Instructors responce on Kitfox/LSA

[Jason Rinebold]

This is the response I got from a local instructor that I inquired too about helping me out with my sport pilot instruction. Kind of a downer, but I guess we'll see how it goes if I can ever get my plane out to Idaho!


"The Kitfox 2 is a Sport Pilot qualified plane but I don’t instruct in them for a number of reason.

1. The useful load (legal maximum weight above the airframe) is 524 lbs. With full fuel, plus you and me, plus any density altitude (look up that definition), plus a low horsepower output engine, that aircraft is only safe to fly in temperatures below 60 deg F. (very easy to over load the weight & balance of the airplane)
2. The engine is a Rotax engine; They started their life on snowmobiles, and was “redesigned” to put on very small airplanes. The common perception is not if it will quit running, but “when”, If you look up in the NTSB aircraft accident data base you will find that the small homebuilt kit-type planes and the rotax powered airplanes are 6 times more involved in accidents and 8 times more fatal in aircraft accidents.
3. The Kitfox is a tail-wheel aircraft and there is a reason why the insurance companies charge a whole lot more to insure them. The ground handling characteristics ie; take off and landings, not even to consider crosswind landings, require a very experienced tail-wheel pilot to consistently accomplish safely.
4. Add to all of that, you being a hunter you probably have visions of looking for game from the air, ie; mountain country – which requires very high pilot skills. (see this mornings northwest section in the local paper about the fatal accident at Johnson Creek in the past couple days. This is a completely unsafe aircraft in any type of mountain country.

Now being in the airplane flying business, (started flying airplanes in the early ‘70s), there is a reason I don’t own this type of aircraft to instruct in. To my knowledge there are no traditional flight schools that have a Kitfox on the line for instruction in the Northwest.

I fully understand that learning to fly is an expensive proposition. However it is a lifetime investment that will bring great joy and utility to one’s life, - life long term. Consider this, if you had cancer would you go to the hospital in Grangeville or Orofino, or would you go to Spokane or Seattle? Would you trust the equipment in those small communities or would you want the best medical equipment available? A fair consideration of your life and those who fly with you – is exactly the same comparison. Scrimping on dollars when your life is on the line, - and it is – is the wrong way to go. Is there a fair number of these types of planes flying around, - yes there is – and a lot of the people in those airplanes lose their life in them too – many more so than in general aviation aircraft.

[Av8r3400]

There is so much wrong with that letter I don't know where to start.

First this instructor isn't qualified to teach dog walking from what I see. He appears only interested in teaching heavy metal spam can flying. Stay away from them.

Second, contact Stick and Rudder, their ad to the left, they are a well regarded flight training center that uses Kitfox aircraft right there in Idaho.

[SkyPirate]

Wow.....but sad to say I've heard that song before, i usually remind them that all aircraft are " experimental" from birth, and then i tell them which isle in walmart has the foot powder in it so they can get that nasty taste out of their mouth

[DesertFox4]

Jason, your experience unfortunately can be typical when talking to instructors about training in any experimental design, not just Kitfox. This is also why you are so lucky to have Stick & Rudder and Paul Leadabrand so close by. He's not your average instructor. ;)

[HansLab]

Absurd. They should withdraw the man' license.
Ever heard of the term Traditional Undercarriage (look that up). People flew taildraggers way before this man did - find another instructor - or better yet: a real one. One that sees the love of flying, and wants to encourage pupils in stead of scaring them.
Good luck in searching - it shouldn't be too hard. You just had bad luck walking into this Dinosaur..

[HighWing]

Jason,
I agree with the sentiments already expressed. I doubt I would use this guy for primary instruction in any aircraft. I am sure Paul from Stick and Rudder is every bit as competent - did I really write that - what I should have said is likely eminently more qualified, but more than that has a feel for the guy he is looking at rather than only the guy he sees every morning in the mirror. I used Paul for a four year late BFR after destroying my first Model IV and building another.

That being said, in our Idaho back country group we always had at least one Model IV being pulled along by a R-582. He was a cautious pilot and liked to fly the highways, but for the most part, the only way you would ever know who was who was that he was the guy who always opened the "hood" to check the oil when we stopped for fuel. It didn't climb as well, but it went every place its brothers went. I also noticed he said Rotax, not two stroke or any other reference to the engine which caused me to wonder if he had ever even seen a Kitfox let alone the engine.

One additional thought, when I trailered my Model IV to the across town airport for the test flying, I made up an internal spring tailwheel support device. Depending on how you decide to transport it, I would be happy to loan you the suspension device if you would think it necessary. It supports the tailwheel off the deck with a spring that would absorb much of the road impact. If interested and need more info PM me.

[Av8r_Sed]

OK, you ran into one seriously uniformed jerk but at least he didn't try to string you along.

I flew from Chicago to Boise to do my tailwheel transition training with Paul L. Yes, it cost me some coin and it wasn't in my plane, but he's a really good instructor and we ended up doing some great mountain flying once I got the basics down.

Paul was fairly knowledgeable on the differences between models and though we were flying in his SS LSA, he told me what to expect in my model III. This served me well in doing all my test flying and the year+ since the first flight.

The only thing Paul can't cover is how to operate your two stroke. Mine hasn't skipped a beat, but I'm very careful monitoring the EGT's, run it with a thermostat and make sure the jetting/ needle positions are correct for the conditions. Take the time to learn what they like and they're pretty good. Still, try to keep that emergency spot picked out.

