Full Flap Use

[jiott]

I just built and am now flying off the 40 hours of my SS7. I am also a fairly new pilot with 160 hours total (in a Kitfox). Training in Boise with Stick & Rudder in their SS7 SLSA I always used full flaps for landings. On my kit built SS7 the full flap position is much more aggressive than the SLSA, and it was recommended to me by many on this forum and also John McBean that I use 1/2 flaps for landings until I become very familiar with the airplane-so that is what I have been doing.

Landing with 1/2 flaps is OK, but I miss the steeper approach angle that I got used to with full flaps on the SLSA. I did try some mock landings at altitude with full flaps in my own SS7, but the nose down pitch is so great that it is impossible to trim for a 60 mph approach speed and you come in with a lot of back stick pressure.

Short of taking my center console apart and cutting another flap detent notch between the 1/2 and full flap positions (which some guys are doing), what else can I do to get the steeper approach angle for short fields? What other wisdom or suggestions are out there? Are there any dangers in just using full flaps and holding the back pressure to carefully hold approach speed?

I would highly recommend that those of you still in the building process cut that extra notch before you rivet on the flap detent bracket.

Jim

[airlina]

Learn how to slip your airplane. An aggressive slip will bring you down at over 1000 fpm on a steep angle, with the added benefit of better visibility to see those tree tops you are dropping in over at the approach end of the runway. Do lots of practice at altitude to get a good feel for them before using them on final. They will feel awkward at first , but once you get comfortable with them, I suspect you will use them all the time. Slips are a great tool to be proficient at for the safe Kitfox pilot. Go out and have fun. Bruce

[Dave S]

Jim,

The advice to use slips for step descents is right on.

I found that the additional stall speed reduction from 1/2 to full flaps on our S7 was inconsequential....little more than 1 mph while 1/2 flaps from retracted flaps gives a 5 MPH stall speed reduction so the full flap setting gives a little, but not much advantage.

IMHO - Flaperons extended as flaps reduce stall speed; but, do not add drag like the barn doors on a cessna do.......that's what slips are for and a kitfox performs slips like no other plane I have flown....just have to practice.

While I do landings and takeoffs retracted, half & full, I find myself primarily using half flaps most of the time for most operations. For landing, I will use full flaps if there is little wind and no gust conditions.

My experience has been that full flaps and somewhat variable/changing winds require a lot of attention to fairly obvious amounts of adverse yaw when jockying the alierons to compensate for the winds while half flaps not anywhere near so.

Cheers,

Dave S
KF7 trigear

[n85ae]

If you don't use full flaperons, don't start. If you do, you might want to
think twice about it. This is why:

I can't say it will EVER happen to anybody else, but I had what I am sure was
a tailplane stall with my Series 5 at altitude when playing with full flaperons
(22 degrees) and did a tail over nose forward tumble ... I'm sure there are
skeptics who might think it didn't happen, or say I imagined it ... In any case
it DID happen to me and I'm lucky to be typing this.

I'll never know exactly what caused it, but I know exactly what it did when
it happened and I'm not going to go try to reproduce it ever.

N85AE now has a mechanical block that prohibits any more than 11 degrees of
flaperons. Going tail over nose on short final would be a very bad situation. I
don't even want to experience it at altitude again.

The plane flies like total crap with full flaperons anyway, and the roll control
is really screwed up so I can't see any good reason to use them. The 11
degree position is fine, and I use it regularly.

I would seriously suggest NOT using 22 degrees, and learn to slip. It will sink
like a brick with a forward slip.

Regards,
Jeff Hays
N85AE, Series 5, IO-240B

[Slyfox]

the kitfox has flaps. hmmmm.

[Dave S]

Jim,

One point I forgot to mention is that our plane is set up with the trim assist kit that John sells for the plane......that helped considerable with trimming the back pressure off on approach with flaps. In my opinion, the trim assist kit is a great addittion.

