All Things Financial

[kurt301]

I am wanting to start a thread on how everyone managed to find the funds for thier plane. Many people come as dreamers and finding a 100k for a new loaded LSA kitfox is not something many of us can do overnight.

So with that in mind, how did everyone get to where you are able to purchase your plane. How did you start saving for it or earning the funds to devote to that specific goal.

How did you save and or waste money during your persuit of ownership etc.

And lastly any information you can provide on cost of ownership etc would be greatly appreciated.

[HighWing]

Kurt,
The specifics of my case will be different, but might be similar to others. I bought an antique car - 1923 Marmon 4 Passenger Coupe for $2500 and spent ten years restoring it. It brought enough to cover the price of a Kit - back in the day. Then a guy who owed me some money gave me a 1957 Thunderbird as part payment. I did a cosmetic restoration on that and it became my engine. Panel and paint was budgeted from personal finances. Ongoing costs are insurance about $1100 a year - One million liability and $33,000 hull. I live in a residential airpark so my hangar is part of my house, but here hangar space rents for about $350 a month. Then fuel and maintenance which will vary according to use. Annual will depend on if you qualify for the repair certificate. It also helps if your significant other smiles when she sees you write big checks or lots of little ones, for that matter.

[kurt301]

Thanks for the response, I am close to a degree from Embry Riddle and I just earned my A&P certificate so I am not concerned with the labor costs on inspections etc.

I am currently in the military but do to retire soon. I love all things that fly and have been on helicopters for 17 years. I am supremely interested in the kitfox as I have no intention of anything beyond a sport pilot certificate due to the FAA's logic I think its best to stick with the sport. It seems the most capable of making a nice comfortable trip.

Anyway, While the area I live in is set to boom in the aerospace industry, Breaking into the civilian click has proven a little difficult. My local EAA chapter is not really that active but I will be checking out one in a neighboring town this weekend. I am hoping that by getting in the group I will be able to find some decent deals and work enough that I can get into a nice KF eventually.

Thats the plan anyway, I was just wondering how everyone else did it so maybe I can pick up a few tips along the way. Like the wife smiling when you write big checks ;) i wrote that one in my note book under tip#1

[Slyfox]

well lets see, I built a few transmission to purchase my kitfox. a few years later I needed a new engine. I got my money from the pilot bank in florida. still paying that off. Oh I'm a transmission tech.\
steve

[Esser]

I stopped flying more or less. But really, if you want to fly then buy a used one. You could have a nice little Luscombe for 20,000 or less and you are an A&P so the maint would be nil.

If you want to build that's another story.

[Slyfox]

also, if you want to build than you set up a monthy budget and that is how long it will take to finish your project. unfortunatly nobody really wants to fund an airplane, except motor for some reason. so you are left with beg borrow and you know the last one. so you get a credit card maybe and max that, you get a signiture loan or two. you borrow from anything, sell what you can, don't buy that new car, tell the kids no. you get the drill.

[Dick B in KY]

Started my SS7 as a retirement project. Some people build boats, redo cars (I've already done that), travel (coming up), etc. Ordered the basic kit, firewall aft and worked that while buying the small stuff needed to build. Saved some for the larger items and used tax refunds (if I got one). Took a lot longer than I would have liked to finish, but the build time spent was enjoyable and now I miss it. Flying off my phase one and then the real fun begins.

Dick B

[Dorsal]

I find variable operating costs to be pretty close to just fuel perhaps +10%. Fixed costs (hangar, insurance) are my biggest expenses but they go down per hour the more you fly

[ackselle]

Cost of ownership....hmmmm.... in the last 18 months, mods and additions included Grove gear, 29" Airstreaks, Grove 6" Wheels and brakes, 11" Matco tailwheel, Sandia transponder.... and maintenance/repair included 2 x Oil/Filter changes, 8 x spark plugs, new tail spring, repaired rudder when old tailspring broke, resovled oil consumption puzzle with new rings, just replaced both CDI modules.... oh yeah, just bought $350 worth of tools at OshKosh. So that's just about $12K worth of "ownership fun"!

And I put about 130 hours on my IV over the past year....@ 4gph, thats 520 gallons of fuel, plus insurance!

It's still cheaper, and more fun, than running a pair of snowmobiles!

