letters and petition sent. I hope everyone on this forum takes a minute to fill out the petition. For even more results a hand written letter to your representatives would be a valuable followup.

[Esser]

Glad to see you guys can all rally behind your cause. In Canada no one lifts a finger to better aviation and we slowly lose freedoms...

[jamesmil]

done, fingers crossed.

[kmach]

Glad to see you guys can all rally behind your cause. In Canada no one lifts a finger to better aviation and we slowly lose freedoms...

I beg to differ,

COPA , as well as the EAA , are behind the scenes helping general aviation enthusiasts to shape the future.

COPA is actively involved in trying to keep our right to fly as free as possible, and to shape regs.

Are you a member ?

[Esser]

I am a COPA member and while I feel the organize does indeed contribute, I was more referring to the individuals that do nothing.

On the front page of the COPA website and the COPA newspaper, COPA asked everyone to write to Transport Canada to not pass off the airport approval process to municipalities. Out of 20,000 members, TC received 14 replies and not all of those 14 were COPA members.

In contrast, it looks like a lot of individuals in the US are pitching in personally to change this 3rd class medical.

That being said, I feel that COPA needs some serious change but that might not be a topic for this thread.

[MotReklaw]

Happy to have had the chance to speak out on this proposal. Thanks for posting the link. I sent it to several friends as well.

[Av8r3400]

More communications announced from the FAA.

Link (http://eaa.org/news/2014/2014-04-02_eaa-calls-faa-move-toward-rulemaking-on-medical-certification-a-good-initial-step.asp)

We need to keep up the pressure to our elected officials on this! Movement is beginning to happen.

[Av8r3400]

Link (http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/AMEs-Fight-Elimination-Of-Third-Class-Medical221803-1.html)

Here comes the voice of the beurocrats and people who make vast amounts of money with medical denials and re-certification (attempts).

We need to continue to send our letters to both houses of congress in support of this legislation. This is the way these things go, the special interests stepping in the way of the public's attempt at streamlining an out of control government in order to protect their own gravy trains.

If you haven't signed the petition or sent letters to your congressional representatives, please, please follow the link in the previous posts to do so. We can not allow this to be quashed.

[mr bill]

If this thing is ever passed, I'll bet it won't include anyone who has ever had a special issuance. Which to my mind, is the point of the whole thing.

[Agfoxflyer]

Just got a letter from one of my Senators. Said he would take my views into consideration if/when the bill comes for vote. Didn't say he would support it! Typical non committal politician.

[RobS]

This is a lengthy post, but I thought you might be interested in seeing where one of my State's Senators stands on this issue. It's not where I hoped he'd land on this - and I hope it's not indicative of the opinion of the rest of congress. Here is his reply to me:

"I think that a middle ground exists between the current FAA requirements and the driver's license standard that the General Aviation Pilot Protection Act would institute. Currently, general aviation pilots must obtain a Third Class Medical Certificate by passing a physical administered by a physician certified as an Aviation Medical Examiner (AME). The scarcity of AMEs enables them to charge high prices for their services and often places an extra burden on those general aviation pilots who must travel a great distance to reach the nearest AME's office.

FAA regulations specify physical and mental fitness standards that pilots seeking a Third Class Medical Certificate must meet. Most of these standards mandate that a pilot be free of certain medical conditions. I believe that doctors who complete Third Class Medical Certificates should have a thorough knowledge of their patients' histories in order to best evaluate whether or not their patients exhibit signs of certain proscribed conditions. Internal and family physicians have the patient knowledge, familiarity, and accessibility necessary to most effectively render Third Class Medical Certificate decisions. So, I would support a bill that enables internal and family physicians – whether or not they hold an AME certification – to complete Third Class Medical Certificates.

I cannot support the General Aviation Pilot Protection Act in its current form because I think that the driver's license standard that it specifies does not adequately protect pilots, their passengers, and the general population. I am open, though, to discussing the system that I propose above with the Act's authors as a potential improvement to their bill. Please be in touch as this issue develops."

[Dick B in KY]

Pretty standard political BS. Confuse and cloud the issue, and serve no one. My senator from KY says the issue is in committee, which means it will probably never leave, and therfore die.\

Dick B

[Av8r3400]

The only way to get this to pass is to keep up the pressure. Resigning to cynicism will guarantee you get your wish: More unabated FAA rule making and bureaucracy run amok.

I can't see how some half senile geezer is totally legal to drive their 40,000 plus pound RV down a two lane highway, avoiding repeated head on collisions by inches with no medical considerations, be we can not fly a 3000# airplane without thousands of dollars worth of useless medical trials.

You need to talk to your fellow pilots at the local airport. Give them the links to the AOPA and EAA campaigns. Go to an EAA Chapter meeting. Bring up the subject there.

Get involved.

EAA Link (http://govt.eaa.org/14781/support-general-aviation-pilot-protection-act/)

Find your Rep Here (http://www.house.gov/representatives/find/) and write your own letter to them.

[jrevens]

RobS,
If it were me, I'd write to your Senator & explain that statistics and common sense show that his position & thinking on this is wrong. I would encourage him to get the facts from the AOPA & EAA, as well as the lawmakers who introduced these bills. I would also point out to him that there are entire groups of physicians who agree strongly that the change would be good & most likely actually improve safety. We can't let ignorance among these people who think they are smarter than the rest of us go unchallenged if we want to have a chance to succeed.

[RobS]

John,
I agree and will reply using many of the points you made. With that in mind, does anyone know where I can find the statistical data regarding accidents due to medical impairment for 3rd class PPLs (which I believe is a fraction of a percent)?

In addition to the logical argument Av8r3400 made about "half senile geezers" - which is great and will use, I want to make some factual statements, with the data to support them, so when one his staffers reads my reply they might think about doing more research on this subject.

I also think some words about saving some of Uncle Sam's money by reducing the size of the FAA might ring a bell.

Any help as I draft my reply will be greatly appreciated.

[Av8r3400]

One of the best arguments to be made is the glaring lack of accidents due to medical impairment in Light Sport certificated pilots and their operations. We now have some history in the LSA arena and this is the trump card in the argument against the class III medical.

Saying that without a class III medical planes will fall out of the sky and the bodies will pile up like chord-wood is like the age old argument of asking when you stopped beating your wife…

[Agfoxflyer]

Just read an article where the AMA is gearing up to oppose the change in Third Class Medical.

