PDA

View Full Version : Rudder Pedal and toe brakes.



sdemeyer
05-09-2009, 11:04 PM
I'm having difficulty not keeping my feet off the brakes, especially when landing. I can't see any way to rotate the toe brakes farther forward to make it easier for me and sliding my toes between the rudder pedal and toe brakes is not working well.

I've attached a picture to help visualize what I'm referring to. Any suggestions on how I can remedy this?

This is on a model IV -1200

Thanks,
Scott

Skybolt
05-10-2009, 12:12 PM
Scott I don't know / or I am not familier with your rudder pedals.
I am attaching a picture of my footwear. Notice the E weldment that the ball of the foot and the toe area can make contact. Yours is more of a C shape.

You must have an early Model 4, the later units went out with a beefed up weldment notice the gusset at the right angle. This was to prevent the tube from splitting.

Anyway, I have to stretch a little to get pressure on the brakes.
Can you adjust the master cylinder top bracket shortening the reach?

SkyPirate
05-10-2009, 12:18 PM
if you look at the welded on tab for the brake cylinder location of the two different photo's,..they are in different places,..this might be an issue if you swapped them out,..but...if you removed the stock older model 4 actualtor pedal and added a similar lower piece ..amking it the same "E" config ..this might cure the problem

Slyfox
05-10-2009, 12:52 PM
skypirate is right, if you go to the E type brake pedal, I think things would be better. If you have your foot on the bottom of the E it forces the brakes off.

SkyPirate
05-10-2009, 01:52 PM
377

a sketch of a possible fix

sdemeyer
05-10-2009, 02:28 PM
Thanks a million. I will change to the "E" configuration.

Scott

JimS
05-12-2009, 09:08 AM
Scott,
Had the same thing with my Model IV.
I cut a couple threads off of the stem coming out of the top of the break cylinder and also a bit off the U that screws on it. You don't need to take a whole lot off to move the break pedal out of the way. I may have even run a couple more threads on the stem I can't recall but there should probably be 4-5 threads engaged when it's done.
JimS

dholly
05-12-2009, 11:28 AM
another idea

dholly
08-20-2010, 12:35 PM
Well, I need to revisit this subject.

Is there anyone with a M-III that has installed the "E" toe-pieces to help keep big feet off the brakes? I see a few in the photo galleries and need to know if simply re-welding new tabs on the "E" style toe pieces to re-locate the brake cylinder rod top attach will work? Ie., can I keep the same brake torque tubes, master cylinders, lower master cylinder attach points, etc.?

I seem to recall (but did not find) some comments where someone used passenger side "E" style toe-pieces from a M-IV on the pilot side of a M-III with all other parts reused, but did have to relocate the toe-piece tab(s). Can anyone in the know give me the particulars please before my plane ends up on it's back? :eek:

Thanks

sdemeyer
08-21-2010, 06:50 AM
Dholly, my friend, who happens to be a master crafstman, made up a set of pedals for me. They really transformed my airplane and I highly recommend something like this. Also, another thing that greatly helped was rotating the pedals forward about 2 inches. We did this by making longer the rudder cable straps where the cable connects to the rudder horn.

If you do not go this route, I have a brand new, never installed set of E pedals for my KF IV if your interested.

cap01
08-21-2010, 02:08 PM
scott , looks nice , the carpet made a big difference . did you ever install the nonskid on the peddles ?

kszaronos
08-21-2010, 02:54 PM
Scott, I was having the same problem. I have size 12 feet and am a new sport pilot. I had some inital taxi's that I was riding the brakes and locked them up.

I just learned to taxi,take-off and land have only my toes on the lower pedals. I will adjust for more comfortable flying once up with my entire foot.

Good Luck!

dholly
08-21-2010, 07:13 PM
Hi Scott-

Thanks for the pics and the offer. If they are the passenger side toe pieces I might take you up on in it. I was able to find the post tonight on Matronics (pasted below), and I believe that's what I need. I think Mark posts here, if he's done this pedal swap and sees the thread maybe he'll chime in.

As a temp fix, I did make up a pair of tapered pedal pads this a.m. They have a bit more surface area than your pedals (which look great!) and ended up adding about 3/4" additional height above the rudder pedal cross piece. The brake toe piece is now more or less on the same plane as the pedal face rather than canted forward, and just having more surface area seems to have made a big difference in comfort.

Jury is still out on braking efficacy however, due to the ankle angle necessary to actuate the brakes at full rudder. I might try moving from the first hole on the cable adjustment strap at the rudder to the second. But the problem with that is I really don't need the pedals any closer, and it just seems you would need to screw down the cylinder rod end to keep off the toe pieces because the whole pedal cants towards you. Seems like that only compounds rather than fixes the problem?? Not sure if I have any adjustment left on the rod end anyways.