[SkyPirate]

just curious ,..did you buy the black model 2 in jersey? nice looking model 2 there :)

[SkyPirate]

my model 2 insurance was $430.00 a year ,..that was 1999/2000 thru avemco

[akflyer]

WOW, I should be dead, I fly mine everywhere and every way that he said would kill me. I must be one lucky guy to still be flying!

too bad the paper you printed that email out on is rough n tough... that wont even make good butt wipe!

[SkyPirate]

Ok where is the like button ! Lol too rough for butt paper :)

[kitfox5v]

Remember The Wright brothers were crazy too. Sorry for your experience. I too had an instructor like that in the beginning. Gave him the boot and got a fearless cropduster / instructor. He always said I want let you do anything I can't fix. I will have to pick just as many sticks out my ass as you will, so don't worry.:D

[SkyPirate]

Ok we really need a Like button :) lol

[DanB]

Ok we really need a Like button :) lol

Good suggestion SkyPirate...best I could do ;)

5019

[SkyPirate]

Roflmao! Thanks Dan :)

[Jason Rinebold]

Thanks for all the replies. I'm excited to get the plane out here and I'll be headed to Stick and Rudder for my training. I did buy the black kitfox 2 that was on barnstormers from New Jersey. Now I just gotta get it to Idaho.

[SkyPirate]

nice plane,..and I know it is an open trailer now,..if your going to fly out and haul it back,..ask the seller if he has the transport braces,..they are a must ,..if he doesn't have them,..bring a cordless drill with you and pick up some conduit at a local hardware store in NJ and make some,..its not hard ,..they go from the float mounts on the lower longerons back up to the leading spar in wing fold position,..even if you find someone to haul it back for you,..request the seller or hauler to do this

Chase

[DesertFox4]

Congrats. on the purchase Jason and good call on Stick & Rudder decision.

[DesertFox6]

What a story; I had no idea doing situps under parked cars was now a requirement for new spam-can CFIs! I'll bet he even uses the FAA's vaunted "DECIDE" acronym while handling compound inflight-fire emergency procedures with the wings folding up and the tires melting flat! WOW! I wanna party with HIM! :D

I learn something new every day, Jason and I'll certainly second DesertFox4's congratulations on both of your sound decisions!

Always remember that Noah's ark was built by amateur experimenters; the Titanic was built by certified professionals! ;)

"E.T."

[War Eagle]

Always remember that Noah's ark was built by amateur experimenters; the Titanic was built by certified professionals! ;)

"E.T."[/quote]

This is going up on my wall.

Great quote. :)

[SkyPirate]

Yes that quote definitely deserved a big "LIKE"

[jdmcbean]

OK.. Thought you guys might like this.. these are bumper stickers we made several years ago.. 2003

Not sure I have any left..

[SkyPirate]

Like👍👍👍👍👍👍👍

[DesertFox6]

Anyone else in favor of funding a resurrection of those bumper stickers besides me? If only to send the first copy to Jason's preeminently pompous proctor of pilotage professorials? :D

"Everything of note was first built by an amateur; the "professionals" came later just to jack the price up!" ;)

"E.T."

[kitfox5v]

Kitfox5V here, I'm in. Will buy a dozen or so. I got a few to send myself, First instructor, ex wife, current wife, parents, children. List is too long:o

[DanB]

Kitfox5V here, I'm in. Will buy a dozen or so. I got a few to send myself, First instructor, ex wife, current wife, parents, children. List is too long:o

LOL...if that's the list we need to go by, send me a case of em.

[rosslr]

Well this is my first post to this forum. The primary reason I am writing is to endorse the recommendation to use Paul L from Stick and Rudder. I live in
Australia and flew to Idaho in May to visit the Kitfox factory and fly with Paul for a few hours to help me make a decision about the Kitfox. Not only did I enjoy about 9 hours flying with Paul over three days, but I also flew in John Mc Bean's plane so I had the benefit of comparing engines. And, yes, I have ordered a KItfox! Having recently sold a Mooney M20J which I loved, I wanted to do different type of flying - Mooney's are great for what they do - Kitfox's are great for what they do. I learnt a lot from the Mooney Pilots association programs BUT it was like learning from scratch in the Kitfox - not that it's difficult - just different. AND we were flying fairly warm conditions in the mountains with very acceptable performance - and I am heavier than Paul so we had a good weight up. My point is, select the aircraft for the mission and learn to understand the plane and its characteristics and performance. For instructors - like the one you encountered - to use one narrow and rigid framework for evaluating the worthiness of an aircraft, is worrying. My Mooney friends (who are nearly all 1000hr plus IR pilots who own their planes) are very supportive and interested in my decision. They love flying and understand that their are many different missions for which aircraft have been designed.

All good advice here Jason. Looking forward to building my Kitfox and picking brains of the knowledgable people on this forum. thanks in advance!

Ross

[Av8r3400]

Welcome Rossir. Post often and enjoy the build of your new plane!

[Wheels]

Wow Jason,
I came in late and just read that foul report from the "instructor.", I have a Kitfox Model IV 1200 with a 912. I bought it pre built and flown. I flew it for 450 hours out of my mountain strips in Clark Fork Idaho. I have flown it in all types of weather, on wheels and on skis. The plane is a dream to own. It answers the needs of my must haves list on every point and I enjoy the ownership.
I am currently upgrading some things on the plane and will be airborn within the month. Would love to see you flying a Kitfox and enjoying mountain flying, fun flying, utility flying, commuter flying, d just plain ... flying.
Go with Paul, he taught me how to fly the IV. He's grand.

[darrellpralle]

I went to boise for training with stick and rudder. since my 7 is tri gear, he borrowed a tri gear plane from kitfox aircraft. I had not flown in over 3 years, and then it was Cessna 172. after training I made first flight in my plane. No suprises, all went well. I strongly recommend stick and rudder