[Av8r3400]

Flying Magazine (http://www.flyingmag.com/blogs/going-direct/ama-vote-reveals-dirty-secret-3rd-class-medical)

Makes sense. We would be taking the money out of the poor, starving, doctor's mouths. :rolleyes:

Insurance doesn't pay for FAA medicals. They are nothing but a gravy train for the AMEs. Especially once you need to jump through all the hoops of "special issuance".

This is pretty transparent to what their motives are.

[N981MS]

Just another reason to not like the AMA. Not exactly sure of their motives. Might be money.

Incidentally just so you guys know: Your regular doctor/AME is probably NOT in the AMA. I do not know any "real world" practicing doctors who are. I am not in the AMA or an AME.

I was an AMA member as a medical student around 20 years ago when there were no dues and I had not yet realized that their views and goals for medicine were so different from mine.

The AMEs I know are pilots and do it because they are aviators. Not for the money, as it is a small part of their practice. It is hard for me to imagine it as a large part of someones practice unless they have a contract with multiple large flight schools. If that is even possible. One of the AMEs I know debates whether it is worth the hassle of renewing his AME certificate every time it comes up. He does not feel the monetary reward is clearly worth it. He keeps it up because he is an aviator.

[WWhunter]

Might be way off base here but I thought I read where one of the leading CAMA guys is also working for the AOPA. Why can't we start a petition to get him remove from his 'prestigious' job at AOPA since he is opposed to their current standing in this fight? How can this person that is supposedly working for pilots rights also be a member of a group trying to stiffle our freedom to fly?

This is the quote I am refering to:
"one of the CAMA officers is non other than AOPA’s Warren Silberman, DO. We fail to see how a person who is an officer in CAMA, which strongly and actively opposes the General Aviation Pilot Protection Act, can be an effective leader in supporting the AOPA’s position in support of the legislation."

[HighWing]

I agree with Maxwell. I was once a member of the ADA. I recall an article written for Readers Digest where a freelance writer did a tour with his mouth as the bait for an article. He had exams across the North East to North Central states and received diagnoses for "needed" dental work that went from about $800 to $12,000 from the various dentists he saw along the way - including a dental school that gave him the second lowest estimate. The ADA? I was extremely disappointed when they supported every one of the Dentists diagnoses in a response to the article. My take on it is that there wont be the slightest hint of what might be best for society when a professional organization or union for that matter makes a policy statement.

[Slyfox]

I don't know. Reading all this makes me think this organization is blowing smoke. I know my AME said the same thing, he does it because he likes pilots, there is no money in it. He wonders also why he keeps doing it, to do it is a real pain to keep up on it. So why is the AMA so interested, don't know. Maybe they are just out to scare everybody so we pull out. why spend a bunch of money when there is no money to be made??? be very interesting to see how far they are willing to go.

[Dick B in KY]

My thoughts are; Can the AMA show that their physicals prevent accidents, and the EAA and AOPA CAN show that there has not been a increase in accidents due to using a driver's license.

Dick B

[Av8r3400]

News from the AOPA.

http://www.aopa.org/AOPA-Live.aspx?cmp=ALTW:L6

The first story in this weekly video is about the proposed abandonment of the Class III medical proposal. I don't believe they would make an announcement like this without a little horsepower behind it…

The AMA can go to …

[Av8r3400]

The latest thumb to the eye of the medical establishment is the poll on the CAMA (Civil Aviation Medical Association) website.

Please, go to their home page (http://www.civilavmed.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=68&Itemid=435) and participate in the poll showing them how out of touch they are. Then pass this link along to all of your friends.

As of this writing 96% is in favor of scrapping the Class III medical.

I'm sure this poll will disappear soon, because it is in stark contrast to the opinion they purport in the piece also posted on the home page.

[SkySteve]

Just voted. Now it's 96.1% in favor.

[Av8r3400]

The poll is gone.

That didn't take long... :rolleyes:

[JSR13]

Hi everybody, My instructor is Jackson who is has been an FAA gold ticket examiner for about 40 years, he says the bill will probably go threw because the bigger airplane manufacturers are missing out on a huge and growing number of pilots and are loosing tons of potential sales, especially with the Light Sport planes becoming so expensive and selling. The LSA pilot is becoming the norm. He also says when he goes to a airshow half the pilots are out of compliance in one way or another anyway and the FAA simply doesn't have the manpower to govern the private sector. I have a DOT physical that allows me to drive an overweight, oversized drill rig, but I cant fly a 172. Seems like normal politic logic, Maybe we need a committed to investigate the committee. Hope the bill passes, the choices in aircraft we could fly would be nice.

[old flyer 86]

It is just the way the goverment does things. Back in 1959 when ex general Quesada was faa administrator Eastern Airlines had a Lockheed Electra crash into Boston Harbor on takeoff due to Swallow ingestion into two engines on one side. Well the general arrived personally on the scene from DC and voiced the opinion that migratory birds caused the accident before the wreckage was brought up. This turned out to be the cause, however on the way back to DC the general voiced the opinion that Airline Pilots should not fly beyond age 60. The regulation came out shortly without any research being done and we were forced into retirement at 60 for the next 53 years where upon the age was raised to 65 without further research. All during this time foriegn carriers were overflying US airspace without age restriction. What made them safer than us? OLD FLYER 86 (Forced into early retirment Airline Captain):mad:
ATR 32,000 hrs.
F/E 1988
A&E CAA 1955
CFII 1954
FAA Master Pilot award 2011
Considering Kitfox IV this fall

[gregsgt]

AOPA: Call to action.

I just sent my letters.

https://app3.vocusgr.com/WebPublish/Controller.aspx?SiteName=AOPA&Definition=ViewIssue&IssueID=9034

[IVPleasure]

Sent my letters yesterday. I encourage everyone to do the same. :) I also try to ask my reps to sign on as co-sponsors every month reminding them how many are already co-sponsors.
dave

[N981MS]

Just thought I would re post this to make it easier for any new guys.

EAA has made it really easy for us. It took me maybe 5 minutes. Here is a direct link.

http://govt.eaa.org/14781/support-ge...rotection-act/ (http://govt.eaa.org/14781/support-general-aviation-pilot-protection-act/)

Electronically sign the petition and enter your zip code. It will offer you the opportunity to send letters to your Senators and Congressman based on your zip code.

Petition and 3 letters took 5 minutes.

If you like this initiative, do it now.

[ohlhausenr]

Just sent letters thru EAA. Thanks for the web link.

[jrevens]

Got it done - Thanks Maxwell!

[SkySteve]

Sent my letters.