Another point for all of us to keep in mind is that each builder's kitfox is not going to be identical - heavier or lighter engines, swept wing or not, more or less power. Some with the battery in the tail.

Our plane has the manual trim tabs on the elevator while others have the electric trim on the horizontal stabilizer.

All of the potential variables may or may not have an effect on handling characteristics and that is what we figure out in steps while doing phase 1 testing for our individual airplanes.

Sincerely,

Dave S
KF7 trigear
912ULS Warp Drive

[Jerrytex]

I too vote for slips. I didn't use any flaps the first two years i flew my kf 4. I relied solely on slips to lose altitude steeply. Might of had something to do with the fact that I learned to fly in a Champ and it doesn't have any flaps. I just recently starting using about 1/4 flaps to smooth out my landings. i slip with a Little flap on too. it drops like an express elevator. Lot of fun.

[n85ae]

I too had the spring assist kit, however I'm not a fan of it either, so I
removed it as well. The reason why is that the pressure you are removing
from the stick is telling you something (i.e. that there's a load on the tail)
with the variable incidence tail (which mine has) it is a much better idea
to just hold that pressure and "trim it out". this gets the tail flying where
it wants wants to be. If you have elevator deflection to the point where
you feel a significant pressure on the stick, that's telling you that the tail
is not a long ways away from stalling. You really should NOT be using
your arm plus a spring.

My tailplane stall occurred shortly after I installed the spring assist kit,
and I was flying the plane pretty aggressively at altitude (8000 ft. AGL)
my guess is that some combination of the amount of elevator deflection
I was holding (assisted by the spring) to overcome the 22 degrees of
flaperon and probably a momentary airflow disruption over the tail caused
it to stall thus creating the a$$ over tea kettle phenomenon to occur.

Regards,
Jeff Hays


Jim,

One point I forgot to mention is that our plane is set up with the trim assist kit that John sells for the plane......that helped considerable with trimming the back pressure off on approach with flaps. In my opinion, the trim assist kit is a great addittion.

Another point for all of us to keep in mind is that each builder's kitfox is not going to be identical - heavier or lighter engines, swept wing or not, more or less power. Some with the battery in the tail.

Our plane has the manual trim tabs on the elevator while others have the electric trim on the horizontal stabilizer.

All of the potential variables may or may not have an effect on handling characteristics and that is what we figure out in steps while doing phase 1 testing for our individual airplanes.

Sincerely,

Dave S
KF7 trigear
912ULS Warp Drive

[jiott]

I appreciate all the good comments. I do have the spring assist kit. I also have learned to forward slip and agree it is a great way to lose altitude fast and do use it quite a lot. However, a slip is not a stabilized approach and I was just hoping for a steeper stabilized approach if possible. The full flap position just seemed to be perfect on the factory SLSA. If the full flap position on the kit version is so unuseable, as most of you seem to be saying, I wonder why it is even available on the kit. There must be some benefit to it somewhere. I would like to hear from someone who does use it and when and why. Maybe John M would weigh in on this?

The ass over teakettle story really has me spooked from even experimenting with it.

[n85ae]

I've never heard of it happening to anybody else, so I think I'm the lucky one.
I talked to John at Kitfox, and he claimed to have tried to replicate it with no luck. Mine is nose heavy with the IO-240B so with 22 degrees, and the elevator
deflection I had in with the trim assist, etc. I think there was a heavy downforce
load on the tail and some burble made it pop. It might be impossible in a 912
version of the plane with the lighter nose.

I use slips all the time, the plane just loves to slip. I always fly a high approach
to be safe, and drop it in with forward slip. Just relax pressure and it straightens
right out.

Regards,
Jeff

[Av8r3400]

My IV is rigged for 26 degrees at full flap. I don't use that all the time, but occasionally when I want to land real short...

I've never had any issue with inversion or flapperon stall. This is the first time I've ever heard of tail plane stall on this design. Having a forward cg as a factor makes sense, though.

