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bbryan
05-02-2009, 04:35 PM
Building a 1991 Kitfox 3 with the 13.5 gal. fiberglass wing tank. Has anybody had any luck using these or should I invest the extra bucks for the poly tanks. Is it even legal to burn Ethanol based fuel? I hate to spend the extra money but fibers or leaks is something I don't want. How about sloshing? How well does the 582 run on car fuel? Anybody have a source for replacement tanks. Its such a nice looking tank I hate to waste it. Wont the filter catch the fibers? "I need answers man!" please!

Mnflyer
05-02-2009, 06:23 PM
Hi, I wouldn't even consider putting that ethanol crap in my planes tanks, it has the nasty effect of dissolving fiberglass resin. It has a tendency for phase separation and taking on water.

Robin G
05-02-2009, 07:19 PM
I'll be interested to follow your progress. I am flying one of the older models, also a 3 with 13 gal wing tanks and a 582 blue head. To date I have only burned avgas. There are different gasket specs for auto gas. Today, we were replacing the screen on one of the fuel filters and were planning on replacing the rubber gasket as well, until we noticed it was specifically for car gas, not to be used with avgas. So. I'd be careful with introducing corn squeezins. Do everything you can to make sure the machine keeps running without incident, even if it means a few more cents per gal. Incidents will always cost more. Keep in touch.

robin g

SkyPirate
05-03-2009, 09:48 AM
I have had some bad experience with fiber glass tanks,..the bi plane in my photo album had fiber glass tanks and it is one of the reasons why I grounded it and donated it to the kids park ,...
a product is made to line the interior of motor cycle tanks ,,which can be applied to steel ,..plastic,,fiber glass,.to repair leaks .it is a two part mixer,.it also has the ability to be used with any fuel .and for the life of me I can not remember the brand name ,..but ,..don't give up yet,..when I was in need of this material ,..I went to a motor cycle dealer and asked if there was such a product,.. after a few moments of searching ,.
they reappeared with this product,..if I remember right on the price it was around $50.,..when using it ,..you must be able to rotate the tank in all dirrections,..or ."splash" it around inside well enough to completely cover the interior.
I used this on a phantom ultralight fuel tank,..after finding fibers in the fuel filter,.from the fiber glass tank,...after applying the "mix" ,..it totally eliminated any fibers in the filter,..I used both av gas and auto gas in that plane,..

SkyPirate
05-03-2009, 10:36 AM
I'm thinking maybe the viscocity of the resin would be one problem,..as for it's ability to withstand different fuels ,..I do not know,..but if I remember right ,..there was a guy who used the epoxy resin on a RV fuel tank and had a problem with it ,..not sure if it was from using the resin or not ..but the bubble on the bottom of the tank all but fell off once he put fuel in it,..if this was the area he used the epoxy resin or not ,..I am not sure,.and last I knew,..if anyone was in need of RV parts,..that plane was grounded do to poor construction or I should say ..never got its airworthiness ticket,..it is complete ,..or was last I knew..including a brand new lycoming,..size I am not sure,..and avionics..it's located in NH,..I'm sorry to say my contact concerning the RV has passed on,..but ..he flew out of Keene NH,..and someone at that airport might possibly know if it's still available.

lbushrod
05-03-2009, 03:35 PM
I have read about this subject on many forums and decided that money is the only consideration on what type of gas to use. The percentage of alcohol in mogas is rising from all I can gather so using mogas is like infecting your tank and engine with a virus of sorts. Some get sick, others survive.

In particular, I don't like sloshing gas cans in my car to the airport or pouring gas from a can all over my wings. Most of the fields I operate out of do not have mogas so I opt for avgas. My Jabiru will burn either, my 582 did well with avgas.

More expensive? Yup but the PITA factor - Pain in the ----, wins me over. I put my clear fuel filters to the front of the cockpit so I could monitor fuel flow and easily notice particulates that might be gathering. I don't have any trouble with deterioration that I am aware of.

Pete

DesertFox4
05-03-2009, 04:20 PM
Pete,

I concur on the Av-gas use. One fill up of alcohol laced fuel dissolved my fuel tanks resin after less than a week sitting in the hangar. As I fired up to taxi to the ramp my engine went into convulsions. I discovered both carbs "fogged" throughout with a brown sticky substance which of course was dissolved resin. Three hours of work on each carb with two cans of carb cleaner each , several carb cleaning wires to remove the crap from the little tiny passageways and a couple brass brushes along with two complete carb overhaul kits later it ran fine. NO MORE SQWEEZINS' going through my Kitfox. It doesn't agree with its delicate constitution. I think the engine will digest it fine but the Kitfox tanks of that day and some fuel lines don't do as well. Now I know some use alcohol and have no difficulties but I did not fair as well as some have. Take it for what it is worth.
I did since slosh my left tank with alcohol resistant slosh from Aircraft Spruce but that was only to stop a very small leak in the rear seam of the tank. The right tank is still virgin.
If that had occurred at altitude it was a guaranteed forced landing.

Just a headsup , the fiberglass strands that may be flushed out of a new tank are completely invisible when immersed in fuel. You will not know they are blocking even your see-thru fuel filters until your engine quits or you change filters and actually take the filter apart and check the filter element for contamination.
Good reason to change the filters after ground tests and just before first flight of a new Kitfox and then shortly after first flights change them again. If glass fibers are found in any of the filters keep the shorter change intervals up until the filters test clean. Could keep a new Kitfox pilot from having a very sad first flight experience instead of a celebration of a huge accomplishment.

lbushrod
05-04-2009, 10:30 AM
There are many pilots who only use mogas and they don't seem to have any trouble. But if you go on any engine/plane website and read what the alcohol does to the airplane engine or any engine not built to accept alcohol; what it does to tanks; look at the steps a person takes to prevent deterioration and the crap that winds up in your filters and carb; I have to ask, Why take the chance?

