How much runway is enough?

[WurlyBird]

Well there is no way around it, I am moving to Alaska. So we are starting to look at houses in the area on line. As I am sure many of you do or have done, every piece of property I look at I imagine whether a grass strip would fit in or not. I am looking at one that has a 500' long axis that runs down a hill of about 5-10 degrees. The bottom buts up to a road and then trees on the other side. Now I know that is more then enough to get in and out I am trying to figure out if there is any reason not to. Obviously an engine out at 100-300' would leave few options on departure, but, well, isn't flying out of your backyard worth a little extra risk? How wide of a swath would you want cut between trees? 100', 150'?

Av8r3400, I saw a video of yours on Youtube, did you ever land in your yard? How long is the strip?


How nice would this be?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2MFEJY3SPQ

I have landed at a buddies house, his yard is on the sectional just to keep his neighbors at bay. 1800' with 50' obstacles at either end, he flies an RV. there was two sections of tree lines on his strip that were about 75-100' apart. It's a fun approach.

[Av8r3400]

My proposed is 1100'. I've never landed it.

IMO, 500' isn't enough. Especially with trees. I can land and stop my plane consistently in 450-500' at the airport. I'd never even try that short on an obstructed turf strip.

[Dave F]

Alot is dependant on wieght and perfomrance form your setup.

For landing you need with 50' obstacle about 800 to 1100' which will give you some safety margin.
with clear approach 300 to 500 feet is planty if you know what you doing,.

Take off 100 to 300 '

If you have a tank heavy kitfox youwill certainly need more room.

I have hundreds of videos showing many situations

let me know if you need some links

[Craig Howard]

I have a KF 4 1200 with a 912 rotax 80hp, I land on a Remote control airport that is 300 feet, at 4000ft elev. here in El Paso in the summer, DA's around 6000ft. I have no obstructions to clear and that is solo, cant imagine what a fox would be like a SL.

[n85ae]

500' is fine, until you need more room ... Then you're screwed. I can takeoff
and land mine in 500', but would not plan on it for a personal strip unless the
neighbors property was a sod farm.

Jeff

[tommg13780]

If you are getting involved with a short, slope-ing, obstructed strip then it will end up being one way in/ one way out. In that case it is inevitable that you will eventually get involved with quartering or direct tailwind approach which is going to suprise you as how fast the realestate goes by. Landing with tailwind produces the sensation that the airplane is accelerating as it touches down. This is something that you normally wouldn't train for at an airport. If you are looking for excitment that will definitely be a huge element but ofcourse the downside can be even more huge, costly and perhaps downright unhealthy. To address the question more directly I'd say all circumstances need to be evaluated before a particular minimum distance can be determined. A fair amount of that analysis is you and your airplane's capabilities.

[WurlyBird]

Av8r, is 450-500' with obstacles? I would agree that 1100' with 50' trees at either end is definitely challenging/risky

Dave, I've seen most of your movies. I like them a lot and I look forward to getting my Fox up with the HKS to post videos to give you a run for your money. It's all about having fun.

All the properties I have been looking at are on slopes which is what makes me think it is feasible at 5-600'. I read an article a month or so ago that talked about how beneficial slopes were and it equated it to additional length and I wish I could remember the ratio. Something along the lines of 100' per degree. So a 500' 10 degree strip is equivalent to a 1500' flat strip. The only issue is not having more runway straight ahead if the engine fails while low. It is one way in and one way out regardless of winds. So sometimes you just don't fly because the wind is too strong of a tail wind. When I am flying my Fox I am pretty damn proficient and almost every take off and landing practices short field techniques. I can't remember the last time my wheels went past the top of the numbers on take off or landing. One of my problems is I fly helicopters way more then planes so I have a habit of looking at any spot larger then a tennis court and thinking "Yeah, I can land there."

edit to add: These sloping fields that I am looking at would be obstruction free at departure/downhill end at least to the extent of obstacles, there may not be a field there though.

[N82HB]

There is no formula for figuring this out. The biggest variable is your ability.

I spend a lot of my time exploring slopes, short, ugly places. But it isn't something I want to do everytime I fly. It is only a matter of time before something gets bent.