[Slyfox]

now for me to comment more. I hate the flaps. for one it's just to much work to reach down and pull on the lever. it lowers the front. I don't feel the flaps do much for lowering the stall.

with that said. how do I fly my airplane. like a crazy man of course. I can do a base to final right over the numbers and still stop the plane within 300ft. how do I do that.

well, how about, and I have said this here many a times, I have the idle @ about 500 or less if I pull the throttle all the way out, sometimes I have landed with the engine off. OHG no way, yes way. if I want to land short, usually to show off to someone waiting to take off. I will do this.

I have a medium Ivo prop. this prop is set up with no extra washers. meaning I can flatten it where I want and course it where I want. the course part only will be set to 5200 rpm generally. flatten, depends on how direct I want to point the nose. I can be in real short @ 800ft and slow to 50mph and drop, literally drop out of the sky with throttle pulled all the way back. I will generally hang at 90mph. I will slip with full rudder and quit a bit of aileron all the way to the final, which can be really short. once I line up I keep the rudder in and level the wings. very quickly the airspeed will go away and than I let go of the rudder and land.

Now two other things my airplane has, electric trim in the elevator, very much like this. the other is vgs. I love those also. there are many benefits of those and I just don't want to get in to that at this time.

flaps quit honestly I just flat out don't use. On take off the other day on asphalt I hit the power, pushed the stick forward and it was off the ground as fast as I hit the throttle. why would you need more than that?

[Dorsal]

2 more cents
On landing I use one notch regularly (it lowers my stall speed ~3-4 mph), I have the spring assist which I like and electric trim which I also like. One notch of flap and full trim floats my ship in very nicely on final pretty much hands off. I do enjoy steep slips also (except when the tanks are full :o) and practice them for fun. I don't use full flaps as I find it makes the ship mushy and doesn't seem to add much.

[Dave S]

Have to second Dorsal's :o....regarding steep slips and full tanks......I also found out that it is entirely possible to get a trace of gas fumes in the cockpit with a max slip & full rudder.......at first I couldn't figure out where the stink was coming from........then, after doing the slips, I noticed a little drool mark from the fuel cap pitot across the wing pointing straight at the little slot on the tail access cover where the vapors could be vacuumed back up into the fusdelage....yeah....there were fuel spots & drool on the tail access cover too.....maybe I only noticed it that day because I hadn't washed the plane (double:o:o) and there was enough dirt and bird gunk to dissolve in the gasoline drops and leave a noticeable trail......oh well....

Dave S
KF7 Trigear

[beeryboats]

I just had to jump in here even though I have yet to fly my new to me mod IV. I learned to fly in a Piper Vagabond that is almost the same specs as the Kitfox, but with no flaps. Same weight, wingspan, 65hp, etc and all aileron. It would slip like a demon! Except for takeoff, I see no reason for flaps if you know how to slip. Start slow and learn how she reacts to rudder and opposite aileron and enjoy the ride down. I was amazed how you can go from a minor correction on final to a total elevator ride with just a little cross controlling.
Jay

[N981MS]

As a data point.

S6-TD-IO240

I am not suggesting that my way is correct or better. But these have been my experiences.

I have used full flaps for 10 years (700 hrs) on most of my landings. I don't pull any flaps until on final. I do not have the trim assist. I have never had a problem and I suppose that I am so used to the adverse yaw that I don't notice any more.

Power off stalls with full flaps and full aft stick have consistently resulted in a nose slightly high descent with continuous very mushy aileron control. Plenty good enough to keep wings level.

I do not doubt what happened to Jeff and it does give me a bit of concern. But something different than my typical approach (right or wrong) obviously happened to him.

Half flap stall and full flap stalls are about 5 kts slower than clean.

I plan to go out and do some performance approaches with all 3 configurations to get an idea of actual short field best practice.

I love slips but I have found they unnerve some passengers especially if they are not forewarned about them.