Either way, I don't think this kind of temp fix can't replicate the ergonomics of the E-pedals, so I'll probably head that direction if I can locate a set. Below is the post I found about the pedal swap in case it is of use for others.


The brakes on my 3 bothered me too. A fix that helps a lot is using the KF 4 style E pedals.

On the 3 the brakes are connected to the rudder bars, not on the floor. To make them fit you need the 4 style E pedals from the passenger (right) side. They will fit pilot (left) side on the 3.

I had to make two mods. One is that the tube that went through the pedal (hinge tube?) was too short so I welded on an extension. The other was that the lower corner of the tab that connects to the brake tended to hit the clevis so I had to grind on it some.

You could probably get Kitfox Aircraft to make you a pair: just ask them to make the center tube a couple of inches longer than normal. You can cut it to length with a hacksaw.

With that done you can keep your feet on the pedals without actuating the brakes by mistake.

I did still have the issue others have mentioned. With the pedal near the firewall you have to push hard with your toes to actuate the brakes. The right foot is worse because I have big feet and the top of my shoe would catch on the throttle bell-crank and cables if I didn't think to keep that foot low.

I also adjusted the cable length to compensate for my long legs and big butt. In the end the cockpit is large enough to keep me comfortable even on long cross countries.

Have fun,

Mark

sdemeyer
08-22-2010, 06:48 AM
Dholly, The E pedals are pilot side and the tabs would need to be cut off and relocated for them to work, at least on my KF. I rotated the pedals forward (farther away) to give me more leg room.

dholly
08-22-2010, 09:23 AM
Hey thanks for checking Scott. Since I like the feel of the big, flat surfaces, I think I will attempt to bend up a new set of pedals like yours. Besides, it's easier to make the 90*degree side bends in a vise than re-weld the tabs with my big stick welder. :)

At the risk of really pressing my luck, does anyone happen to have L/R templates for fabricating this style pedal? I'm 45mins from the hanger unfortunately, so the trial and error approach is pretty time consuming.

sdemeyer
08-22-2010, 10:09 AM
Here are the dimentions from mine.

sdemeyer
08-22-2010, 10:11 AM
Some more..

sdemeyer
08-22-2010, 10:13 AM
One more picture

cap01
08-22-2010, 04:57 PM
one of scotts new peddles was found in a abandoned hangar in unused condition probably for a later model kitfox , the other is a very good homemade copy . if both are made from scratch , attention should be paid to line up the top brake cylinder attach point with the brake cylinder . both of scotts peddles had to be moved about 1/2 in to the right to get them to line up .

dholly
08-22-2010, 07:17 PM
Woohoo and --in my best Howard Dean impersonation-- yeehaw!!! :)

Thanks alot for the pics Scott, that is just fabulous support and very much appreciated. Pretty neat story about finding the pedal in an abandoned hanger too. I guess the old adage 'one man's trash is another man's treasure' comes to mind.

Re: cap01's comment... I do see the need for a spacer collar to keep the one side in line with the brake cylinder clevis end (Measure 'C' in my pic).

If Scott's pics and dimensions are of the 'corrected' pedals, it appears there is ~3-1/4" width between the pedal ears which should correlate with Measure 'B' in my pic (from the C/L of the brake cylinder clevis to the end of the horizontal toe piece bushing tube, not end of toe piece tube).

I'm going to take the chance that Measure 'A' for both of our planes is the standard OEM length and make up a set based on the pics. Can just cut the missing spacer collar length on site. Thanks again for the help all, hope this does the trick.

napierm
08-22-2010, 08:57 PM
Attached is a picture of the rudder pedals on my KF4 project. I meant to take a picture of my KF3 rudder pedals but forgot about it. Anyway, take a close look.

The pilot's side pedals on the KF4 the "E" points to the right and the brake cylinder is on the left.

The passenger's side pedal on the KF4 the "E" points to the left and the brake cylinder is on the right.

So... Take a KF4 passenger "E" pedal pair, make the center tube longer for the wider KF3 pedal (OR, cut the KF3 pedal narrower) and viola, a set of "E" pedals for the pilot side on a KF3.


Cheers,

Mark Napier

Av8r3400
08-23-2010, 05:00 AM
Funny-- I posed this exact question to the McBeans at Airventure. They told me that the "E" peddles would not fit as a replacement of my "C" peddles on my IV.