My airplane is a very light 100hp 912uls IV and I have 500 hours in it. You need more room.

[Pilot4Life]

WurlyBird,
There has been discussion on this topic in times past. The question I always ask myself when making a decision is always based on the "most conservative response". That is "Will it satisfy the safety requirements of the crash investigation board?" More often than not, when I am pushing the envelope, the answer is a resounding NO! I would hate to put my family's future ($$$$) in jeapardy because I wanted my own airstrip. I know, for a fact, that there are homes available in Alaska that are on regularily used airstrips. They're in abundance in AK. For a simple understanding, look at the "airports" around Witchita, KS and you'll get a better picture of what to expect in AK. Again, as always, the choice is yours...but prudence would tell ME to take a deep breath and consider the "Whole Picture". I know you're thought process having flown too many hours in HH-60L's myself. Could you?, sure...why not!... Should you, nope! Famous last words..."Watch This"....Best wishes...

[WurlyBird]

The question I always ask myself when making a decision is always based on the "most conservative response"

I respect your opinion and expected several like this, and I am not saying you are wrong. You can't argue for very long with the kind of thinking that keeps more people alive/safe. By no means do I think a short down hill strip is the best laid plan, honestly I was hoping to draw out a few stories from people with experience in strips like this. There are a lot of those people out there, there is a hand full of stories every year in aviation periodicals about one way landing strips and their challenges. That is more what I was looking for.

But I must beg that you remove that phrase from your vocabulary. "Most conservative approach" is the version of that nonsense that I was brought up with. It makes no sense in the realm of most aviation, especially in a realm such as home built experimental aircraft. The most conservative approach is to not go flying as a hobby. As an HH crew member the most conservative approach would be to never take off and instead point out the mistakes made that led to the injury in the first place. So then you can amend it to "Most conservative approach to accomplish the mission." This makes only slightly more sense and only if there is a mission that needs to be accomplished. I will argue that VERY few people flying Kitfoxes are accomplishing anything more significant then producing ear to ear grins. Unless the stated mission is to spend as much as humanly possible for a hamburger. I underlined challanges above because meeting challenges is one of my missions, which is why I exploit the STOL characteristics of my KF3 the way I do. And why I asked to go to Alaska when I was told I was going to Hawai'i. Bush flying is constantly meeting challenges and putting yourself and your aircraft in what conservative people would call stupid situations. When flying over mountains where there are no forced landing spots available regardless of your AGL altitude and landing on unimproved strips, or sand bars, just to go fishing, it is hard to imagine how somebody might describe how they did that conservatively. I think being honest with yourself and your passengers is more realistic and important, I am sure that more then a few pilots in the thousands of videos on YouTube of people flying with out an out (we Kitfoxers are not innocent of this either) like to use the "most conservative approach" saying in excess.

I will get off my soap box now. It's not you, it's me. I freakin HATE that phrase. Also, I don't know if AK is significantly different then the lower 48 but down here if I could afford a home on a runway I would probably be posting to the Carbon Cub list instead of the Kitfox one.

[Dick B in KY]

Old pilots and bold pilots, BUT, very few old and bold pilots.

Dick B (former Helio Courier C/STOL pilot)

[kitfoxnick]

Mine started out as 900' with trees 600' to the east of the threshold, and clear to the west. Having my plane out behind the barn is priceless.

You will have to pick your days. The uphill factor is going to make it a one way in, one way out most of the time. Having a challenging strip to come home to will make you a better pilot. Instead of landing on 1500' runway with clear approaches. You can do it, there are plenty of people with short runways who do. You have to have enough skill, and enough plane to pull it off.

Check out supercub.org a lot of AK guys on there.

Head up north and go flying with these guys. John has a plethora of landing spots on his farm from beginner to advanced.

http://ohiobushplanes.com/1/?page_id=163

This video was made a couple of years ago there is a glimpse of me on decelerator at about 1:14 on the video

[ackselle]

Well.... my farm runway is about 1400'x75'(in summer.... much narrower in winter because I want to fly...not blow snow). I doesn't need to be 1400' long for me with my Kitfox, but I get alot of visitors (which I like) because it is long enough for a wide variety of planes. Depending on the crop we grow(soybeans good, corn bad), there's an easy approach on either 18 or 36.