Jeff you mentioned flying it aggressively. What was it you were doing at the time? So I can avoid it. I do not want to replicate it. I could certainly envision a power on stall with flaps doing something like this.

[Dorsal]

I love slips but I have found they unnerve some passengers especially if they are not forewarned about them.



+1 on this :)

[n85ae]

I popped full flaperons, at near (or possibly above) max flaperon speed to get
a very steep descent to go down through a hole in the clouds. Nothing
happened when I did this, however within about 5 seconds the tail violently
went up and the nose rotated down and past vertical. Everything in the
cockpit and baggage compartment flew up on the ceiling and windshield (maps,
water bottles, etc.). While this was all happening I managed to lunge forward
and pop the flaperons back to zero. My legs were against instrument panel
bottom and head against the ceiling (my straps were not super tight). I
recovered poorly, and probably did close to a max G above VNE pullout.

The controls came back pretty quickly after I dumped flaperons. However
ahead and above all I saw was ground so I started pulling (just like the
Split-S recovery they teach you to NOT do when you learn aerobatics)

I have since had aerobatics training (yes, prompted because of that
experience). What I have since learned is I should have rolled to nearest
horizon and pulled out but I treated it as a stall recovery rather than an
upset recovery. So I simply chopped power and pulled until I saw the horizon
again.

I will say - That I read your short field full flaperon write up previously, and
had in fact been playing with the flaperons that week at altitude trying to
get comfortable with them. So if I had to give anybody credit for my having
been using them a lot ... It would be Maxwell Duke ... :)

I won't say it could ever happen to anybody else, but I will never fly my plane
with full flaperons again under any conditions.

The way I was flying the plane was like flying a C-152, when you slap the
lever all the way down and try to get it to come ripping down under full flaps.
It was in my opinion a near fatal mistake. I'm pretty positive I caused a big
airflow burble across the tail and it simply stalled and shot straight up.

I have also installed tiedown rings in the baggage compartment floor and have
a motorcycle luggage net with hoops which anything I don't need to have to
fly the plane gets tucked underneath. I literally landed the plane with pencils,
maps, water bottles, etc. spread all over inside the plane.

Regards,
Jeff Hays


As a data point.
Jeff you mentioned flying it aggressively. What was it you were doing at the time? So I can avoid it. I do not want to replicate it. I could certainly envision a power on stall with flaps doing something like this.

[n85ae]

Maxwell - I'd also mention it was not like any stall I have ever done in the plane
and that includes some very nose high power on stalls with a violent nose drop.
This was like somebody kicked the bottom of the tail straight up.

Seriously think about it. To fly an IO-240B nosed plane, it requires full trim, and
you are holding a lot of back pressure. Consider the aerodynamic load on the
tail in down force. With that much elevator you know the tail cannot be far
from stall. If it stalls it goes up.

I used to fly a Warrior and it was very easy to get the vertical tail to stall if
you try slipping it. When it did, it would pop the nose with a quick yaw snap,
the tail would recover. You could hold max rudder and feel it yaw, then
pop it would stall, the nose would yaw, rinse lather repeat.

So ANY aerodynamic surface can be stalled. People just don't imagine the
horizontal tail stalling. I really am convinced the heavy nose Kitfox can under
certain circumstances tailplane stall.

[SkySteve]

Quote:
Originally Posted by N981MS
I love slips but I have found they unnerve some passengers especially if they are not forewarned about them.


When I first started flying my Kitfox I was surprised at how fast it reacted to any and all inputs I made. Thinking any new passenger would feel the same, I make a point of explaining any and all things to them prior to doing anything, including take-off. I tell them what I am going to do, what it will feel like and then assure them I will be in controll the whole time, then do it. For example, prior to doing a slip, I explain which way the nose will be heading, which way the plane will be heading, which wing will be down, approx how fast we will be decending, when and how the plane will react when I take it out of the slip, why I will be slipping the plane, what to expect right after the slip is finished. I also never slip the plane in a manner that will put them on the low side of the slip unless I have to based on a cross wind. If I have to put them on the low side I try to make the slip as gentle as possible and continue to ensure them thru the slip that I am in controll. The very last thing we want to do to a passenger is scare them.