Let's say that your tank is okay with mogas, is your engine? Are you sure? When would you find out?

We play around in the sky and enjoy an activity that only a small fraction of the population gets to do. But this can be a dangerous sport, not just to you but the people on the ground.

Good rigging and proper maintenance is essential for safety every bit as much as your piloting skills. You can lay wrenches on the structure of your plane and you can check your engine exterior and feel comfortable. The first time that engine quits for real, you just entered a whole new world.

I would advise any person I cared about to avoid mogas and find ways to afford avgas if it is too expensive.

I have to ask again, Why take the chance?

Pete

Dorsal
05-04-2009, 04:36 PM
Not to jump in the middle of this but Rotax has approved use of 10% ethanol in the 9 series engines. I would like to know if anyone has had problems with series 7 fiberglass tanks and ethanol?

wildlandjon
05-04-2009, 08:26 PM
I work at a light sport training school and with the exception of when the plane/s go out of the area and need fuel at an airport where there is no MOGAS support, we use all mogas and have had only 1 problem. That was vapor lock when going from cruise and starting a decent the engine never quit but started to run ruff and fuel pressure dropped to near zero, turning on the backup pump on fixed the problem in the air. The problem was found to be the supply line being routed thru center line of engine. Our other aircraft had this line run outside the starboard carb. With the line rerouted problem was solved. We have over 1500 gallons used so far and this has been our only problem. I'll keep you all posted if any other problems turn up. By the way two of our planes have alluminium tanks one of which had the problem and our other has a fiberglass tank.

Regards Jon

Ps. California is talking about raising the required amount of ethanol to 15%.

Eric
05-05-2009, 09:06 AM
Hello all

In Europe we will have to use Mogas in a few years because the governments are very hard working to forbid AVGAS because of the lead in it.
We have the luck that the car fuel we buy is without alcohol.
And the price for Avgas in Holland is very high,about 3,25$ per liter(12,35$ per gallon)

SkyPirate
05-05-2009, 09:29 AM
here is just a thought concerning hauling fuel to the plane ,..the local Agricultural outlets have all different size fuel dispensors,..some that will go in a pick up bed ..some go on a small trailer ..complete with pump hose and nozzle,..and I believe if it's capacity is less then 300 gallons,..you do not need any special permit ,..just a thought .
I use one for hauling fuel for the backhoe and tractors,..if you watch "Craigs list" on the web..once in a while they have complete used fuel tanks, pump ,hose and nozzle for little to nothing,

Chase

lbushrod
05-05-2009, 12:37 PM
I just read a post on the Avid web site where there is a lot of discussion on this issue. The post indicated that the gas companies ship their fuel sans alcohol to the distribution center. The alcohol is added just before filling up the trucks for delivery. The reason: corrosion in the tank trucks.

It would be great if mogas was distrubuted for aircraft without alcohol and I understand that there are some companies looking at affordable alternates. Some marina's sell non alcohol fuel because it is bad for boat engines. I think the cost is similar to avgas.

I am way okay with mogas, it's the corn I am wary of.

I read the post concerning gas in Europe and how expensive it is. It is fun to realize that pilots are pilots regardless of country and they appreciate the Kitfox as much as we.

Pete

jdmcbean
05-07-2009, 09:38 PM
For the record.. We have tested our current fiberglass tanks and they are resistant to ethanol. We made a resin change in Jan 08 after testing the resin for a 13 mos period.

Tanks prior to Jan 08 are questionable. The resins from Jan of 96 to Jan 08 have had mixed results... some have reported issues and some have not. Prior to Jan of 96 they were sloshed with KREEM as a requirement.

We can make new tanks for all the models. The poly tanks and the installation has never been tested or proven and we do not endorse the use.

dholly
05-08-2009, 10:30 AM
John,

I'm trying my best to understand the various fuel tank options but I think much of my confusion surrounds the use of the words 'ethanol-resistant', 'ethanol-proof' and 'impervious'. With regard to your new fiberglass wing tanks, I do hope you take time to clarify.

I understand the older poly-ester resin tanks were incompatible with ethanol and that the later vinyl-ester resin tanks, while they exhibited much improved resistance, were not impervious to the effects of ethanol. In both instances, I believe, the official position from Kitfox has been to employ a tank sealer when mogas use was being contemplated.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I interpret "We have tested our current fiberglass tanks and they are resistant to ethanol." above to mean your new tanks are more resistant to the effects of ethanol than the previous versions, however, they are still not considered impervious.

In another post you said, "To date.. we have put some pretty harsh chemicals in them with no effect. For the last several months they have had both 10% and 80% ethanol fuels in them and no effect." Not quite sure exactly what, if anything, that infers but after months of discussion on multiple forums, nowhere can I find reference to 'ethanol-proof' or 'impervious' in any discussion of the new tanks.

Am I missing something? I simply can not find where this question has ever been answered directly, and doing so would be most helpful.

For the record please... what is your official position on their use? Are the newest tanks suitable and safe for continued use of ethanol-laced mogas without a tank sealer, or do you still recommend a tank sealer for continued use with oxygenated fuels?

Thanks

bbryan
05-12-2009, 06:31 PM
Thanks for the awsome response. A lot of good informaton and I Will be using avgas after reading all the feedback. Afterall, I'll be flying behind a 2 cycle 582 so I don't need more to worry about than that. I'm not bashing the 582 but I once had an Avid flyer with the 43hp Cuyuna. It always creeped me out, ran great though..
Thanks