Here's a picture of it last Sunday. The air was wonderfully smooth @ -18C.

[ackselle]

BTW... very nice video Nick! I love the "decelerator"!

[DesertFox4]

Great photo ackselle. Beautiful Kitfox.

[FitchUpNorth]

Simple answer......

No. Thats not enough. 500 maybe as a fun camping backcountry drop in. Everyday? Add slope and trees? You can do it right a million times, you only have to do it wrong ONCE.... Maybe its me getting conservative in my aging, but I think thats just too close a margin. It can get warm up there. Plus add gear and another FAA standard person, and it may get a bit hairy on the margins. Cut it THAT close and you don't even have to have a full blown engine failure, just a simple hiccup or a derated hp performance, and it can become a VERY bad day in a VERY big hurry. Trees get REALLY big REALLY fast, and thats never a good thing.... Been There, Done That.

Rethink that plan, buddy. Don't want to ever read about you or anyone else on here in an "after the fact" thread.

"Nothings more useless to a pilot than runway behind him, altitude above him, or fuel left in the truck"

Greasy side down...

[GWright6970]

James (WurlyBird), I FULLY understand your mindset, as being afflicted with it myself... as a former Army Aviator, (flew Cobras in Nam with the Real Cav). One of my scout pilots is on this forum also. He has a KF Model II, with a 582 pulling it.

I grew up in Alaska, started flying there while still in high school, etc., so I feel I can safely say it will suit you well as an Army helicopter pilot!

For this discussion I just wish to say, that one just has to go see if "the SPECIFIC strip fits." What may feel ok outside of Ft Richardson (Anchorage), may not up at Ft. Wainright (Fairbanks)... of course you will have to remember to consider the ALL of the "two seasons." Most folks do not fly much, if at all, during the winter up there, especially those in the interior of Alaska, hence the high number of spring accidents when everyone takes off with their super rusty skills.

Having bush experience, the only honest answer is "it all depends how it looks today." Forgive me for saying the "duh obvious", but please do NOT buy any land sight un-seen. Camera angles may NOT give a true picture. I believe that you will find some acceptable property that will provide you with a landing strip. (The best fit is if you are getting stationed in Fairbanks.)

<<Yes, I still say, "Above the best.... we'll always give it a try!">>

I wish you the very best on your new assignment. Please keep in touch and let us know what you decide when you get up there, and how it goes!

Grover

[GWright6970]

ackselle,
I think you just posted everyone's Christmas Card picture for next year!!

I love it!

thank you!
Grover

[WurlyBird]

Just so you know Grover, I am jealous. The Cobra and the LOH had to be an awesome combination to run around those jungles in.

I like the input on this topic, again it was mostly intended to spark some good stories/conversation. I am forever a child at heart and no matter how much property I own I will always dream of landing and taking off in the back yard. I currently have 4.5 acres in a residential area, the longest shot including a little of my neighbors yard is about 1000' and I have yet to land there. But that is primarily because of the ruckus it would cause. Sigh, to dream.

Oh, and Grover, was the "Real" CAV a unit title or are you suggesting we aren't real CAV anymore?!?! :D

[HighWing]

I like the input on this topic, again it was mostly intended to spark some good stories/conversation. I am forever a child at heart and no matter how much property I own I will always dream of landing and taking off in the back yard.


I envy the guys that feel comfortable flying like this - I guess I am just an old pilot. Bold is for the younger guys.

One of the guys we flew with had an early Rans S-7. Was that a Rans I saw occasionally in the Nick's video? Anyway, he lives in the outskirts of Elko, Nevada. His house is on a hill with a small shed - hangar - with a short taxiway that runs up the hill about another 75 feet to a road that is cut out of the hill behind his house. Probably close to full power to get from the shed to the road. The road runs cross wise to the slope. He uses that road as his runway.