[Slyfox]

with the way these airplanes fly. you should not need to slip with a passenger. really. you can control yourself and the airplane to do a standard airport approach. control your speeds, control your decent, and have plenty of runway left to stop. the only time I need to slip is for MY fun. so you have it. just land a normal landing, take off with a normal take off and you can leave the flaps stationary in the normal flight mode. OFF.

[Slyfox]

there is one more thing that keeps me from NOT wanting to use flaps. it's the fact that when you put in the flaps the stick pressure to actually pull the elevator back for the flare will be real hard. the ability to decent without stick pressure for nose heavy is more. I have electric trim on my elevator, and with full trim for nose high, I still have a nose over situation if I put in the flap. I like the fact that when I land without flaps and full up on the trim, I have a nice loose stick, I can almost let go of it without any drop. I can relax on landing and when things are right, that nice no more flying feeling, I pull the stick back all the way and let it drop on the runway, nice and soft I may add.

[n85ae]

My plane has a very flat glide, even when slowed down a lot. The flaperons
do not provide hardly any drag, so I find slips to be almost a necessity to fly
a nice glide path. I use from a minor slip to a full rudder slip. Of course if
flying from an 8000 foot runway on a ILS'ish approach with a nice headwind
maybe not .... But that's not usually the case. :)

I've never had a passenger get scared from a slip, but I always tell them
what I'm doing first.


with the way these airplanes fly. you should not need to slip with a passenger. really. you can control yourself and the airplane to do a standard airport approach. control your speeds, control your decent, and have plenty of runway left to stop. the only time I need to slip is for MY fun. so you have it. just land a normal landing, take off with a normal take off and you can leave the flaps stationary in the normal flight mode. OFF.

[Slyfox]

here is another one for me when it concerns a passenger. I give them a choice. that choice. do you want to go in the kitfox or the rv. I always get a response back of, the rv, yayaya please.

[Slyfox]

ok that wasn't fair. I've had people respond back with: I will take a ride in both. I will have to say, I have yet slipped with a passenger in my kitfox, no need. It will slow down just fine for a normal landing. sorry the slip is my fun only. landing with flaps at least in a model 4 is NOT needed. and with 1800 hrs I can say they can be tied to the frame and never used.

[Dave F]

ok that wasn't fair. I've had people respond back with: I will take a ride in both. I will have to say, I have yet slipped with a passenger in my kitfox, no need. It will slow down just fine for a normal landing. sorry the slip is my fun only. landing with flaps at least in a model 4 is NOT needed. and with 1800 hrs I can say they can be tied to the frame and never used.

We should all realize that some have limited the travel on their flaps, so full flaps on one KF 4 might be 33 degrees and the next one full flaps is only 15 degrees or so.

I have posted in the past about flaps and their benefits on the model 4 for what I have found in over 2,000 hour on Kitfox IV model alone. I have only flown Kitfox models 1,2 and 4 but many other types homebuilt and cert up to DC3.

Mine = 33 deg down full
take off - will help with half flaps
will help even more by giving full deflection to break sticky surface
-eg deep snow
-wet snow
-Mud
-glass water - on floats.
-even all water take offs in hotter weather.
There is no arguement here.

Landing
up to half flap for me was plenty and never found any benifit to deploy and more. They did help. I also ran Vgs and they helped a bit as well.
( there are some negatives on Vgs but that another topic. )

On model 1 and 2 you are limited to about 10 to 15 degree max deflection and I really never found much benefit on these models for take off or landing. Slight gain but not huge.