[JSR13]

Sent my support letters. Thank you for the link.

[MotReklaw]

Thanks for the folks who follow this and keep up with the status.

[IVPleasure]

Got an email from AOPA. They presently have 150 reps and 20 senators as co-sponsors. Keep those letters going. :D
dave

[SWeidemann]

Re: 3rd Class Medical Reform

Now it is past the "End of the year" for 2014, is there any more news from the FAA about the new changes in Third Class Medical Rules?

Skot

[WWhunter]

All I have to say is...good luck!!!

This is all hearsay, Spoke to a good friend who is friend of an FAA guy. The FAA guy really didn't have any info other than saying that 'if' it gets through the beauratic pipeline, it would probably take 3 more years to get made into a useable regulation. Like I said, all hearsay.

Ain't I just a wealth of good news! ;)

[Av8r3400]

Our best hope for action is to keep up the pressure on congress. The FAA is a beurocratic nightmare that is nearly frozen in self protecting red tape. Not that congress is much better...

I have read recently that the number of congressional co sponcers is growing. With a new majority in the senate, my hopes are greater for this to proceed steadily.

[WWhunter]

100% agree av8r3400!! I am currently over here in the land of loonies (near DC) where all those high society types congrugate. Having spent a little time around them, my overall opinion is very low. Bunch of butt kissers and brown nosers who have a dim view of the rest of this great countries populous. They really are out of touch with reality and have no clue as to what we are dealing with.
The FAA is not much better, my son was selected to be part of a 'study' on implimentation of furture rules/regulations of GA/UAS (Drones). While he was involved, he stated to me that the FAA engineers were completely out of touch with what goes on, or involved with general avaiation. Sad state of affairs for us lowly recreational flyers.

[Av8r3400]

This link is still active.

http://govt.eaa.org/14781/support-general-aviation-pilot-protection-act/?m=4570659

Send more letters. Send them once a week. Or once a day. Keep the pressure up and spread this link around to all of your flying friends.

Lets all keep pushing and pushing hard!

[RobS]

Second set of letters are on the way. Thanks for the reminder . . .

[kitfoxnick]

This is the latest I've read

January 13, 2015
By Elizabeth A Tennyson


It has been nearly seven months since the Department of Transportation (DOT) began a planned 90-day review of the FAA’s proposed medical reform rule, and AOPA members and the general aviation community are frustrated by the department’s inaction, AOPA President Mark Baker told Secretary of Transportation Anthony Foxx in a strongly worded letter sent Jan. 13.http://www.aopa.org/-/media/Files/AOPA/Home/News/Foxx_letter.pdf
“Proposed medical reforms, which simply seek to expand on a standard used successfully for a decade, have been under review for three years, making it incomprehensible to many in the aviation community that no action has yet been taken,” Baker wrote.

The standard, which allows some pilots to fly recreationally without obtaining a third class medical certificate, has been in use since 2004 when the FAA adopted the sport pilot rule.
“The evidence is clear: Allowing pilots to fly without going through the third-class medical process is safe,” Baker wrote. “The FAA’s proposed rule would simply extend this standard to more pilots flying more types of small aircraft.”
The proposed medical reforms have the support of more than 180 bipartisan members of Congress, who co-sponsored legislation known as the General Aviation Pilot Protection Act that would have allowed thousands more pilots to fly without obtaining a medical certificate. Major aviation organizations and type clubs also have publicly expressed support for reforms as have the Flying Physicians Association and the AOPA Medical Advisory Board, whose members are both doctors and pilots.
Allowing reform to move forward also will save time and money for pilots and the federal government while bolstering general aviation—an industry that contributes $150 billion to the economy and supports more than $1.2 million jobs but is struggling, in part because of the high cost of flying.
AOPA estimates that medical reform, as proposed under the General Aviation Pilot Protection Act, would save pilots $24.6 million every year. A conservative estimate also shows an annual savings of $1.9 million to the FAA.
Because third class medical exams take place only once every two or five years depending on age, they are no substitute for an honest relationship with a primary care doctor and the self-assessment that pilots must conduct before every flight. To help pilots accurately assess their fitness to fly, AOPA is developing a comprehensive online educational course, which will be offered free to the public.
Baker also noted that even without a medical certification requirement pilots must undergo an evaluation with a flight instructor at least every two years to act as pilot in command. During these flight reviews, instructors evaluate the pilot’s cognitive condition, as well as his or her physical ability to safely operate an aircraft. If either is in question they do not endorse the pilot.
“Our members, the general aviation industry, members of Congress, and the American people are frustrated with our government’s inability to move efficiently and effectively on issues that will improve safety, save money, and help create jobs and support local economies,” Baker wrote. “On behalf of our members and the aviation community we must ask, when will the Department of Transportation allow third-class medical reform to move forward? The time to take action is now.”

[Av8r3400]

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Medical-Reform-Still-Has-Friends-in-GA-Caucus223444-1.html

Folks: please remember as of this month we now have a new congress and senate. These new bodies do have many proponents of this legislation.

Please continue to write letters, send emails and even call their offices voicing your support for these much needed medical reforms.

[Paul Z]

100% agree av8r3400!! I am currently over here in the land of loonies (near DC) where all those high society types congrugate. Having spent a little time around them, my overall opinion is very low. Bunch of butt kissers and brown nosers who have a dim view of the rest of this great countries populous. They really are out of touch with reality and have no clue as to what we are dealing with.
The FAA is not much better, my son was selected to be part of a 'study' on implimentation of furture rules/regulations of GA/UAS (Drones). While he was involved, he stated to me that the FAA engineers were completely out of touch with what goes on, or involved with general avaiation. Sad state of affairs for us lowly recreational flyers.

Now I'm not a moderator, but you have to keep this political discussion to the appropriate Discussion Group. However, I couldn't have said it better myself, especially the "Bunch of butt kissers and brown nosers who have a dim view of the rest of this great countries populous. They really are out of touch with reality and have no clue as to what we are dealing with." Well said!

[SWeidemann]

Re: The General Aviation Pilot Protection Act

Folks,

Today in response to my communication with our Senator about the Aviation Act (above) I got a rather generic response from our Senator Tammy Baldwin. An excerpt is included below. It appears we cannot let up the pressure from us (the constituents.)

Skot

"S. 2103 did not become law before the 113th Congress concluded in December 2014 and would therefore need to be reintroduced for it to be considered during this session of Congress. The General Aviation Pilot Protection Act has not yet been reintroduced in the 114th Congress, which began on January 6, 2015."