Two things are critical for him. Since the road is cut out of the slope, one wing is very close to the ground and he has to pay close attention to that. Then there is a gentle ridge running down the slope to his house so there is a rise to a peak in the road - in other words the road rises up to a ridge then descends back down again. If he lands a foot or two short of the ridge, he will bounce and will have to go around. If he lands a bit long, he won't have room to stop. He has used this runway for years. Would I land there? Never. Does he give rides? Yes, but he will meet his passenger either at the airport or at a more favorable section of the road.

The pay-off? He would regularly win the Spot Landing contest at the Kitfox Factory fly-in when those events were still held. This guy knew his airplane, what it could do and felt comfortable doing it. I think in this sense and related to the original question, one size definitely doesn't fit all.
Lowell

[WurlyBird]

I like the story HighWing. I have known some people like that, capable beyond description. The dangerous ones are the ones that don't know that is the case and encourage others to do the same as them.


Bold is for the younger guys.

If nothing else this thread has brought out some old aviation cliches for dissection and discussion. I think this one has been said or paraphrased at least three times on this thread alone and it is another one that I have not quite embraced. Here is the Oxford dictionary definition of bold:
bold

/bōld/
Adjective
(of a person, action, or idea) Showing an ability to take risks; confident and courageous.

I have a coffee table book of aviation quotes titled Slipping the Surly Bonds which I highly recommend. One quote "There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots" is of course the one I am talking about now. I would say that by the very definition of bold there are ONLY bold old pilots. Any pilot that was not bold I would not want to fly with. Another quote from the book is "Courage is being the only one that knows how terrified you are." That is a character trait that I expect to see in a pilot. Other wise when that punctuating "moment of stark terror" arises, the not bold pilot will lose composure and possibly not make it out. All of us are of course confident. How could you ever solo if not? You just have to keep an eye out for over-confidence. And as far as taking risks, I will once again point out that this community is a collection of people who think a good hobby is to go burning holes in the sky in an airplane that they built in their garage!

I think the intent of the saying is probably solid, but with a poor choice of words. There is no need to take excessive risk all the time. The more exposure you have to periods of flying with no out the more you increase your chances that when something goes wrong it will be unrecoverable. But to imply that risk should not be taken is ridiculous. I would say that bold was picked to be used in that phrase because it rhymed more then it made sense, which implies a Safety Officer thought of it. And probably a military one at that.

[kitfoxnick]

Was that a Rans I saw occasionally in the Nick's video? ....

Lowel, that was a Rans S-7 owned by Greg Swingle the fellow who made the video. I just happened to get caught on tape. These guys are a great bunch of guys to fly with.

I encourage you to check out some of Greg's other videos there's a long list of them to the right of the page that the video was on. Including his latest rans build.


I envy the guys that feel comfortable flying like this... This guy knew his airplane, what it could do and felt comfortable doing it. ....

The guy you were talking about is comfortable flying his airplane like this because he knows his airplane. He knows his airplane, because he has to, in order to come home. Like anything, coming home for him is not as much of a challenge as it was in the beginning. I'm sure he picks his days. A crosswind from the uphill side could be tricky. Thanks for seeing both sides of the coin.

[GWright6970]

"Oh, and Grover, was the "Real" CAV a unit title or are you suggesting we aren't real CAV anymore?!?! :D["/quote]

James, does "Charlie Troop, 1/9th Cavalry "Headhunters", First Air Cavalry Division" ring a bell for your history lessons? We were the original unit that all others copied, including the Stetsons, sabers, and spurs. And yes, I still have mine!

I was the guy who started the painting of sharks teeth on Charlie Troop Cobras. Check out page 3, "Vietnam War Helicopter Art" by John Brennan. She looks pretty darn good! (Named of course, "The Alaskan.")