Want to learn to land shorter ?
- learn your plane better.
Hone your slow flight skills at altitude - fly without an airpseed indicator to really learn your plane.

You have all seen my movies on youtube-- they speak for the great attributes of the Kitfox and how much fun you can have.

It is up to you to get maximun performance from both your plane and your self.

[Slyfox]

Want to learn to land shorter ?
- learn your plane better.
Hone your slow flight skills at altitude - fly without an airpseed indicator to really learn your plane.

Thanks Dave,
I really love this statement. I agree 100% on this. In fact the best way to know your fox is to go up to altitude and play with it.

when I land I never look at the airspeed. I'm looking out the left window. yup, that view out the front sucks. I also have clear glass on the lower portion of my door. that way I can also watch the wheel touch the ground.

the fox is a very fun machine to fly. happy flying

[Esser]

Perhaps it's the glider pilot in me but I always coming in high and slip down not necessarily aggressive but I do slip. When I got my private license the most annoying thing for me was the fact that a C172 does not slip at all compared to a glider.

The way I look at it, Altitude is my friend. You can always trade it for something. I don't like dragging in on the prop. I always think of what were to happen if the engine quit. Just my thing I guess.



with the way these airplanes fly. you should not need to slip with a passenger. really. you can control yourself and the airplane to do a standard airport approach. control your speeds, control your decent, and have plenty of runway left to stop. the only time I need to slip is for MY fun. so you have it. just land a normal landing, take off with a normal take off and you can leave the flaps stationary in the normal flight mode. OFF.

[Slyfox]

you still don't need to slip with a very short approach. I do that all the time, I to hate long drawn out patterns, you know the Cessna airline approaches. I can do a short approach, power off, no slip and land. I call that my normal approach.

[n85ae]

I absolutely guarantee you will not do this with N85AE. If you fly a tight
pattern say 800-1000 AGL, chop power, and don't use any slip you will
watch the entire runway disappear under the plane. It floats forever. I
suppose you could hold the nose up until the sink rate gets high enough
at around 40-45 mph however this is not something I like to do, since it's
easy to encounter a 10-15 mph wind shift which will yank the rug right out
from under you since then you're getting into stall land around 35.
(45-10=stall)

Slips are the way to go, with my airplane to get down from a tight pattern.

I think the point is that the planes are not all the same, and a light model 4,
is an entirely different airplane than a heavy series 5.


you still don't need to slip with a very short approach. I do that all the time, I to hate long drawn out patterns, you know the Cessna airline approaches. I can do a short approach, power off, no slip and land. I call that my normal approach.

[Slyfox]

I guess it all depends on what you call a short approach. I have done a 800ft, slow to 50, drop out and land doing a base to final over the numbers, but you have to slip, major. Now if you call a short approach about 1000 ft out. I can do that without a slip.

I think a lot of things depend on where you turn your final. what speeds you are using. my 3 point speed over the numbers is no more than 50. wheel landing about 55. and yes a full stall landing is about 35. your idle on your plane is going to be an upmost importance. I have mine about 500. if you have an idle at 1800, you are going to float down the runway.

I have an inflight adjustable prop, I have that flattened to take off setting when landing. that helps a bunch also. and finally you don't have to slip, at least I don't, if I find I'm a little to fast, push in the rudder and keep the wings level, this is on short final. that' opposite aileron, weird to do but works great. now I don't know if my vg's allow me to do that or not, so try that up high before doing it low.

[Frontier Fox]

I decided to revive this thread because I am almost to the point of riveting/bonding the flap detent brackets in place. The original post made mention of putting an additional detent between 1/2 and full flap, so this would be the 3/4 position. Correct?
I’m wondering if this practice is still being done. Should I put the detent in the 3/4 position? Furthermore, what about the 1/4 position? Would there ever be a need to do this?
One other quick question has to do with bonding the detent brackets. I got the quick build kit so the detent brackets are stainless. Should I use micro balloons in the hysol since the console is aluminum?
So far the build has gone pretty well. This is my first build, and probably will be my only. My pace seems pretty slow but I’m trying to anticipate two or three steps forward and not make any costly mistakes.

