bounce/balloon

[mikegregory]

hi all , after some advice , i have a kitfox mk2 , with not many hours on it , i find in nil wind i can land quite well , but any headwind or cross wind & there not as good , i either bounce , or ballon , or both ! any tips ?? especially on ballooning , i have had conflicting advice on that bit , thanks in advance
mike

[tommg13780]

From my experience with the early Kitfoxes it seems that a consistent stall landing is very difficult to achieve. Particularly with the bungee gear. I found myself being able to do wheel landings that were much more satisfactory and seemed to work better for me especially when flying with a passenger at gross weight. Another thing that may appeal to you is a well executed wheel landing is somewhat of a status symbol amongst fellow tailwheel flyers. Not that we have any tendency to be show off's of course.

[Dravenelle]

what your tire pressure?

i have a mk2 with ballon and can land
on runway with no bounce

i put a little flap when i make my approach


David

[ackselle]

Practice.....once you're done, practice some more! After you've mastered the landing, keep practicing.

I've always found it interesting how the problems of the hardware go away with repetition.

[SkySteve]

Mike,
What is your Over the Fence IAS? Your Landing Spot IAS? I find that most landing problems are due to too much speed. One of the advantages of our airplanes is that they can fly very slow. If your plane is bouncing and/or ballooning it is still flying, probably caused by excessive speed. For a comparison, I usually come over the fence at around 40 mph IAS and hit my landing spot about 35 mph IAS.

[jonstark]

I bought a 1947 Stinson 108-2 and was having a lot of difficulty getting consistent landings even with 50+ hours in type. I just couldn't get it every time no matter what. -but- On a cross country trip from Los Angeles to Tampa I flew into some heavy rain and got the pitot system full of water. I had no airspeed indication. I started to nail the landings! Feel the aircraft.

Similarly, I installed a STOL kit on my 180 and was having trouble getting full stall landings timed perfectly and was bouncing and ballooning. I figured out that the lower landing speed had robbed me of elevator authority and decided to install VGs. Like power steering! Acts like vernier control of pitch now. Still blow plenty landings due to being less than current but the VGs helped dramatically.

jon

[mikegregory]

thanks to all , most appreciated ,
drav , the tyres are around 8lbs , about right i think ? im curious you use flap on a mk 2 ?? i was told that on mk1 & 2 , if you used flaps for landings , you couldnt get the nose high enough for a 3 pionter on touch down ???
steve , wow that seems slow ?? id be worried about stalling at the speed ? i come in over the hedge at 55mph , not sure about touchdown as i never look !! i have tried it slower , but am worried about it dropping out the sky ??

[Dravenelle]

sorry for my poor english

for flap i pull just un little bit... approx 1" on flap handle
and i have a lot elevator to flare
(i have 25 deg up elevator)

8 pounds inflate tire is good

for a great landing is try and try to feel your kitfox

if you land only on runway...is more difficult try to land on a good
grass runway is more easy to land and feel your aircraft

my approach speed is 45 mhp ...
david

[Danzer1]

Mike,

Sounds like you don't have much time in it. Before trying anything suggested, on an actual landing, I'd suggest exploring your planes handling characteristics at altitude first! Including the stall (envelope) edges. If uncomfortable, have an instructor go with you - no harm in learning more from someone else - and safer too.

Sounds like you may be coming in a little fast for a 2 and it still wants to fly. Do you use any flaps? Are you bouncing on both wheels at the same time? or does it walk at all? Is your approach angle to steep?

On your good landings does the tail come down quick or slow and can you keep the tail planted on the ground shortly after touch or do you have to hold down for quite a while?

Greg

[SkySteve]

Mike,
I very much agree that you need to practice at altitude. You also need to know where your plane stalls with no flap, half flap and full flap. My plane stalls at 32 mph indicated with full flaps. I almost always land with full flaps. Half flaps at 70 mph indicated (on down wind). Full flaps on short final, then dump the flaps right after touch down. I have literally spent several hours flying with full flaps at 35 mph indicated, not letting the plane loose any altitude, just getting the feel of my plane, at altitude, turning 360's, 180's, S turns, straight and level, etc. to get to know her.

