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dholly
05-04-2013, 12:38 PM
Anyone got a cross part substitute for this? Thnx

http://www.usautoelectric.com/store-products-182800-1950-Solenoid,-OEM-Denso-------182800-1950_1097852490.html

jamesmil
05-05-2013, 07:31 AM
i would think any 12 vote solenoid will work such as a ford solenoid from around the 70,s/80,s. it has two small post but only use the one marked "S" to energize the starter. hope this helps.

dholly
05-08-2013, 09:26 AM
Thanks Jim.

Not sure exactly what my issue is, but I have learned that starter solenoids are rated for intermittent duty and master solenoids are rated for continuous duty. Unfortunately, aircraft electrical is not my strong suit and chasing electrical problems is a real irk for me. I have received a suggestion to consider using this item as a replacement to the spendy Denso starter solenoid, should that actually be at fault:

MerCruiser Power Trim/Starter Solenoid (http://www.michiganmotorz.com/mercruiser-power-trimstarter-solenoid-p-3180.html) Item Number: 89-96158T @ $20

BTW, here's a description of my problem for anyone willing to take a crack at it... after several starts prior in the day, turn of the key brought only rapid clicking and no starter engagement. Just like what used to happen on my 1965 Ford Galaxy 500 high school ride when the battery died, but the aircraft battery charge was ok. Additionally, the clicking seemed to originate from under or the panel forward, not the master solenoid on battery box behind the seat.

Never the less, I removed both solenoids to test their operation. I could hear the plunger was free in the master solenoid when shaken, however, I did not actually put power to it. I did jump the starter solenoid using the car battery and determined the solenoid would activate with a single click.

At that point, I figured perhaps the starter solenoid was not grounding properly due to the firewall blanket. So, I cut that blanket away and remounted both solenoids only to have the same problem. An overnight charge on the battery also had no effect. I can't quite tell but, in addition to the starter solenoid clicking when the key is turned, it does seem that the starter might be spinning. Due to other noise around the hanger it's too difficult to hear or locate without having someone else turning the key.

Appreciate any comments or suggestions on what to pursue next? thnx

[EDIT] I would add that I removed the starter solenoid before testing to avoid creating any potential problems doing so when wired into the system. Now that it is back in, I would like to try another test.

Tell me if you think I will harm anything if I remove the wire from the spade terminal and, with a screwdriver, touch the spade terminal and the hot part of the solenoid to see if the starter engages. Shouldn't think so, however, don't need an expensive learning moment either!

I am also taking a voltmeter with me next time. Is this the correct method to test the starter solenoid?

- Set voltmeter to 12 volts.

- Attach the negative probe from the voltmeter to a negative ground.

- Attach the positive probe from the voltmeter onto the positive wire leading off of the solenoid that runs from the solenoid to the starter post.

- Turn the key on the ignition as if I was starting and read the voltmeter.

Am I correct thinking that if the solenoid needs to be replaced, the meter will read little or no voltage. If the solenoid is good, I will get a solid 12-volt-plus reading on the meter.

cubtractor
05-08-2013, 11:02 AM
I just got caught up on this thread. Having worked with the marine stuff in a former life, the marine solenoids work well. Mercury used the same solenoid for years on trim systems and on the starters of their outboard motors for years. If I had to replace mine, that's probably what I would get. FWIW

mr bill
05-08-2013, 12:09 PM
Your idea to test the solenoid with a voltmeter is a good way to test. I would not use the screw driver method. A good solenoid is a White-Rodgers 70-918 (used by Cessna) for less than $20. Don't buy it from Cessna though, as it will cost about $80. If you use it, mount it upside down and the small terminal goes to ground thru the starter switch.

jrevens
05-08-2013, 10:27 PM
...Never the less, I removed both solenoids to test their operation. I could hear the plunger was free in the master solenoid when shaken, however, I did not actually put power to it. I did jump the starter solenoid using the car battery and determined the solenoid would activate with a single click....

dholly,

I'm not sure what you mean when you "jumped the solenoid" with a car battery. Do you mean that you powered it's coil with 12v & it "clicked" once without the rapid continuous clicking that you could hear before? If so, it may be ok. If that's the case, you may have a bad switch (or a poor connection somewhere in the circuit). One test to perform is to use your voltmeter & touch the negative lead to the metal case of the solenoid, & the positive lead to the connector/wire that normally goes to the small tab on the solenoid (disconnect it from the solenoid) & measure the voltage when the switch (key switch?) is activated. If you don't have at least 12 volts, or whatever voltage your battery is producing at that time, then the switch or wiring is also likely bad.

dholly
05-09-2013, 11:23 AM
All - thanks for your help. I hoping to get to the hanger this afternoon with a meter and also double-check my starter post connection. Should know more then.

mr bill - is that a starter solenoid or a continuous duty master relay? If the latter, can I use a continuous duty master relay in place of an intermittent duty starter solenoid (I know you can't swap the other way)? I read some starter solenoids have internal diodes to dump excess voltage spikes, dunno if that is important on the 912 system?

jrevens - thanks, I will test the ignition switch too. About the 'jump test'... maybe not the best choice of words, but here's what I did. I grounded the Denso solenoid by holding the metal base against the car battery (-) post and used a long screwdriver to connect the (+) battery post to the Denso excitation post spade terminal. And, yes, I got a single clicks rather than multiple, repeated clicks or buzzing. After I reinstalled the starter solenoid, I get a solid buzz when the ignition key is turned to the Start position. [edit] I took a quick video with my phone but not sure how to attach here?

