Kitfox Factory Fly-in 2013

[jdmcbean]

Kitfox Aircraft - Factory Fly-In
September 13th and 14th 2013

This year’s fly-in will be held in beautiful McCall, Idaho. McCall (KMYL) is the heart of the Idaho’s backcountry and is located 97 SM flying distance from Homedale (S66) and about 2 hours (107 miles) driving distance from the Boise Airport.
The day before the Fly-in, Thursday the September 12th, we will have Factory Tours for those that wish to come and visit the factory.
Overview:
Factory open for Tours Thursday Sept 12th 10am – 5pm
Sept 13th – 14th 2013 McCall ID Kitfox Fly in
Friday Sept 13th
Check in, Meet and Greet- 12pm – 5pm: Snacks & Soft Beverages will be served
Dinner Tickets for Saturday Banquet $15.00 per person available
Kitfox Informal Gathering:
7pm Salmon River Brewery 300 W Colorado St McCall ID
Salmon River Brewery makes craft beer using as many local and regional ingredients as possible. A restaurant and pub with outdoor seating in the summer, and frequently feature live music
Briefing for Saturday Breakfast Fly-Out
Saturday Sept 14th
Morning Fly out - Breakfast to a Back Country Ranch: Time and Location TBD
Morning and Afternoon - Enjoy McCall,
Shopping-McCall has many local shops that are full of unique items with a local flare.
Golf, Several Golf Courses in the McCall Area: Google, Golf Courses in McCall ID and choose the one that is right for you. Reservation for T-times would be suggested.
Lake Activities - Rent a Jet Ski from Mile High Marina and enjoy Payette Lake or just bask in the last of the summer sun on the Beach.
Saturday Evening 6:00: Kitfox Banquet Dinner advanced ticket purchase preferred Location TBD.
Come enjoy a great catered dinner by Edible Arts Catering a local McCall Catering company
Menu: Marinated Grilled Tri Tip & Chicken Breast, and all the goodies to go with.
We are required to give the caterers a head count by August 31st, 2013 so please help us out and purchase your tickets in advance. RSVP to Kitfox-Fly-In@kitfoxaircraft.com or give us a call.
Hotel Information
Kitfox Aircraft has arranged special room rate for double queen rooms for our Fly in at:
Best Western Plus 211 S 3rd St McCall ID. 208.634.2230. The Hotel is located directly across the street from the McCall Airport and is pet friendly.. These rooms are on a 1st come 1st serve basis. To reserve your room you must call the hotel direct and reserve a room. Just mention Kitfox Aircraft and book your room using your credit card & information. Kitfox Aircraft has a special rate for the double queen rooms of $118.99 per night. You have until Aug 13th to book your room at that rate through the hotel. After that date, rooms not booked will be released back for open booking at the normal rate of $139.99 per night.
There are many other hotel choices in McCall other than the Best Western. Here are just a few:
Hunt Lodge Holiday Inn Express 210 N 34d St 208.634.4700 1/2 mile from Airport
Super 8 McCall 208.634.4637- across the street from the airport
Americas Best Value Inn & Suites 208.634.6300 1.5 miles
Shore Lodge 208.634.1725 3 miles
RV Parks - Many in the area by the airport and by the lake.
One can also camp at the airport or at a local RV Park

[SkySteve]

John,
As always this will be a great Fly In. Kris & I will be there. Really looking forward to it, seeing old friends again and meeting new ones. The backcountry ranch breakfast is a great idea!

[DesertFox4]

Something new this year. Sounds great John. McCall is beautiful.

Folks, you'll want to try hard to get there this year. The factory fly-in is always a good time and now that it has gone to a bi-annual event you might want to start thinking about it early. I know I will.

[Dorsal]

Would love to but it is soooo far away :(
New location sounds very cool.

[Dave Holl]

I would like to go to the factory flyin, I will be flying in from England. I would like to do the factory tour first, is their anyone who would have a spare seat? I would also like to spend a few days with stick and rudder getting a conversion onto the kitfox as hopefully by then I will be close to flying my mk7!:)

[SkySteve]

So what is everyone thinking about the flyin schedule? I have been thinking about flying to Garden Valley on the 12th and camping there. Then on to McCall on the 13th. Anyone want to join us, or have any other ideas/plans?