[Bourneredi]

I attended the Northwest Aviation convention this weekend. The keynote speaker was Mark Baker, the President of AOPA. He said that a new version of "the pilots protection act" will be filed with this new Congress within 10 DAYS!!!!!! He also said that it would be much stronger than the first one and that it has some heavy hitters that are pushing it. Get ready to support this one and to contact your elected officials. We can make this happen!

[Av8r3400]

It's far from over, yet.

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Medical-Reform-Tops-List-Again-In-Pilots-Bill-of-Rights-2-223621-1.html

Personally I have a higher hope for this legislation, or something like it, than I do for the enormously obese beurocracy of the FAA to actually reform anything itself.

[Paul Z]

You guys are dreaming. They just pushed net neutrality through on regulations. This government wants more control not less. What is wrong with the a web that they needed to regulate it?

[KFfan]

FWIW
An email from my Senator 2/26


"I am writing to update you on my efforts in support of general aviators. Like you, I believe that federal regulations should protect the safety of general aviators and their passengers while not being overly burdensome.
With the goal of simplifying regulations for individual aviators, I helped introduce S. 573, the General Aviation Pilot Protection Act of 2015 on February 25, 2015. If enacted into law, this legislation would allow pilots of small aircraft in the United States to operate without medical certification or proof of health if they possess a valid driver's license and adhere to aircraft size, weight, altitude, speed, and passenger capacity restrictions. This bill is pending before the Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation. I am hopeful that it will soon reach the Senate floor for a vote.
In addition, on September 2, 2014, I joined ten colleagues in sending a bipartisan letter to Secretary of Transportation Anthony Foxx and Office of Management and Budget Director Shaun Donovan urging the Administration to carry out an expedited review of the Federal Aviation Administration's Notice of Proposed Rulemaking to modernize third-class medical requirements for small aircraft pilots, based on the lessons learned from the 2004 sport pilot rule. The letter asks that the review quickly be completed so that the proposal can be released for public comment as soon as possible and urges the Administration to prioritize and expedite this reform and others, which would lower unnecessary barriers to the general aviation community.

It is a privilege to represent you and all Hoosiers in the Senate. Your continued correspondence is welcome and helps me to better represent our state. I encourage you to write, call, or email if my office can ever be of assistance."

[Av8r3400]

These letters we are sending are a great idea. I've sent several, too.

I do believe that if we all just take a minute to call our reps' offices, both house and senate, to verbally tell them we need their support, this will go far further.


IMO, a form email is good, especially several thousand of them, but a couple hundred phone calls is a HUGE statement.

Look them up here (http://www.contactingthecongress.org).

[jrevens]

Called all 3 of mine today... it took all of about 5 minutes. As mentioned, the Senate bill is S. 573. The resolution in the House is H.R. 1086. There is also a bill in the Senate for a revision to the Pilots Bill of Rights - I believe it is S.B. 571.

Thanks for the link for the contact info, Larry!

[jtpitkin06]

I believe the correct bills for pilots are H.R. 1062 and S.571 You can support H.R. 1068 of course, but it is for tribal transportation self governance. Not much help for medical reform.


To send a letter to your rep and senator click

http://govt.eaa.org/17422/support-pilots-bill-rights-2/



H.R. 1062 is the Graves bill

S 571 is the Inhofe bill
S 573 is the Boozman bill.

JP

[jrevens]

I believe the correct bills for pilots are H.R. 1062 and S.571 You can support H.R. 1068 of course, but it is for tribal transportation self governance. Not much help for medical reform.


To send a letter to your rep and senator click

http://govt.eaa.org/17422/support-pilots-bill-rights-2/



H.R. 1062 is the Graves bill

S 571 is the Inhofe bill
S 573 is the Boozman bill.

JP

John,

S 571 is the "Pilots Bill of Rights 2" proposal. I agree that it is probably the one to target since the EAA helped draft it. I thought that S 573 "General Aviation Pilots Protection Act 2015" also includes 3rd class medical reform. As I posted, HR 1086 is the House version of that, not 1068.

I agree with Larry that phone calls are probably more effective than form letters, but anything is a heck of a lot better than doing nothing.

[jtpitkin06]

As I posted, HR 1086 is the House version of that, not 1068.



Oops.. Dang aixelsyd, or is that dyslexia? Last time that happened I had to land on runway 53.

%:^)
JP

[jrevens]

Oops.. Dang aixelsyd, or is that dyslexia? Last time that happened I had to land on runway 53.

%:^)
JP

Hah! You made me laugh! I was gonna' make a joke about that too, John. I really appreciate your posting of the EAA link... I went ahead and did that yesterday, also. I think we can make this happen if everyone gets active. Thanks!

[Micro Mong Bldr]

Called my senators and my rep today. :D

[DesertFox4]

3 new letters on their way to my representatives.

[alienwes]

3 letters on their way.

[Av8r3400]

The FAA even admits that GA is in trouble (http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/FAA-Forecast-Mixed-For-GA-223708-1.html), yet they won't do anything to remedy the situation. Eliminating the unnecessary and burdensome need for the third class medical would be an enormous boost to not only GA, but the entire economy.

Please keep calling and sending the letters to your representatives. They can't ignore the flood of support these measures are getting.

[Paul Z]

My Representative is a big blowhard and he will not do a thing to help!

[Av8r3400]

Call him. Every day. Sometimes twice. You'll eventually wear him down, Paul.

I have faith in you. :cool:

[Paul Z]

No although we went to the same University. I personally believe he is afraid of doing anything. For some reason he is running scared in Washington!

[cgruby]

That is super news. The FAA has over complicated the physical exam to the point where they have driven everybody over 50 into an LSA. I say Hurrah if this gets passed.

[Dick B in KY]

Just received an e-mail from my congressman Andy Barr from KY, he has signed on for the FAA medical reform to operate an aircraft without regard to any medical certification or proof of health requirement. Some progress hopefully.

Dick B

[alienwes]

I got an email from mine as well in support.

[Av8r3400]

More encouraging news from EAA.

http://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/eaa-news-and-aviation-news/2015-news/05-28-2015-eaa-continues-push-for-pbor-ii-aeromedical-reform

and another form to send off to congress.

http://govt.eaa.org


As usual, follow the link I posted earlier, and CALL your reps. Letters and emails are great, but phone calls get noticed.