OK.... back when I was young enough to be passionate about water skiing.... a boat was "a hole in the water where you put your money"

So now...an airplane is <fill in the blank> where you put your money.

[Slyfox]

ok, a person can go to the bar and drink it up. smoke like a chimeny and brake the bank. sit in front of the tv and waste your life away.

Or he can wake up in the morning, like 5:00 go to the airport and pull out his fox and go fly for an hour before work. PRICELESS

If you are doing what you love in life and it makes you happy, who cares the cost.

[SkyPirate]

Before i got married,.... I would pick up unfinished ultralight kits at a decent price, and finish them, fly them for 10/20 hrs then sell them, did that for a while, got lucky once, bought 3 planes for $500.00 and had 1 sold for $10k before i got it back to the airport, .... Then,... I got married,... We have 4 great kids between the 2 of us, 2 hers 1 mine 1 ours, the youngest, at 8 has got about 15 hrs flying with me, none of the others like flying, so,... I'm getting closer to getting another plane of my own, as long as life doesnt throw another preverbial wrench in the works
I miss my ole kitfox and still kick myself for selling it, but that preverbial wrench ratcheted back and life demanded that I sell everything I owned to finance finding my first daughter, no regrets, she was found, took 4 years to find her and 3 years of court , and I would do it again if need be, she is 18 now and got a good start on life :) so it's just a matter of time now, the right deal, the right time.... Patiently waiting :)

[War Eagle]

I belonged to an active EAA chapter that formed a group of people that wanted to build and together we made a group buy which gave us a discounted price for the kits. I worked for a company that allowed you to borrow against your 401k. So I borrowed the funds from the 401k and paid myself the interest and principal over the next few years. Instruments, paint, interior and custom mods were payed for on an ongoing basis from my salary, tax returns and stock sales.

[ken nougaret]

my thoughts have always been: don't eat out too much, don't pay interest(save your money by not living beyond your means), drive your vehicle til it won't safely transport you, do all the possible maintenance you can on any and everything(so you don't pay labor charges), and have an understanding wife! i'm not that smart or make lots of money but I'm thankful to be able to enjoy hobbies I love.
ken

[Dave S]

Hi Kurt,

The question you posed was pretty much a major one in my mind before I decided to build a Kitfox. I am not a rich person either.....Had to think that through. There will always be some unforseen costs but you can know and control most of it.

Some strategies I used to get 'er done.

1) Have your ducks in a row before you buy....have enough saved to pay for what you can & want to as you go. Paying on a loan costs money; however, rates are pretty low right now and some thought into interest rates vs cost increases with time delays is worth considering.

2) Know what you want, what you truly need in the plane and what you can pay for....among other things, that means not going ga-ga over the latest better than sex electronics to populate the acerage on your panel.....unless you really need that type of gear to do what you intend and/or can afford it. I went with second hand flight instruments of the "steam gauge" variety as I pretty much like to look out the window anyway. Keep it as simple as possible....less to break and less to pay for in the first place. A simple comm radio with a flip-flop, garmin Transponder; and, (yes) the 406 ELT since I saw no future in buying into the unmonitored system then doing the 406 later if it became mandatory somehow and paying for both in the long run. Nav?....$625 air/ground/marine GPS that provides far better and far more info than the old VORs on the rental planes. Only use the GPS for backing up the view out the window anyway.

3) Plan and follow through to get the plane built as quickly as your schedule will allow. A completed plane is worth more than parts (usually). To me that meant buying everything I could afford at once (the price always goes up if you wait) and doing something every day even if it was just sorting bolts. Here's the deal......paying construction insurance on a project for 18 years costs more than paying construction insurance for 2-3 years.....although this is entirely a personal choice, I could not afford to lose the kit to a tornado or fire so I did carry construction insurance.

4) Plan to build at your home or very near your home. You will get more done quicker that way which helps address item 3 above. Having to drive to a distant hangar will slow you down on the build and increase the cost of getting it done (drive for an hour a day or build for an hour a day:confused:).

5) Use sweat equity everywhere you can to reduce costs and maintain quality....for example I bought a bare frame rather than a powder coated frame because I had sandblasting equipment available anyway...blasted, epoxy primed and aerothaned all the tubing/airframe/etc. Admittedly a sucky job but was cheaper and I did got to thoroughly inspect all welds.

