Arlington Air show - Ruined

[Flienlow]

We have had a pretty good year, and a few things have gone our way. I have long been excited for the Arlington, WA air show & fly-in to come so I could go see, feel, touch, and immerse myself in all that is Kitfox (A plane that I was considering building.) I wanted to look, listen, and codg about building and flying Airplanes- KIT FOX airplanes! I wasn’t there for the air show; I wasn’t there for Highlander, Zenair, or any of the other fly contraptions out on the field. I was there for 1 purpose, KIT FOX airplanes. We had a busy hectic morning but I finally got the wife and kid rounded up and drove the 25 miles to the airfield, and paid the $36 entry fee. After dragging a protesting whiny 5 year old we finally made it to the Kitfox area. Mr. McBean completely unaware of my excitement was busy talking with someone as we walked up so I didn’t want to be rude and interrupt. Instead I went over to one of the SS7s they had there and began looking at it. I was looking at the Rudder and pondering what it would take to cover and paint it. I then made the mistake of actually touching it, and probably deflected the Rudder about 1 inch normal side to side movement. I was immediately snapped at by Mr. McBean who gave me a look as if I was his son and had ****ed all over it. That first 2 second interaction completely ruined the air show for me. You are seriously going to snap at me for touching the rudder? Then not more than 10 seconds later, I hear him speak words to the affect of “you are thinking of buying a kit? Well, hop in there” as he ushered another bystander into the Cock pit. (Which by the way put thrice the wear and tear on his aircraft as me touching the Rudder.) -Judge for yourself.
Yep, you are correct. It is his airplane and I shouldn’t touch it. My response is that if you don’t want anyone to touch your airplane, don’t park it in front of a place where you are trying to show case them for sale, or cordon them off so it is clear. Furthermore, I solemnly promise Mr. McBean & co that will I not touch is Kitfox again, nor anything that he manufactures for it, or my wallet to purchase any of the aforementioned. I think I will go down to the airport and fly a 172. I can fully deflect the rudder on it. It won’t hurt it a bit and no one gives a damn if you do.
– I’m out!

[rwaltman]

I think you are overreacting. You may know how to handle an airplane, but other people cannot know that you know, buy just looking at you.

Airshows (regular airport parking areas also) are an endless source of horror stories, such as a father making a child stand on an horizontal stab to take a picture, etc.

In any case, don't let what you consider to be a bad salesman get in the way between you and what you consider to be a good airplane.

Roberto.

[Esser]

Well I'm sorry you had a bad experience but I find communication settles everything. You should have just said sorry for touching your plane. I am interested in building and I didn't think it would be a big deal since there are no signs saying not to touch. Next time I will ask.

I'm sure John would have said no harm no foul, i just wasn't sure what you were doing now jump up in the seat and check it out.

[Paul Z]

I wouldn't worry about it too much, everyone can have a bad day and be a little grumpy. I should know, I excel at it. I am sure John has a bad day every now and again. It's a great plane, and I love flying mine. Too bad I am laid up for the next month, or I would be out flying mine.

[lostpilot28]

Far be it for me to comment on this, because I'm new here...but I had a similar experience at Oshkosh with a different vendor and it boggles my mind that ANY business would conduct themselves in this manner. The way I look at it is that the business is there to drum up sales. They SHOULD expect anyone and everyone to touch their airplanes and equipment. If not, cordon it off and let "prospective buyers" inside.

At the Caldwell airshow last year my RV-7A was behind the rope for display and no one touched it. I let a couple of asking parents bring their small kids over to sit in it. Heck, I'd probably have taken them flying if they'd asked! That's what us "common airplane owners" are doing at airshows. Vendors should expect otherwise, or they will lose business.

Treat people like you want to be treated...that goes 10 fold for business owners. That being said, I try not to judge people based on what I hear from others. I believe in first hand experience. So when I'm ready to buy into the Kitfox family (or anything else), a gracious attitude is what I hope to see.

Just wanted to comment because I know how the OP feels. I was about to part with thousands of dollars on a glass panel and in one instant I changed my mind.

[rogerh12]

Ya, my first meeting with Mr McBean at Oshkosh was not so hot either.