[Av8r3400]

Here's the link, again. http://www.contactingthecongress.org

Even the worthless members of congress can't ignore phone calls to their offices. Put the numbers on a paper and pin it up at your local FBO. Pass the number around at your local EAA chapter meeting. Put it into the newsletter. The most entrenched do-nothing's in congress can't ignore a couple hundred phone calls...

[old flyer 86]

Years and years ago when I was young like in the 50's, and the requirement came in for professional pilots to take an EKG for their 1st class medical one of my fellow pilots" said boy Bob I guess we're going to move up in seniority quickly now, ( referring to the older more senior pilots would flunk out) . I said to him how do you know you will pass it? Which gave him pause.;)

[awilson]

Here is the latest from EAA. I guess we are supposed to act immediately! It is extremely easy. EAA has the leters made for your officials. You just enter your address and in some cases a phone number and a couple clicks and they send them for you. Done. So if you haven't already done it now is the time!

An Urgent Message from EAA Chairman Jack Pelton


July 16, 2015
My Fellow EAA Members,
The Pilot’s Bill of Rights 2 (PBOR2), the bill to reform the third-class medical, is at a critical point as it works its way through the Senate. All of the work that EAA and our members have done in the past year to advance this issue has come to this point and we need your immediate help.
EAA has been working every day in Washington to make meaningful medical reform, our top advocacy priority, a reality. The bill currently needs more cosponsors to be better positioned for the next step in the legislative process, which is imminent. While advocating for you is a job I and EAA’s staff take very seriously, it will take all of us to make this happen. The action is happening right now in the Senate and it is imperative that your Senators hear from you, their constituents.
If there was ever a time for our community to get involved, and in one voice advocate for this crucial issue, it is now. I ask that you call or email your senators’ offices and personally express your support for PBOR2. Ask your senators to sign on as cosponsors to PBOR2 if they have not already (a list of current cosponsors is below). A set of talking points (http://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/eaa-news-and-aviation-news/2015-news/~/media/0f08c449b71541c19c12c975debd8b43.ashx) is also available to help you compose your message. As always you may use EAA’s Rally Congress system (http://govt.eaa.org/) if you have not done so already, but personal contact makes a far greater impact.
Thank you for taking direct action on behalf of EAA and the entire general aviation community. EAA takes all of its advocacy efforts very seriously, and we are doing everything in our power to see this issue through to a positive conclusion. With your help that end may be in sight.
Sincerely,
http://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/eaa-news-and-aviation-news/2015-news/~/media/bcee2b5b22ae4785afccbd1b66592c43.ashx?la=en
Jack J. Pelton

[DesertFox4]

Letters sent, again. Time to move this bill forward. Please drowned your Senator's offices with letters or phone calls.

[ken nougaret]

Done. Takes 1 minute.

[AirFox]

Guess it didn't hurt doing it again:)

[WWhunter]

Done, Unfortunately my senators are not on the list already co-sponsoring this.

I never got a response from either of them last time I wrote so don't expect any this time.

Not wanting to turn this into a political debate but they are extremely liberal, and not so sure they want to give up any type of 'control' they have. Has anyone in Mn written Al Franken and Amy Klobuchar ever gotten a response as to whether they support or oppose this?

[Av8r3400]

Get the phone numbers and call their offices. Repeatedly. Get your friends to do the same.

Phone calls go 100 times further than an email.

[Paul Z]

My worthless representative will not listen.

[RobS]

Looks like we wait again - http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/House-Move-May-Delays-Medical-Reform-224595-1.html . Congress wants to take their vacation!!

[TahoeTim]

I hate to be negative but it's a waste of time IMHO. I would love to get my third class again. I am really tired of EAA and AOPA sending me emails and letters asking for money.

The law was already passed and it's being ignored by DOT so even if it passes again, why would they act this time?

[Paul Z]

It is surprising to me how many pilots I have run across that don't have a current medical, and a few are not even licensed pilots. When I first started flying in Dallas, there was an accident where a man got into his twin engine at Addison Airport, a Towered controlled airport, in IFR weather got cleared and took off only to kill himself in a crash just south of the airport. Seems as if he hadn't even been soloed yet.

[jrevens]

I hate to be negative but it's a waste of time IMHO. I would love to get my third class again. I am really tired of EAA and AOPA sending me emails and letters asking for money.

The law was already passed and it's being ignored by DOT so even if it passes again, why would they act this time?

I'm curious - what law has already passed that eliminates the requirement for a 3rd class medical for certain types of flying like this one does? I'm passionately for this thing passing, because it makes good common sense in several ways, and it gets the government off our backs just a little bit more and that's a good thing. I'm sorry you're negative about it, because if enough pilots have that attitude and don't stand up & make their voices heard in favor of it, loud & clear, then you're right - it will have been a waste of time and a lot of good people's efforts. I know you're venting a little, but what's it got to do with EAA & AOPA asking for money also? Those 2 organizations have done more for all of us, in helping to preserve the freedom to fly as we do in this country, than I'll ever be able to repay. I give to them in ways that I can, and I appreciate them both. What's that got to do with this issue?

[Kitfox Guy]

It is surprising to me how many pilots I have run across that don't have a current medical, and a few are not even licensed pilots. When I first started flying in Dallas, there was an accident where a man got into his twin engine at Addison Airport, a Towered controlled airport, in IFR weather got cleared and took off only to kill himself in a crash just south of the airport. Seems as if he hadn't even been soloed yet.

I was up in Alaska this month and I was told by one of the local pilots that the ratio of licensed vs. unlicensed pilots in Alaska was less than 50 percent. He compared it to being raised on a farm in the lower 48 where farm kids learn to drive and operate equipment at a real early age sans government licenses.

[SWeidemann]

AOPA Live This Week report online had a piece with information about the progress of legislation for pilots. It sounds like there may be some proposed compromises in the works as far as medical requirements.

Skot

[DesertFox4]

Yes, there were changes made to appease some concerned Senators. :confused:
EAA has the details of the compromises made to the bill to increase it's chances of passage. It sounds as if it really had no chance of passing in it's original form.
Sorry I don't have the link handy to take you to EAA's newest article.

[WWhunter]

Yes, I read the new additions to the proposal and while I understand why they were added, it basically defeated the entired genisis of why most of us wanted this passed. The 10 years since a medical is appeasing those that can't seem to relinguish control on our lives.
In my case, I had purchased a Champ on floats and since it was LSA compliant I never renewed my medical. I think my last medical was/is passed the 10 year mark. Since I no longer needed it, I didn't bother carrying it anymore and as time went by, I have forgotten where/when I got it. Can't seem to find it either but am guessing it was around 10 years ago.