I have refused ALL advice to paint my Kitfox in a similiar manner!!! LOL!!:)

Take care James, and keep your needles together!
Grover

[HighWing]

Interesting stuff.
One thing I remembered after reading subsequent posts, my Rans buddy was fairly picky when he took his airplane home - or not. It was not unheard of that he landed at EKO and got a ride to his house. While looking for a picture of the Rans I thought of something else. A Rans is a good airplane to have in the group for a long cross country. They only hold 20 gallons total. Those guys get pretty animated when it is time for a fuel stop.
Lowell

[GWright6970]

[quote=HighWing; They only hold 20 gallons total. Those guys get pretty animated when it is time for a fuel stop. Lowell[/quote]

:D I vote that you win todays comedy prize Lowell!!! :DThat is dang funny!! Thank you! :D

[WurlyBird]

Just to close this thread, I actually ended up moving in to a community with an 1800' strip. It took a while to figure it out but in AK people do not value a fly in community the same way we do in the lower 48. Most strips are not even on the sectional even if they are quite adequate, and active. I ultimately had to use google earth to search the area for grass strips and then search for houses nearby. There are a few communities that are the exception, but for the most part, having access to a runway does not affect home value in Alaska. This place is weird but fantastic.

Any Kitfoxers near Fairbanks need to hit me up, I would love to see how many are flying around here. I found one at a nearby strip but I also found it for sale on barnstormers.

[n85ae]

Haha, small world. Near the beginning of Snake Pilot, is a quote by Randy Zahn about my Uncle Enn Tietenberg, who was the XO of Charlie Troop in 1969. So at least one of us Kitfoxer's know's what Charlie Troop is. Shoot
me a private message for more info, I was Enn's executor (he passed away
a few years ago).

Regards,
Jeff Hays



"Oh, and Grover, was the "Real" CAV a unit title or are you suggesting we aren't real CAV anymore?!?! :D["/quote]

James, does "Charlie Troop, 1/9th Cavalry "Headhunters", First Air Cavalry Division" ring a bell for your history lessons? We were the original unit that all others copied, including the Stetsons, sabers, and spurs. And yes, I still have mine!

I was the guy who started the painting of sharks teeth on Charlie Troop Cobras. Check out page 3, "Vietnam War Helicopter Art" by John Brennan. She looks pretty darn good! (Named of course, "The Alaskan.")

I have refused ALL advice to paint my Kitfox in a similiar manner!!! LOL!!:)

Take care James, and keep your needles together!
Grover

[Geowitz]

Sorry to hijack and I have absolutely no connection to the things you guys are talking about, but it sparked my interest to finally do something I always was curious about.

Here's mine...Photoshopped of course.

[Pilot4Life]

Do it Geowitz! Looks good!

[Flybyjim]

Love the teeth.

[Flybyjim]

I have an Rans S7 now that I love to fly, never any question what I can and can not do with this plane. I can land it in a s little as 400 feet if needed and get back out in the same or less. I just ordered a kitfox as I think this is the other great kit plane out there, being side by side I look forward to having my passenger right there to share the ride. Both are great planes, I have not meet an owner of either tHat was not happy with their choice.
Can't wait to start the build.
Jim

[DesertFox4]

Congrats Jim on your Kitfox order. Have fun with the build. It's always nice to have a fun airplane to fly while you build.

[akflyer]

Just to close this thread, I actually ended up moving in to a community with an 1800' strip. It took a while to figure it out but in AK people do not value a fly in community the same way we do in the lower 48. Most strips are not even on the sectional even if they are quite adequate, and active. I ultimately had to use google earth to search the area for grass strips and then search for houses nearby. There are a few communities that are the exception, but for the most part, having access to a runway does not affect home value in Alaska. This place is weird but fantastic.

Any Kitfoxers near Fairbanks need to hit me up, I would love to see how many are flying around here. I found one at a nearby strip but I also found it for sale on barnstormers.

Not quite sure about runway access not affecting home value. They are quite a bit more on a runway around my neck of the woods. I am not in Fairbanks, but I if your ever doing a CC down Soldotna way give me a heads up! There are quite a few of us Kit Fox and Avid flyers in the area.

Oh, if you cant get in and out of 400' at the elevations and temps we fly at, maybe you should stick to the fling wings LOL. That is of course unless your flying off some of the deeper sand beaches that tend to drag you down A LOT! If you dont have at least an 8" tall wide TW I would suggest getting one if your planning on playing on gravel and back country strips!