[DesertFox4]

Steve- Last I heard, Phil and I will be flying up in one of his Kitfoxs. Not yet sure of the launch date but will head to Homedale first I suspect.
Looking forward to seeing everyone again.

[jamesmil]

it will be 1882 km, direct from 03nc to myl, I am planning on 3 days of flying with 1 lay day if needed. something I always wanted to do is fly across our country low and slow and the kitfox is the perfect plane for it.
the only thing that can throw a monkey wrench in my plans is weather as I promised my wife not to go if we had a hurricane forecast at that time. hope to see every one there. praying to the weather gods daily:D

[Av8r_Sed]

I'm hoping to make the trip from the Chicago area. Jimmy, might be nice to meet up at one of the overnight stops. How about posting your planned route when you get it worked out?

[Esser]

I was planning on going his year. But like Oshkosh, the new house is taking up too many resources. Ah well, it's worth it.

[jamesmil]

hi paul, my planned route to McCall is to make some wear around st. Louis the first day, hopefully a little west of there and then on to Cheyenne wo. the next day. from there I am planning to follow i80 to east of ogden ut. then north thru the lower elevations to Pocatello id then on to ether homedale or McCall. this is a pretty aggressive schedule but I do have four days planned for the trip out. it looks like some were around Cheyenne would be a good place to meet up and it would be nice to have company over the mountains. let me know what you think . thanks

[Av8r_Sed]

Jimmy, the I80 route west of Cheyenne sounds good. The only hitch is I'm aiming to camp along the way where possible. Cheyenne regional is a little too big for that. I haven't figured out all my stops yet. I'll PM you when I get a possible route worked out.

Anybody else following Jimmy's general routing?

[jamesmil]

sounds good av8r_sed. I'm real flexible on the stops for overnight. I'm not planning to camp but will be prepared to if need be.

[wwillyard]

Paul, I'm considering making the journey as well from 08c near Grand Rapids Michigan. My plan is to camp along the way. I'm not sure that I can handle a too ambitious flight schedule, but I suppose longer days would be easier to handle with company:-)

Bill W.
Classic IV 912ul

[Av8r_Sed]

Bill, I'd be happy to have more company along the route too. I don't think anyone will get any longer days than me given my cruise speeds.

Rubbing the old Foreflight genie, day one (Sept 10) for me looks like a Mogas stop and lunch in Boone, IA (KBNW) and then on to Lexington, NE (KLXN) for an overnight. I'll have to check with the FBO to see if there's camping allowed. They do advertise having a shower and friendly folks.

Day two I hope to meet up with Jimmy around Cheyenne then follow in his wake along the route he mentioned in his previous post. Following the I-80 corridor I'll need a fuel stop and then an overnight somewhere around Ogden.

Day 3 I hope to get to Homedale (S66) or if I've lost a weather day then straight to McCall.

Does any of this match up with what you're comfortable with? I haven't done a long cross country in my 'fox to date so this will be a good test. I'm sure the plan will change anyway when the trip gets underway.

[SkySteve]

What date are you guys planning on being in Ogden for your overnighter?

[Av8r_Sed]

What date are you guys planning on being in Ogden for your overnighter?

Steve, that would be Wed, Sept 11, weather willing.

[SkySteve]

Well then ... You all have a place to stay, FREE. My plane lives at the Ogden airport. I would be happy to pick you all up and bring you to Wilson's Sky Ranch for the evening. I plan to leave early on the 12th so it's easy to take you all back to your planes. We have 2 empty bedrooms you are welcome to. Plenty of lush grass if you want to camp. Shower, whatever you need. Might even find a cold beer.

[Av8r_Sed]

Wow, well there's an offer that would be hard to refuse. Should we put the Sky Ranch in the Foreflight comments for Ogden? :D

[SkySteve]

The airstrip won't be completed until next year. This fall we are installing a new pressurized irrigation system so when that is done the irrigation ditch, bridge and holding pond will go away, then ... a new 750 ft airstrip. A new airsock is now in place!

[DanB]

Sounds great Steve, I'll have to come up and check it out. ;)

[SkySteve]

Dan, yes by all means.