I am betting I am in a group of guys in the same situation that will either have to renew their medical or go get one. Well, those DA in big government have figured this out and their new ideas keep them in control. I lived in the Wash. DC area long enough to know that they relish the idea of more control and can not fathom losing any of it. Rant over!

[Paul Z]

Only one word needed "Politicians" both sides want to control the Population.

[DesertFox4]

Freinds, it will be difficult to discuss this topic and still refrain from topping our political soapboxs. Lets give it our best efforts. I'm interested more in how it will affect our members.
Regaining liberties is always a daunting task but this one I am in for the duration. Our pursuit of happiness now and in the future depends
on our joint effort to push as much of the original Pilots Bill of Rights 2 through to the end zone as we can. Once the seed germinates and has roots, then maybe we can prune it more to our liking. The game may be rigged but to sit on the sidelines and not take the field is to relinquish all chances of getting on the scoreboard.
Keep the pressure applied to the tenderest of spots team.;)

[SkySteve]

No political opinion from me (not that I don't have one). Just two very simple questions:
1. Does the new proposal change anything for the Sport Pilot certificate holder? (a simple yes or no works for me)
2. If the answer to question #1 is "yes", what will, not might, change?

[Danzer1]

1. Does the new proposal change anything for the Sport Pilot certificate holder? (a simple yes or no works for me)

No - but this forum requires me to enter at least 10 characters per post :)

[gregsgt]

As I understand it the proposal will change nothing with light sport certificate holders.

I did however have a concern as to what it would do to the light sport market. It seems to me that if a medical was not needed for heavier aircraft then it would devalue light sport aircraft since I'm sure many people would rather be flying a 172 or similar.

Now that I am seeing amended language about needing a 1-time medical if not had within the last 10-years I think that many will still gravitate towards light sport.

[jrevens]

Freinds, it will be difficult to discuss this topic and still refrain from topping our political soapboxs. Lets give it our best efforts. I'm interested more in how it will affect our members.
Regaining liberties is always a daunting task but this one I am in for the duration. Our pursuit of happiness now and in the future depends
on our joint effort to push as much of the original Pilots Bill of Rights 2 through to the end zone as we can. Once the seed germinates and has roots, then maybe we can prune it more to our liking. The game may be rigged but to sit on the sidelines and not take the field is to relinquish all chances of getting on the scoreboard.
Keep the pressure applied to the tenderest of spots team.;)

Well said, Steve. I couldn't agree more with your thoughts.

[TahoeTim]

On the other hand, it will increase the value of certain light sport planes like the SS7 because it benefits from a free upgrade to 1500 lbs rating and certain light sports that zoom past the 120 speed limit. It also brings in some cool stuff like biplanes and long ez. The LSA market will be fine as they have proven to be talented designers. 4 place stretch Kitfox anyone?

My cynical side hates the whole process due to the continual hand out for lobbying money from AOPA. Why does every bill in Congress need lobbyist cash? No need to answer that question:(

[Av8r3400]

IMO, I'd rather we get 90% of what we were looking for than be bull headed and get 0%.

I can live with the 10 year thing.

[KFfan]

Tim,
I'm a little confused. Can you direct me to where you read about a increase to 1500 pounds and "certain light sport airplanes"? What I have read is there are no changes to Light Sport certificate requirements.

Lou

[TahoeTim]

I was referring to those of us that would upgrade our license to PP. Why wouldn't most sport pilots upgrade? The point of the bill is to allow PP the same driver's license medical as sport pilots enjoy. The fear of the demise of sport pilot aircraft is not in danger for the reasons I outlined, IMHO.

If you are planning on staying in SP, then the bill offers no benefit.

[Paul Z]

I'm a lot confused, but that is just normal. I have a Private Pilot, but I fly as a Sport Pilot since my plane is a Kitfox SLSA. I don't see a need for the medical, much less want to pay for the physical. It would be nice if they used the weight to 1500 lbs.

[TahoeTim]

the whole point of the bill is to remove the medical requirement for third class medical with a few restrictions:

A pilot looking to fly without a third-class medical certification may do so only under limited conditions. No more than five passengers are allowed on qualifying flights. The individual may operate under either visual flight rules or instrument flight rules, but may not exceed an altitude of 14,000 feet above mean sea level and may not exceed an indicated airspeed of 250 knots. “Covered aircraft” under the proposed Act are defined as aircraft that are not authorized under Federal law to carry more than 6 occupants, and, have a maximum certified takeoff weight of not more than 6000 pounds.

google the topic...or go to the first post of this thread

[KFfan]

I was referring to those of us that would upgrade our license to PP. Why wouldn't most sport pilots upgrade?
Thanks for the clarification. As I understand it, upgrading from SP to PP would require a "base line" physical. I have no idea how the required hours would be handled. I would believe the FAA, as I understand the beheamoth, would somehow not use the hours flown as SP.:rolleyes:

Lou

[Tom Waid]

Thanks for the clarification. As I understand it, upgrading from SP to PP would require a "base line" physical. I have no idea how the required hours would be handled. I would believe the FAA, as I understand the beheamoth, would somehow not use the hours flown as SP.:rolleyes:

Lou

Read this (http://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/28/what-does-a-sport-pilot-have-to-do-to-get-a-private-pilot-certificate) It would seem that your hours logged in Sport Pilot training would apply to private pilot training.

[TahoeTim]

At a minimum, you normally would need night training and instrument training but since recreation pilot needs neither, that classification could become very popular, ironically.

To me it's been a silly deal from the beginning. The easy logical thing to do would have been to up the sport pilot definition to the same as rec pilot. It was too simple so it's no surprise the FAA didn't come up with it. That's how we got ads-b instead of mandatory radios. :eek: I guess Cubs will be able to see me but still not communicate. Not even fathomable in this age of cheap handheld radios.

[KFfan]

Thanks Tom. Except for the hours, that pretty well paraphrases my thoughts. Hard to imagine something sensible would be in the process.

[mcomeaux53]

I see November 18 the 3rd class reform is moving forward a little closer.
Read it on the AOPA web site. Maybe we'll see some results soon.

[RobS]

Based on an AvWeb article, it looks like they weren't able to move the bill out of committee because they didn't have a quorum!!

Quoting AvWeb - "The session ended in a deferral of S. 571 (http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Medical-Reform-Bill-Markup-Scheduled-In-Senate-Committee-225187-1.html) mid-vote, when the panel realized it did not have a quorum and adjourned for the day."