As always I appreciate the everyone’s input.

[desertfox1]

For flying with much slower airplanes I added a 1/4 notch. It lowers the
nose and makes me feel more comfortable, For all other flying in the 7ss
speedster normally 1/2 flaps for takeoff and landing.

Phil

[desertfox1]

Oh by the way, that was in my old Vixen with aluminum detents. in my
new 7SS speedster, stainless detent, only factory notch. My friends 80hp
model 3 has been replaced with a 7. :0

Phil

[jiott]

I don't know how many are doing it, but I certainly would recommend adding a notch between 1/2 and full flaps. If you trained with Stick&Rudder this 3/4 flap will feel like their full flap (same with al SLSA's). It will give you a nearly full flap setting that is fully trimmable. I don't see what is not good about it; if you don't like it, don't use it. It is certainly WAY easier to do before you permanently install the flap detent bracket.

[David47]

It sounds like the factory full flap detent is somewhat less than the kit detent. As I flew with S&R, I might just add that extra 3/4 position if that’s the case Jim. Thanks for the advice.

[DesertFox4]

I cut a 1/4 flap position notch into the stainless brackets on my 7SS flap mechanism. Took a while. Great for flying with slower aircraft like Cubs, Rans, Zeniths, 172’s ect.;)

[Norm]

I cut a 1/4 flap position notch into the stainless brackets on my 7SS flap mechanism. Took a while. Great for flying with slower aircraft like Cubs, Rans, Zeniths, 172’s ect.;)

Slower aircraft like 172's :);)

[DesertFox4]

Slower aircraft like 172's ]
Yep. The 145 hp versions anyway.

[Frontier Fox]

I went ahead and put a 3/4 flap notch in today and clecoed the detent bracket in place. Think I’ll go ahead and put in a 1/4 notch also. Part of my future “mission” is going to be slow level flying so a 1/4 position might just be the ticket.

[Scot]

Lots of good discussion on this thread about flaperon use. What I am wondering is what would be Vfe for a Kitfox 4 1200 ? Obviously no lower end other than stall speed, but is there a published number for max flap extended speed ? I have not found anything. My aircraft is undergoing the Airworthiness Inspection, and the DAR is pretty adamant about having all the gauges marked with operating ranges, including the white ring for flap speeds such as seen in a 172.

[DesertFox4]

Scot, my model 4 Classic was 80 mph.

[jiott]

Its also 80 mph for the SS7. This is for full flap extension. I have never seen a speed limit for 1/2 flaps; has anyone else seen anything for 1/2 flaps? I nearly always wait for 80 mph before pulling any flaps at all because its a good habit, but I have never been concerned if I happen to pull 1/2 flaps at 85-90 mph.

[jrevens]

Its also 80 mph for the SS7. This is for full flap extension. I have never seen a speed limit for 1/2 flaps; has anyone else seen anything for 1/2 flaps? I nearly always wait for 80 mph before pulling any flaps at all because its a good habit, but I have never been concerned if I happen to pull 1/2 flaps at 85-90 mph.

Same here, Jim. I use 1/2 flaps for take-off & landing, as recommended by Paul at Stick & Rudder. I've tried every which way of course, but prefer that. When first starting to fly my Kitfox, I'd occasionally forget to retract them and have gone right through 90 mph before realizing it. Paul commented to me that the newer style flap mounting bracket design was stronger than the original design, although I've never personally confirmed that.

[Av8r3400]

I have the flaps on my plane (Classic IV-1200) set up with a 3-position gate. 1st notch is ~8º, 2nd is ~12º and 3rd is full throw of 24º.

Since the "flaps" are also the ailerons, my first notch of flaps is usable at 100 mph. 2nd notch at 80. 3rd notch at 60. That's my method...