6) While the quick build kit is helpful with time on task, it does cost more than the basic kit. I went with the slow build option.

7) The factory upholstery is really nice; but I spent far less with the help of my wife and her sewing machine. Also sewed up the tail pad for transporting for a very few bucks.

8) When you complete your build...get your repairman's certificate immediately. Then you can be sure of the condition of the plane in your own mind and the condition insp is certainly cheaper. So Far, I have done 4 condition inspections. The most expensive was $28.12....28 for the position light lense I should not have dropped on the floor and 12 cents for a cotter key that needed replacing...


Screw-ups that cost money?

The big one for me was getting gouged by the old skystar/egt company that got my money and went bankrupt so I had to buy an engine, prop, spinner, gear, windshield, fuel tanks, engine ring mount, seat belts and a bunch of other items a second time. Basically know who you are dealing with.....John Mc Bean, the current company owner helped me get through this deal and get the plane done. John and Debra have proven their ethical conduct of their business. Of course, the missing parts threw my finances into a tizzy....having a supportive family including my wife who said.."you're not giving up now" and a son who said "Dad, I know how much this means to you....I'll get a loan for finishing my college degree" made it possible to get the plane done in 3 years. On a sidebar, skystar told me up front they didn't do escrow accounts because they couldn't always get their money from the bank (ostensibly because they didn't deliver the parts!). I believe John & Debra will do an escrow account....that tells you something:).

Little screw-ups.....not a lot.....had a spar tube roll off the counter and get dinged so that got replaced. Didn't like how the fabric fit on the elevator where the large and small tubes come together so ripped that off, did some fairing work and redid the fabric. Cut a piece of wire too short and cutting it a second time did not seem to help so I bought a new one. There will be a few little things that need to be done more than once.


Miscellaneous costs

Know your sales tax situation in your state....some charge sales tax on the value of the plane when you go to register it with the state. Here is where a more extravagant/expensive plane will cost you more....plan accordingly.

Ongoing costs

1) Basically hangar and insurance for fixed costs plus a small amount for state and fed registration. That will vary with your location. Insurance is cheaper the less you have in the plane.....100,000 hull insurance costs more than 30,000 to 60,000 depending on where you end up. Hangar prices vary...if you are lucky rural airport hangars seem to be cheaper than metro area hangars.

2) In my opinion, variable costs are pretty inconsequential....fuel burn 5 GPH auto gas if I am in a hurry and a lot less if I throttle back. The Rotax is pretty economical to run. Oil change when needed but all in all...not much of a concern.

3) If a person wants to get particular.....they can figure in the replacement cost of life limited parts like the engine and prop and tires; and there will be unforseen costs....but nothing like with a 40 year old certified plane in my opinion.The plane has been extremely good on basic maintenance...it should be...it's new. I did have to put in a new encoder last year between condition inspections but I can't blame the plane for that.....I installed it and had the shop calibrate it.

Cheers
Dave S
KF7 Trigear
912ULS Warp Drive

[DesertFox4]

Great information Dave S.
Thank you and all who have shared on this thread. :)
It is an important part of reaching a dream to logically assess the financial impact to achieve it. It's interesting to read the multitudes of ways to get that Kitfox kit into your shops and then into the air.

[Pilot4Life]

I second that...DF4. Dave S really took some of the "fear of the unknown" out of the equation for me and it gives me a hope for a quicker purchase...

Thanks DAVE S!!!

[SkyPirate]

looks like I might be finding out about the sales tax thing in the state of MO soon,..it's not bullet proof yet ,.but made an offer on a kitfox today :)

[HighWing]

Congratulations to Chase for his purchase, and my thanks also to Dave for a well thought out and detailed plan. Both my builds were similar to his in purpose and planning, though on the second, both kit and engine were previously owned which saved about $10000. Also the understanding and support from the rest of the household helped immensely.

[SkyPirate]

hasn't happened yet Lowell ,.but thanks :) the good thing is,..even if this sale doesn't happen ,.I'm ready financially :)

[DesertFox4]

Fingers crossed for you Chase. ;)

[Dorsal]

:D:D best of luck