[offroute]

This kind of stuff isn't going to make it any easier:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/19/opinion/a-holiday-treat-from-congress.html

[jrevens]

This kind of stuff isn't going to make it any easier:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/19/opinion/a-holiday-treat-from-congress.html

What a 4-legged horse-like animal she must be... her diatribe is so full of misrepresentation, innuendo and false assumptions, and she obviously didn't take the time to get educated about the reality of the way that the proposal has already shown to be a safe & viable change, with data compiled over quite a few years. Additionally, it is probable that the "system" will actually be safer with the changes. People who are really quite ignorant about a subject should do their homework a little better before laying on the sarcastic fear-mongering to the general public. I know that this is not a political forum... forgive me.

[TahoeTim]

An amendment was added to give the FAA a year to write the rule. What happened to immediate enactment? The point of the PBOR was to enact the rule because the FAA has been dragging their feet for years. I foresee more amendments to drag it out beyond a year. I hate to be negative but it feels so corrupt at this point. I have the sense that the FAA and med doctors are in control and will amend this to the point it will never get done.

Can we start a drive to simply raise the weight limit, passenger count, and speeds for LSA? Same result.

[Micro Mong Bldr]

More and more I want to forget even LSA and go ultralight!

[DesertFox4]

Pilot’s Bill of Rights 2 Clears Key Senate Committee.
Aeromedical reform advances to full Senate.

[Av8r3400]

Link (http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Medical-Reform-Bill-En-Route-To-Senate-Floor-225351-1.html)

[TahoeTim]

Yeah, now they slipped a mandatory doctor visit and signed form back into the bill so by the time it gets voted on it will be worse than the third class medical.:mad:

[gregsgt]

Yeah, now they slipped a mandatory doctor visit and signed form back into the bill so by the time it gets voted on it will be worse than the third class medical.:mad:

I can work with that. I always thought it was absurd to have the faa making medical based decisions about people when they've never even met them.

[Av8r3400]

Full Senate has passed PBOR2.

AOPA (http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2015/December/15/Full-Senate-passes-medical-reform?WT.mc_id=151214special&WT.mc_sect=adv)

EAA (http://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/eaa-news-and-aviation-news/2015-news/12-15-2015-on-to-the-house-senate-passes-medical-reform?mkt_tok=3RkMMJWWfF9wsRoku6TIZKXonjHpfsX86%2 B4sX6Og38431UFwdcjKPmjr1YEBTsF0aPyQAgobGp5I5FEBS7D YT6V1t6UKWA%3D%3D)

[TahoeTim]

How long before it gets a House vote?

I am now wondering what the result of this law will be:

- current LSA aircraft suffers a drop in value?
or
- all other non LSA aircraft on market due to lost medicals rise in value?
or
- a little of both?

I'm tempted to go buy a Piper or a Cessna and sit on it for a few weeks but I'm not sure which way values will go. I did sell my light sport a couple of weeks ago to cover my belief that light sports will drop.

The good news is that we will all be able to rate our SS7's to 1500lbs.

[Av8r3400]

The light sport market may soften somewhat, but this rule does not change the expense of owning and operating antique, legacy certificated aircraft. LS certificated pilots will still only fly LSA aircraft. People out of the 10 year medical window may not wish to go through the effort of getting their medical renewed, staying within LS rules needing LSA craft.

This may do a lot to snap the LSA industry back to its intent of being affordable. Much unlike the carbon cub, icon, $250,000 boondoggle it has devolved into.

[TahoeTim]

I see it differently. Many pilots who are 40+ and are encountering 3rd class medical issues will probably move back to a certified plane. A large share of pilots do not build planes and do not work on them. When the choice is between a $100k light sport and and used certified plane, they will see the advantage of a nice 4 place $30k plane with $400 annuals. The depressed used certified market will bounce back and the used LSA market will suffer. The kitfox is a unique plane and should not be affected much because it beats out it's certified STOL counterparts in cost and performance.

Speaking to old airplanes, I am hunting for a 70 year old Ercoupe to replace the LSA is just sold. Why? Because I want one. A big part of being a frequent flyer is enjoying your plane and wanting to fly it often.

I do agree that this will wake up the new LSA market. They will now compete with new certified planes again. Their marketing play that a medical is not needed has disappeared.

[KFfan]

Sent a message to my Rep this morning. Pretty much a carefully worded demand to get on board. Well see...

[Esser]

Ah, although this isn't my issue, I think you will see a lot of constant speed props sold and 1550# gear for the Kitfox. There are a lot of very capable LSA's that are limiting their performance due to the rules.

A Cherokee is always going to be as sexy as a Cherokee gets. 172's will have the same demand as always. LSA's pretty fly the same speeds as those planes anyway and burn a lot more fuel. It'll be the guys that want 4 seats and if you want 4 seats you probably need 6 to take 4 and bags.

[Clark in AZ]

Maybe kit prices will come down? LOL!

[gregsgt]

I'm not sure it will have a big impact on LSA since a 1-time medical is still required. I know people that were holding out hope that it would be the same drivers license medical so they could fly a Cherokee or a 172 again but know they have no way of passing a medical. So their only option is still LSA.

I have a current medical but it was a god-awful-bureaucratic-expensive-pain-in-the-ass process for something my own doctor said was a non-issue.

I personally can live with the watered down changes but can see how others might not like them.

[TahoeTim]

One time medical is way better than every year. I have afib and have to do a treadmill and stress test every year. I let my third class go this year since I don't own a certified plane and never followed thru with my PP ticket due to the medical costs. Anyone in my situation that dropped their 3rd class in the last 10 years will be tempted to get a go fast plane to keep the kitfox company. I can't even imagine going 250 kts :eek: with 5 people riding with me :eek: That's King Air speed.

The bill was written for me!


As a side note, my buddy the Police Chief thinks I should by his Long Ez. I told him I don't fly stuff made out of resin and insulation board and I like looking out the front to see the prop :D

[IVPleasure]

You may want to rethink that Long EZ. Check this out.

http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2015/December/14/Indy-car-speed-with-Prius-fuel-consumption :)

[jtpitkin06]

When discussing the future of LSA with medical reform, you are really talking about two separate aircraft. E-LSA and S-LSA.

I have long predicted that E-LSA would all but disappear. Experimental builders will establish gross weight to comply with structural limits instead of a regulatory limit. Being able to fly without a medical in just about any experiment makes E-LSA a dead horse. Builders will increase the gross weight as needed and register the aircraft as E-AB.