[SkySteve]

Just checked the bed situation in the 2 spare bedrooms. I had to physically look because that's not my deparent (if you know what I mean). There are 2 bedrooms. One has a full sized bed (for 2). The other bedroom has 2 single beds. They're all yours if you want them (I even checked and got the OK from the Spuosal Unit!

[jamesmil]

hi steve, thanks for the invite to overnight at your place. looks like we might be getting a convoy together for the trip, that would be great the more the merrier.

[SkySteve]

10-4. Bring it on "Rubber Ducky". We can make it work!
I'll throw in with you from Ogden on ...

[SkySteve]

Guys, here is some local info that will help you from Evanston, WY (EVW) to Ogden, UT (KOGD):

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff12/KitfoxSteve/OgdenUTLocalflyinginfo.jpg (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/KitfoxSteve/media/OgdenUTLocalflyinginfo.jpg.html)

[Av8r_Sed]

Steve, Thanks, great info. I had gotten to the point of wondering if Weber Canyon was a wind machine, and how to get through the Hill AFB airspace but the light bulb hadn't gone off about simpler routing. Into Foreflight it goes.

[Esser]

Hi guys,

Natalie and I are thinking of flying down in the Cherokee. It's about 550nm direct so I'm not sure how long it will be by the time we hit the passes coming in through from the north.

Either way it all depends on Natalie getting time off work but if we do make it, will any body have an empty seat for the fly out? I doubt the Cherokee can go where they are planning on going with the Kitfoxes...just a guess.

I think we will probably camp with the plane if the weather looks decent since we havent used the tent all year.

[jdmcbean]

Factory fly-in is quickly approaching… Hope to see you there!

Please RSVP and get your Dinner Tickets in advance. That allows us for better overall planning and the caterer requires us to pre-purchase the dinners by Aug 31st.

Stick & Rudder Aviation is considering offering Flight Reviews (BFR’s) during the fly-in. As you may know, the Flight Review (FAR Part 61.56) now requires 1 hour ground and 1 hour flight… The ground portion may be offered free of charge as a group class and the flight portion would be scheduled with the instructors. This may be a good opportunity to couple a BFR with a little Mountain/Canyon Flying knowledge. More details will be offered soon.

For more info you can get the flyer here http://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/images/PDF/Fly-in-Kitfox%20Aircraft%202013.pdf

[DesertFox4]

Bump. Getting close now. Make your final arrangements for lodging and food now. :)

[Peter B]

I wish my Kitfox was ready to head to the fly-in. Sounds like lots of fun! Maybe next year! I just started working on my SS7 about a month ago -- working on the second wing now; basic work on HS and elevator mostly done. Work on the fuselage is progressing slowly. Ordered upholstery kit yesterday.

I've made a number of trips from Mississippi to California and to Washington over the past three years in my 182. But doing it in my SS Kitfox will add a new dimension of fun to the trip.:)

With great anticipation . . .
Peter B

[DesertFox4]

Peter, we look forward to seeing your 7SS at the next factory fly in.
Now that they happen every other year you may just make the next one with ease.
Congats on the good progress. Hope to see some photos of your project soon.

[Slyfox]

I just may be interested in the morning flyout on saturday. I would like to hear more, what time and such. not sure if I would be willing to fly in for the whole weekend. when done I will fly home. cheryl already told me if she goes it will be in the rv, so the morning fly will be messed with(no kitfox).:confused:

[jdmcbean]

Here we go.. Getting Real close now!! Just updated the web with a little more info..

Please RSVP now if you are planning on attending... We must give a final count to the caterers...

http://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/kaflyin_2013.htm

There will be more coming shortly on the morning fly-out...

Get your BFR at the Fly-IN See attached PDF for more info
Sponsored by Stick & Rudder Aviation
The factory endorsed -Kitfox-specific flight school

[jdmcbean]

Details for the Fly-out attached.. Looks like a nice breakfast run to Sulphur Creek...

[Slyfox]

thanks John.

now is anybody going from my area. Spokane.

[jamesmil]

the fly out with Paul sounds great, looking at the pic, of the air fields I don't think will as easy as landing on the beach. will have to bring the a game. still praying to the weather gods for no hurricanes looks good so far.

[Mark]

A temporary tower is currently operating at MYL for firefighting support. My sources think it may be closed before we arrive. Be sure to check NOTAMS before your departure to see if it's still open next week.