I will agree with everyone that the geometry of the "C" peddles is horrid.

napierm
08-23-2010, 08:04 AM
I bought the pair for my KF3 on ebay (where else) for cheap. The builder decided that he was never going to install the passenger set. He had a couple of pictures of them and I thought they would work for me. The only real change was to weld on a tube to extend the center pivot to match the width of the KF3 pedal. Even my lousy welding skills are OK for this since I had to grind down the weld to make the shaft smooth again anyway.

Much better than the "C" because my size eleven shoes were pressing on the brake as much as the rudder pedal. I couldn't adjust the master cylinder length make that geometry work for me.

Next time I'm out at the hanger I'll take some pictures.

dholly
08-29-2010, 07:33 PM
I made up a set of pedals based on the measures posted, hoping they were the wider 'corrected' size mentioned that lined up with the brake cylinder clevis. Just a heads up for others, they are not.

I was able to salvage the day by reusing the old bolt with some new washers, shear nuts (fit perfect between the clevis legs) and cotter pins in the travel bag. With the cylinder straight upright, the bolt was just long enough to reach into the far clevis leg and the whole assembly is surprisingly solid. I may simply use a longer drilled bolt to allow a castle nut outboard and see how it holds up.

I can say this is a HUGE improvement over the original ergonomics, well worth the effort. In addition to making the pedal wider (I think 4" between ears vs. the 3-1/4" Scott showed above would be about perfect on mine), I would also move the clevis hole out an extra 1/4" to 2-1/4" from the pedal face vs. 2" for a bit more clearance if you also plan to extend the cable adjusters and angle the pedals further forward.

Thanks for the motivation.

jdmcbean
08-30-2010, 09:08 AM
Funny-- I posed this exact question to the McBeans at Airventure. They told me that the "E" peddles would not fit as a replacement of my "C" peddles on my IV.

I will agree with everyone that the geometry of the "C" peddles is horrid.

Sorry.. do not remember that question.. but they should work fine...

We have also been working on a kit for the purpose of using the flat style pedals....

Ehfox
09-01-2010, 02:41 PM
Are there any pictures of these cut-off E pedals or other designs?

napierm
09-02-2010, 11:43 AM
OK, Pictures.

napierm
09-02-2010, 11:47 AM
The stock KF3 (pilot) and KF4 (passenger) pedals are white. The KF4 passenger pedals with the longer hinge tube to fit on the KF3 pilot side are yellow. Simple, yes?

Lion8
11-16-2010, 01:43 PM
Nice photos Scott. I am bringing back a model IV. Currently fabricating the template for the new engine I got (thanks Doug). While I have nothing in front, I want to weld reenforcement plates on the torque tube and fab up the 'E' type rudder pedals. When I try to remove the bolts on either end of the torque tube, they just rotate and do not come out. Can anyone tell me how to remove these bolts?, or maybe a drawing of the torque tube assembly? Before I weld, I need to know what is inside these tubes. Thanks bunch, Tom, NJ

napierm
11-16-2010, 02:12 PM
There is a plastic bushing in the tube and a locknut on the end of the bushing. You are turning the bolt and the locknut is turning too. The bracket has to be unscrewed from the floor and if you are lucky the rudder bars will just come off the bushings.

If the plastic bushings are stuck in the rudder bars (tubes) then you will have to get them out. If "none too gentle" methods don't work then to avoid damaging the rudder bar you will need the world's longest socket extension to reach the locknut (assuming the other end came off OK) so you can get the bolt off. Then the plastic bushing can be drilled out to avoid damaging the rudder bar.

On my III I turned my bushings down a little bit so they wouldn't stick again.

FWIW,

Mark Napier

jtpitkin06
11-16-2010, 09:09 PM
I’m a little late joining this thread, but I do have a suggestion for modifying the rudder pedals.
Most builders have noted the pedals are at a very steep angle or in some cases reversed angle making it difficult to keep big feet off the brakes.
I fixed the problem by relocating the rudder and brake cylinder pivot mounts aft by 2 inches. This allows the entire rudder pedal assembly to rotate to a forward lean, yet keeps the pedals the same distance from the pilot. Now the pedals are at a natural angle. It takes a deliberate toe extension to apply the brakes.
John Pitkin
Greenville, TX
SS7

Peteohms
10-28-2011, 03:14 PM
Sorry.. do not remember that question.. but they should work fine...

We have also been working on a kit for the purpose of using the flat style pedals....

John, How is that kit coming?

rawheels
08-12-2013, 08:31 AM
Sorry.. do not remember that question.. but they should work fine...

We have also been working on a kit for the purpose of using the flat style pedals....

Did this upgrade kit ever become a reality?

Olle1975
09-03-2014, 11:24 PM
I hope, I'm interested too!

Olaf