On the other hand I predict S-LSA manufacturing to continue but many of their customers will migrate to larger, faster, heavier aircraft. The reasoning is that most LSAs cannot carry two well-fed people and enough fuel to fly for more than an hour. The average person weight of 170 pounds was barely viable in the 60's. That figure is now probably over 200.

While the S-LSA manufacturers all have the same problem in useful load they have a captive customer base. Their typical buyer doesn't have a medical and therefore would not buy anything bigger under the current rules. If medical reform passes the playing field changes dramatically. The pilots can move up in size but the S-LSA manufacturers cannot without re-certifying under part 23. S-LSA is forever married to 1320 pounds.

I predict tough times ahead for S-LSA manufacturers that do not make the transition to heavier certification.

As for the legacy aircraft I predict a surge in used aircraft sales as pilot move to faster, night and IFR capable aircraft. As legacy aircraft availability decreases there will be an increase in used aircraft prices.

Some pilots might not migrate to certified aircraft believing the cost of maintaining a certified airplane is prohibitive when compared to an experimental. But those pilots fail to consider the typical experimental costs $60K to build and sells on the used market for half that. $30K buys a lot of fuel and lots of annual inspections.

LSA will still have a following of pilots that have a Sport Pilot certificate. But I predict that without the medical certificate requirement that a large percentage will make the transition to Private Pilot.

In the mean time... Let's get the bill passed!!!

The dang radio nucleide stress tests are expensive and the thallium makes my hair fall out.

John Pitkin
Greenville, TX

[TahoeTim]

You understate the popularity of E-AB. I would guess that 99% of all experimental builders register their aircraft as E-AB. It offers more freedom compared to E-LSA. E-LSA has to be an exact copy of the factory S-LSA aircraft and I doubt anyone does that. Why would I want to build an exact copy of the factory plane, including avionics?

An E-AB builder can raise the gross weight rating anytime he chooses, it's experimental after all. Safety is an obvious consideration and I'm not advocating doing a weight increase without engineering back up. As a sport pilot, I will immediately raise the gross of my SS7 to 1500 the day I get my new medical. That's exactly what attracted me to the kitfox. It has a factory rating of 1500 that I have to currently downgrade to fly it as light sport. Other manufacturers such as Zenith and Vans could also rate their aircraft to to a higher gross without too much effort. The downside to E-AB is that the subsequent owner cannot do the repair work or annuals without an A&P sign off.

Let's take it a step further... I own a 1946 415-c Ercoupe. It is one of the few certified airplanes that is light sport legal. It was rated at 1260 lbs in 1946 but was uprated to 1400 with the D model. The only change that was required to change a C to a D was an elevator travel change. Many C's were uprated "free" which makes the C very rare since you never go back once you rate it above 1320 (stupid rule btw). I have a 1320 STC for my plane but again, once I step up to the new medical, I can make a logbook entry and fly at 1400 lbs.

Yes, the rarely used E-SLA might go away but E-AB is going to be as popular as ever and I predict that many kit manufacturers will get out their pencils and start offering a higher rating just like Kitfox does.

[Av8r3400]

John has his terminology mixed up. I believe he was stating E-LSA, when he was actually meaning Experimental Amature Built, within the LSA rules.

Another reform currently on deck is the Part 23 reform to make it follow ASTM guidelines, similar to the S-LSA rules. This will make his concern about the S-LSA manufacturers moot as well.

If you read the PBOR2 as it sits now, it is a step in the right direction, but the reform has lost a lot of its relief from rules and actually puts in place some new ones that may be difficult to muster. There are concerns that family practitioners will not want to sign off on these 4 year exams due to the liability exposure. I'm not a doctor, but have heard this come up as related to malpractice insurance costs, etc.

Without devolving into the politics of it, I'm actually hoping the current version dies where it is and that the congress will finally pass a long term budget measure for the FAA which contains the original PBOR.

[avidflyer]

Actually, the list of certified aircraft that are legal for a sport pilot to fly is quite large. Champs, Chiefs, Cubs, Taylorcraft, Luscomb are just some of the ones on the list. Many of the 2 seaters built before or just after WW2 fit the category. Also, anyone can do repair work on an experimental aircraft, although you do have to have a repairman's certificate to do the yearly conditional inspection if you're not an AnP. (this post addresses a couple of points made by Tahoe Tim)Jim Chuk

[TahoeTim]

My point was intended to point out that the weight rating is the key to survival of the current kit companies. Kitfox is in a great place in that aspect.

I also agree that politics have sadly gotten in the way of common sense. Simply raising the light sport weight limit would do the same thing as this bill. I will not support AOPA or EAA fund raising unless they move to practical solution of redefining the existing light sport rules. It's time to reward sport pilots by allowing them more choices in aircraft. Simply raising the weight limit to a modest 2000 lb and the stall a few mph would up a LOT of aircraft. At some point we have to decide if we want to be stubborn and die a slow death or try to get more people flying and then fight for their business by offering an aircraft more attractive than a Cessna 150 or an Archer. I have faith that the kit designers can come up with some sweet kits if they were allowed to work with a 2000 lb gross.

PBOR2 is only out there because the FAA refused to act on PBOR1 that was passed as law. It's corrupt. :mad:

[av8rps]

Maybe when tbe Constitutional Convention occurs (we're getting closer by tbe day...), we can just abolish the FAA altogether along with the rest of this screwed up government. That would solve all of our issues. :cool:

Oh, and for the record, Avid and Kitfox were going gangbusters in the 80's and 90's, long before Light Sport was even conceptualized. So I don't really think it will have much impact on Kitfox. If anything, it might open a new door for a larger and even more capable Kitfox?

[TahoeTim]

Agreed.

We need to focus on getting more pilots into any GA aircraft, glider, PPC, gyro,etc

[jtpitkin06]

John has his terminology mixed up. I believe he was stating E-LSA, when he was actually meaning Experimental Amature Built, within the LSA rules.


You are correct. I had the terminology confuselated. I did mean to say E-AB.

Thanks.
John P

[Dave S]

For those folks intending to do medical certification through BasicMed, I found out today that the Mayo Clinic is also providing a required self assessment on-line training course. Looks like there will be two entities doing this now - AOPA and Mayo.

From what I can tell while they are both free of charge for the course, AOPA is open to anyone at anytime; and, Mayo will require that a person has had their once every 4 years exam with their personal physician completed first. I also expect the course each entity is providing, while covering the required areas for self assessment, will likely not be worded identically.