Currently Tower Freq: 118.35
Ground Freq: 120.525

[jamesmil]

hi guys, got the spot locator in today. up and running and tested. here is the link if anyone would like to follow along. planning to leave Monday about 7am est.:D http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?glId=0z33kGr9AlWsPqiL4doqnKRxYgpaFNu FU

[Slyfox]

wow! you sure have a long way to go. have you figured how far yet.

[jamesmil]

yea slyfox, it looks like about 2500 sm. to homedale direct if no weather to go around. " not likely" or about 25 hr. seat time each way.

[kitfox5v]

Jimmy, Looks like Gabrielle is going to give you a break so your wife will let you go. Lucky for you it just dried up. Be careful on your trip. Take lots of pictures to post for the rest of us. Will follow you on your spot check. Fair skies my friend. Eddie;)

[DesertFox4]

Have a safe trip Jimmy. Watch the weather.

[Slyfox]

hi guys, got the spot locator in today. up and running and tested. here is the link if anyone would like to follow along. planning to leave Monday about 7am est.:D http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?glId=0z33kGr9AlWsPqiL4doqnKRxYgpaFNu FU



if you guys are following, he is in Kansas on the second day. wow! talk about an iron butt.

[SkyPirate]

He just missed me by 20 minutes north when he flew thru missouri

[Slyfox]

did you give a big wave.

[SkyPirate]

Lol i did :)and then kicked dirt because i dont have my plane yet, would have gave him an escort thru part of missouri :)

[Slyfox]

when do you get the plane, where is it now.

[SkyPirate]

Illinois , just waiting on schedules to allow it

[jamesmil]

hi all, made it to kcys, two good days of flying. the fox is running great but I might need to talk to a doctor to have it removed after this trip:D
looks like the weather might hold me up tomorrow if so will out check Cheyenne. tried to down load some picture's from the gopro but having trouble, I think it's operator malfunction :o

[SkySteve]

Jamesmil,
Love it! Bend over and cough real loud, maybe that will help with the medical condition :eek:

[SkyPirate]

it was 96 here on the ground in MO when you flew thru,..I was wondering if it was bumpy or not,..sounds like it may have been :) ??

[jamesmil]

yes skypirate it was hot and bumpy. had to get to 6500 before it cooled down. setting in the hotel room looking out the window at the rain and low ceilings. the weathers not looking good for today or tomorrow, might try to reposition north if I get a break in the weather later today.

[jamesmil]

well this sucks, still stuck in Cheyenne. the weather is still bad and forecast to stay about the same for the next 2 days and then it looks like it's not going to all that good in Idaho. I hate to say it but if it's the same tomorrow I might see if I can get a svfr out of here and follow 80 east till I get to better weather. then i'll decide what to do.

[SkyPirate]

It looks like its rotation is pulling it north

[SkySteve]

Jamesmil,
The weather in Ogden has been low clouds and rain much of today. Clouds are breaking up, the rain has stopped and the sun is out now. I have no idea what tomorrow will bring. They are saying more rain but that is likely to come later in the day. I'll make a go, no-go decision in the morning for tomorrow's launch. If it's raining in the morning I'll wait until we get a break, either late morning or early afternoon. If its not good by then I will plan on an early departure Fri morning.

[SkyPirate]

Sheridan looks clear and you might have a tail wind

[SkyPirate]

The moderate turbulence starts at 27000 msl so your good there, looks like a small squal line if you draw a line from boise to sheridan its about 1/2 way and following the line

[SkyPirate]

I guess what im saying is i agree with you as far as clear north, as for terrain, i do not know, if you could fly north east toward alliance and then turn north toward pine ridge , when you hit route 20 turn west toward sheridan then stay north of the convection until your near boise

[SkyPirate]

There is one restricted area 7001a,b,c ground to 30,000. Its tough to tell exactly where, im looking at 3 different programs , but its between KCPR and KCYS, slightly north east of center between them
I think you might be north west of that restricted area from where your at

[Slyfox]

he can make use of the wings folding. go rent a uhaul truck and put it inside. drive to an area where it is clear. go from there.