[Jfquebec]

A old pilot of Hélio Courrier and Waco..said when you Land on wheel the tail want to go down when your wheel touch the ground and appens the bounce....so he said when you start it's better to ..at last time bank a little bit the aircraft left or right to touch only one wheel and the inertie give more energie on second wheel..and the result was no bounce...:cool:...
I dont know if i explain correctly....


Jf

[SkyPirate]

The trick is knowing your plane and your seat altitude to the ground :)
This only happens with practice/experience.
When i wheel land i set up for normal approach holding her off the ground until my "seat altitude" feels right then i put slight forward stick to let her settle, once the mains are on the ground i hold them down with stick, i do not rely on the slower speed to keep her grounded, a gust of wind can lift you back up, it's true the saying " a tail dragger never stops flying until the engine stops" its good to keep that in mind.
This is the major difference between tail draggers and tricycle planes( nothing against either config.) each has its own characteristics.
A pilot can come in hot, set the mains down with power and push the stick forward, as long as the power is up the plane will remain flying with wheels down and stick forward hence the phrase " stick the landing"
Now slow down enough on approach to set the mains down gently with no bounce and you know the meaning of the phrase " grease the landing"
The biggest problem GA pilots have during the transition to a light aircraft, is 90% landing, you can not stall a light aircraft 5' off the surface and plop it on the ground like you can a heavier aircraft, the light aircraft will let you know very quickly that it does not like it with a abrupt bounce , in that instant its best to power ip and go around for another attempt.
And keep that in mind, you can always go around,.. Trying to clean up a nasty landing fighting the controls to straighten her out doesnt always end with the results we hope for

[tommg13780]

Chase,
I like the way you explained the dynamics of a good wheel landing. One more issue that comes with the stick forward action to "plant" the mains is the difficulty that some people have with thinking the airplane is going to nose over. This can set up a sort of phobia that is extremely difficult to overcome.

[SkyPirate]

I suppose your right Tom, if a person thinks about it that way,
If researched most nose overs are power to idle and brakes on, with a tail wheel... When you stick the landing your actually putting a tail wheeled plane into trike config ( aerodynamically )but without the nose wheel, being a trike has mains just rear of max rear CG and a taildraggers mains are forward of max forward CG, the aerodynamics and weight of tail and gear location make it so the only way aside from dropping the mains in a hole to nose over is power off and brakes on, now if your show boating and riding with tail up at a crawl, power up, too much brake and too much power can cause a prop strike but the tail would be really high, usually doing that if the tail is not at zero but slightly down then you get a skid on one or both tires

[cap01]

Tom you are absolutely correct about pushing the stick forward when the wheels touch. it's just an unnatural act and it takes a while to get used to it

[Geowitz]

The others have brought up a great point.

I haven't tried this to the same extent in a Kitfox yet so it may not apply, but I would bet on it working. My tailwheel instructor would make me ride all the way down the runway with full throttle and FULL forward stick on a Champ to get me over the fear. Weird feeling at first, but it's like the tail would just lock in and feel very solid. He explained that as long as you're on the ground the relative wind would always be too much on top of the horizontal stab to let it flip over.

Flying the Kitfox I've definitely held at least half down elevator when rolling on the mains down the runway with full throttle on take offs, touch and goes, and landings. It definitely holds the plane on the ground past regular take off speed and I get the same "locked in" feeling as with the Champ. Of course I just ease up on the stick to add a little bit of up elevator so it gently lifts off. On landings you can stick it with the elevator and then hold the tail wheel off as you bleed off speed. Once the tail wheel falls and touches down on it's own from lack of lift(while still holding down elevator) I then immediately pull full up to keep it planted.

Basically, we're all describing wheel take off and landing techniques which require down elevator when it seems most unnatural.

Give it a try. Just don't mess with the brakes until your tail settles down to be safe. Some can keep the tail up and get all fancy, but this should help with your bounce if you're comfortable with wheel landings.

[Dave F]

YOu want to learn to control better ?

Try landing on one wheel -- crosswind or not ...........

Run it down the runway doing an extended touch and go.
Switch from Left ro right main.

Learn your plane............ really is not that hard.

once you master this you will be a better pilot..........

First learn slow flight........... at altitude.........

dis connect your ASI and feel your plane.

IF you not having this much fun -- you just ain't doing it right LOL

[SkyPirate]

Dave on stock gear that is easy,..on grove it takes a little more finess :)