As I understand, one can supply power to either large post of a starter solenoid because it is internally grounded via the body or mount, and the coil is energized by supplying power from the switch to the tab lug. Jumping from the hot side post to the energizing tab lug with ignition switch wire removed from the spade lug will power the starter (or not if the starter solenoid is bad). Again, don't want to steer anyone wrong, but I can't see how this would hurt anything as a quick field test if you don't have access to a meter.

However -and one must be careful here- a master battery solenoid works just the opposite, ie. the coil is connected to the battery side internally and you turn it on by supplying ground to the other side of the coil. Read: don't put power to both large posts on a master relay unless you need a new one!

mr bill
05-09-2013, 02:13 PM
The White-Rodgers 70-920 solenoid is rated for continuous duty. The starter solenoid is model 70-914 and the small terminal goes to ground thru the starter switch. Approximate same price for either. An external diode is required with these contactors, 1N4005 will work nicely.

jrevens
05-09-2013, 03:15 PM
Some solenoids may have internal diodes, but you can add a diode to the coil circuit of any solenoid. The purpose is to protect the switch that you are using to activate the solenoid. Without it, the collapse of the magnetic field when the solenoid is deactivated, or turned off, can create a "spike" that can cause a bigger & much more powerful than normal arc to occur across the points, which can damage them. Again, damaged/burnt contact points on the switch are one possible cause of the chattering, as well as any other poor connection anywhere in the circuit for the solenoid coil.

dholly
05-10-2013, 09:41 AM
Battery is fully charged and no loose electrical connections found. Volt reading to hot side of solenoid with Master On is 11.95v. With meter (+) probe to spade connector from ignition switch line (disconnected from solenoid) and meter (-) probe grounded to solenoid mount is 11.95v. Volt reading with all solenoid leads attached and solenoid body mounted/grounded to firewall, meter (+) probe to solenoid output post, meter (-) probe grounded to solenoid mount and ignition switch turned to Start, is -3.11v.

Sure seems like the starter solenoid is shot. But I tested it outside the plane again (base grounded to (-) battery terminal, jumper wire from (+) battery terminal to solenoid exciter spade connector lug) and got the same result as before, ie. single click when activated, which suggests it is ok???

Frustrating. I've ordered the following replacement solenoid recommended on the Rotax-owners.com forum:

Replacement Starter Solenoid for Honda tractors:

P/N #31204-ZA0-003

Honda Code 2108298


http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21KER0MXZGL.jpg

jrevens
05-11-2013, 09:53 PM
Are you really sure that your battery is good? It sounds like you are using a digital voltmeter, & I believe you should be measuring somewhere around 14 volts with no load, not less than 12.

dholly
05-11-2013, 10:57 PM
John, it's a 2 year old gel battery and I believe it read 12.45v at the posts.

GT280flyer
05-12-2013, 03:57 AM
Doug, do you have access to a battery load tester? If so load test your battery (for proper amperage output-a battery can show good voltage and still have no amperage load capacity) and than also load test it at bat cable ends, disconnected from airframe (ground) and at solenoid (positive). Remembering frustrating starting problems in automotive repair. This will check the integrity of you battery and cables, have seen problems with cables that look perfectly fine.

dholly
05-18-2013, 06:20 AM
Well it was the battery after all. The old battery was an AGM type (absorbed glass mat), not gel as I thought. AGM is supposed to be superior to gel but can't say I would recommend a ETX Magna Power (Deka) AGM based on this experience.

Thanks again for the input.

wwillyard
05-19-2013, 06:18 PM
I haven't found a dissatisfied user with the Odyssey battery including myself.

Classic IV 912ul

dholly
05-20-2013, 07:34 AM
wwillyard-

Would you (or anyone) be able to confirm whether the Odyssey PC625 fits in the oem battery box and/or battery tray as included in the KF4-1200 kit w/ 912 FWF? Should have measured before leaving hanger...

thnx

wwillyard
05-20-2013, 08:12 AM
I can't speak about the 625, but I have the 680 and it doesn't fit the OEM box. The nice feature is that you don't need a box, just a bracket to securely hold the battery in place.

dholly
05-20-2013, 08:49 AM
Thanks. I ask because I know the rectangular PC680 won't fit and the more square PC625 looked like a better shot. Also, the PC625 specs looked a bit better to me and it is a bit less $$. If it slipped right into the existing battery box, all the better!

Specifications PC625

Pulse (5-second) Hot Cranking Amps (PHCA) 530 Cold Cranking Amps (CCA) 200 20Hr Nominal Capacity (Ah) 18 Reserve Capacity Minutes 27 Dimensions L x W x H (in) 6.7x3.9x6.89 Metric Dimensions L x W x H (mm) 170.2x99.1x175 Weight (lbs) 13.2 Weight (kg) 6

Specifications PC680

Pulse (5-second) Hot Cranking Amps (PHCA) 520 Cold Cranking Amps (CCA) 170 20Hr Nominal Capacity (Ah) 16 Reserve Capacity Minutes 24 Dimensions L x W x H (in) 7.15 x 3.00 x 6.65 Metric Dimensions L x W x H (mm) 181.5 x 76.3 x 167.8 Weight (lbs) 15.4 Weight (kg) 7

mr bill
05-20-2013, 01:09 PM
I am using the Odessey 545mj and had to lengthen the tray. The 625 is even longer, but it is a simple modification.