[jamesmil]

Well gave it a good run but finally had to give in to mother nature. Left the kitfox in kcys and got a flite home. Setting in kalt to catch the next flite to kmyr in 2 hr then rent a car and drive 1 1/5 hr and will be home. Had 2 great days of flying the kitfox, loged 20 hr,s in 2 days and was comfortable the whole time . Wish i could have made it to mccall for the flyin but was not to be. Now got to work on getting it back home.:confused:

[SkySteve]

Jamesmil,
Sorry to hear, but you did give it all you could. That storm just won't let up. I went to the airport today to launch and it was real iffy. Then the wind came up to 28 mph and I threw in the towel. I plan to do it again tomorrow morning out of Ogden and see what happens.

[DesertFox4]

Jimmy, so sorry you couldn't complete your mission. We will do it another time and thanks for making a valient effort. You can't fight mother nature.

[SkySteve]

DesertFox 4,
Are you in Homedale?

[SkySteve]

Just got word from a buddy who came thru McCall this evening. At least two Kitfoxes there now. From Deer Park and San Juan, WA.

[DesertFox4]

I am Steve. I flew up with Phil in his 7SS. We left Phoenix on tues. morning but had to fly west almost to L.A. to get around the weather. Stayed in Hawthorn,NV over night and got into Homedale at about 11 Wed. morning. Actually after a little scud running east of Blythe, we had a really great flight up.

[SkySteve]

Still low clouds and raining, raining, raining in Huntsville/Ogden, UT. Not going to get out today. Hoping for a break in the weather tomorrow morning so we can get to the fly-in. :(:(

[SkyPirate]

just looking at "myradar" Steve and it looks like that mess is slow moving down by you,..is there a southern route that you can take to get around it?

[SkySteve]

SkyPirate,
Yes, there is a southern route, but it takes me thu Mexico!!

Looking at the time, distance, weather, etc. I think my fun meter is about to run out. My wife was excited to go, but her excitement has expired. Think I'll just throw in the towel for this year. This slow moving storm really hit at a bad time for many of us. I'll really miss seeing all the Kitfox family. Kinda wish this was an annual event. Another two years is a long way off.

[SkyPirate]

things like this make me think I may need to invest in an enclosed trailer,..just because of times like this

[SkySteve]

The end of the storm is not going well. Two funnel clouds appeared today. First I've ever seen in Utah:

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff12/KitfoxSteve/A37D2190-D9B3-4686-8705-3A4EDC933E8A-2760-0000026FAB774F8C_zps466fb9d0.jpg

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff12/KitfoxSteve/C9E8D2C2-22A3-4AAB-B48B-6FE02E90355A-2760-0000026FF5EE0A8A_zps5e8e7417.jpg

[bdemunck]

Head for the bunker, Steve. In-coming!!

[HighWing]

I'm home from the fly-in. I have to admit that the weather reports discouraged me from flying the six or seven hundred miles from my home, but wile driving, except for some rain along the way, the visibility was fine. I could have made it both ways.

It was a good event. there were about 14 Kitfoxes there - mostly 7s. I only saw one IV and there was a Series V. Since remembering names has never been my strong suit, I guess if I had a wish it would be that we wore name tags because with the exception of a few long time friends, I don't know who else was there.

All in all a good trip, though driving was three times what flying would have been time wise - especially with the 120 mile long 55 mph zone through the SE corner of Oregon.

[AirFox]

Pictures???

[DesertFox4]

Phil and I got back into Phoenix about 4pm yesterday from the fly in. We left Tuesday morning early. No way to fly our usual route from PHX up past Las Vegas to Ely,NV then into Homedale. Weather was terrible that way. Our only option was to fly west until we could fly north. Well, we flew west. Almost to L.A. before we could start towards Idaho. This is going to be an adventure for sure. Blythe was our 1st fuel stop. On to Apple Valley,CA for fuel and food. No food. Cafe closed. We did get a flat tire though taxiing to the active runway. Some delay while the local FBO sent help and a new tube. Great folks at Apple Valley.
We flew to Hawthorne,NV where we met up with Allen. Spent the night. The flight from Apple Valley to Hawthorne was smooth and beautiful. Even a little tail wind at times.

Wed. morning was a little overcast so we made haste and headed north before the moisture trapped us. We soon outran the threatening weather and had a tailwind boost all the way into the factory at Homedale. Spent the day with John and Debra while they and crew got ready for McCall.

Thursday was "tour the factory" day for those that would arrive early and want to see the facilities. Even with the weather keeping so many folks stuck at home or in Jimmie's case Cheyenne,Wy.:(, the place was jumping. It was fun to meet so many great new members of our Kitfox family.

Friday morning we left as a flight of four from Homedale and flew direct to Sulfur Creek Ranch. On the way we formed up with Paul's flight from Stick & Rudder out of Boise. The weather was cloudy and fog lay in some valleys.
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We flew through a little rain while circling the airfield but all landed just fine. 5284

After all the Kitfoxs were parked we hit the main cabin for breakfast. The menu was simple. Yes or no. The meal was big and very good. This is a beautiful place.5285
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Time to head to McCall.
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Again , some rain and clouds but the gaggle had no trouble staying together and we arrived at McCall and tied down.

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Some covered their aircraft in case of rain. It turned out to be a beautiful day.

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Debra set up the Kitfox tent near the FBO and made ready for arrivals.

More later.

[SkyPirate]

Awesome !! Can't wait to see more :) thanks for sharing DF4

[DesertFox4]

Happy to do it SkyPirate.:) Here are some more with less commentary. Enjoy.
Hope you and all those that wanted to attend but could not will make the next one.

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[DesertFox4]

More random photos from 2013 Kitfox factory fly in.

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[SkyPirate]

Well if that dare devil " SlyFox" doesnt tear up the sky's too bad and leave a few shreads of air to fly in ( ha ha duck's and takes cover from a flying transmission wrench :) ) i hope to make it for 2015 lord willing :)

[SkyPirate]

Love that red tail dragger :)

[DesertFox4]

More photos 2013 Kitfox fly in.
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[DesertFox4]

Last batch of photos 2013 Kitfox fly in.
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[jamesmil]

well at least I got to look at some pictures, some good looking k/f's thanks df4.
will try again in 2 years.

[SkyPirate]

Hey Jimmy i'll meet ya west of STL

[jdmcbean]

Thank you for those that made it to the 2013 Factory Fly-in and to those that gave it a great college try.. Hope to see you next time !!

Here's a quick slide show from the Fly-in.. Enjoy!

http://youtu.be/pryMNG5MZME

[SkySteve]

Thanks John for the great video. Really wish I could have made it. Missed the family.

[DesertFox4]

Nice slide show John. Very nice photos. Thanks for posting. Those that could get there had a great time. You and Debra always go the extra mile to make sure everyone goes home with a positive experience and memories to last for a long time. Thanks to your entire crew at the factory too.
Paul did a great job and a lot of work putting the fly out together and the briefing was very thorough. The photos prove the success of his planning.
A personal thanks to Paul for the time I spent with him flying that sexy 914 powered Stick & Rudder Kitfox. It was a blast knocking some of that tail wheel rust off on those mountain strips.:)
I can see why everyone loves training with him in that machine.

I enjoyed meeting and getting to know so many new Kitfox family members. Some are in the build process and some in the dreaming stage.

A huge thank you goes out to Phil Laker for letting me tag along on this adventure in his beautiful 7SS. I think I owe Phil for a good majority of my best Kitfox adventures and memories. Thanks Phil and I look forward to more very soon. Let's go visit Allen next.;)

[desertfox1]

I need to add my thank you to John and Debra, it takes a lot of
time and effort to plan and coordinate the factory flyins and the
weather made this one even more interesting for Debra.

Steve, I am blessed to have had you with me on so many Kitfox
adventures, even when we have to fly West to LA in order to go
North to Idaho! Good fun.

Phil

[SkySteve]

Jimmy,
Were you ever able to get back to Cheyenne, WY and get your plane?


Well gave it a good run but finally had to give in to mother nature. Left the kitfox in kcys and got a flite home. Setting in kalt to catch the next flite to kmyr in 2 hr then rent a car and drive 1 1/5 hr and will be home.

[jamesmil]

yes steve, got it back last sunday 9/22 . a young friend of mine that is building time and also an a&p with lots of tail wheel time went out and picked it up for me. I still plan to complete the trip to homedale, it has been eating at me as an unfinished project. I am planning to go to homedale the first of next month with bill sansone to pick up his kit but we will drive and tow a trailer so that trip doesn't count.;)