He is a knowledgeable and competent business man I am sure, but not so warm a fuzzy. It’s a tough business and takes a special kind of guy to be successful in it. Perhaps he should hire a “salesman” type to take over the shows for him, you know, someone that will kiss butt first and scold second.
Roger

[Flienlow]

I have been Consulting with Capt'n Morgan on this subject tonight and here is what we've found (reflecting back.) It probably wasn't personal, and he is probably just direct. I don't begrudge him (life is too damn short.) It did however make the situation awkward so the trip was a loss as I really couldn't engage in conversation afterward. I will know better to ask next time before I touch someone's aircraft. -It's only prudent.

[jiott]

I am really sorry to hear about your bad experience. We would love to have you join the Kitfox family. Think of it this way - choosing and flying an airplane is a very technical process. It should not be an emotional one. John McBean is not only the company owner, but is highly experienced and knowledgeable about the building and flying process. I would much rather have him at the airshow booth, gruff or not, than a kissy-ass salesman who slobers all over you but knows very little about what you came there for. I say give it another try, you will be glad you did.

Jim

[DesertFox4]

While your first meeting could have gone a little smoother I can see why it didn't.


Please understand that the Kitfox's you see are flown there by them and this year by me. They are not static displays or trailer queens. Keeping the aircraft intact and airworthy takes constant vigilance. Their lives and this year , mine depend on it. They ( both John and Deb) love answering the same questions 3 hundred times a day from folks like me and you because they are passionate about their products. Want to get any pilot's less than cordial attention. Mess with the control surfaces of their aircraft especially when they are 1,000 miles or more away from home and any support. I've been stranded further than that from home because of damage done to my Kitfox. It is not fun. You talk about your day being ruined. Me and my co-pilot had to leave my airplane and arrange flights with the airlines to get home to work. 3 months later I get to book another flight to pick up my repaired aircraft. Not much Kitfox flying got done in those 3 months in my house. Then I get to fly it home in the winter with no heater at 10 degrees above zero.:eek:
I wonder how many of our members have attended the factory fly in over the years and watched as I have how many times John dropped everything to rescue or repair a customers aircraft. He never asks if the Kitfox was purchased from Kitfox Aircraft LLC. It's a Kitfox and he goes the extra mile for family.
I know John would love the chance to talk with you in person so I concur with Esser, rwaltman and PaulZ. Do overs are a wonderful thing in life. We seldom get to play that card but your dream is too important to let this stop you now. Have another Capt'n Morgan and give it another go another day. What you need is a demo flight.:)
Oh and Fleinlow- your still in. ;)

[Dave Holl]

Hi
I met Mr McBeen a few years ago at sun and fun with my friend who had purchased a kit a year or so before and I found him quite direct! And I can understand how your situation could have happened. Since that time I have taken over building that kitfox and have had a number of telephone and e mail conversations with him and he has been great, very knowledgable helpful and have suggested ways round the issues I was having. Like some of the others have said maybe he was having an off day! I would suggest it worth giving it another go as my experience of the kitfox it is a well engineered and sorted aircraft and it would be a shame to miss out because of a less than successful first encounter. It would also be worthwhile Mr McBeen reflecting on the incident as I am sure he would not want people walking away from the kitfox with similar feelings!
Dave

[MotReklaw]

Based on what I've seen of other kitplane manufacturers, I think the Kitfox team is lean and mean. When I made two visits to the factory before committing to buy, I was impressed by the lack of office types and and managers. It's pretty much John and Debra running the whole show. When you think about it, the cost of the kit is reflected in how much overhead they have. The kit is competitively priced and the quality of the components is exceptional. I'm afraid that if the McBeans started adding salespeople, demo people, secretaries, etc. either the price or quality would change.

It's easy for me to get my feelings hurt, especially when I don't think I've done anything wrong, but usually on reflection, I can understand why such and such happened.

(my contribution doesn't help anyone build an airplane does it? Sorry).

:)

[jdmcbean]

I have long been excited for the Arlington, WA air show & fly-in to come so I could go see, feel, touch, and immerse myself in all that is Kitfox

First.. let me apologize. I never want to be the cause of one’s trip or excitement to be ruined.. especially when the excitement is about aviation and the Kitfox. I distinctly remember the situation and while you make it sound worse then I remember… I recall telling myself to lighten up he wasn’t abusing the equipment… and you were not.

Please understand that many do not respect the equipment that we fly to and from the air shows all over the country and there has been damage caused not only to our aircraft but many others while “on display”

We spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of man hours to attend the air-shows so that we can show-off our equipment and talk with you about the fun and excitement of the Kitfox and the Kitfox family. Sometimes our skin can get a little thin and we need to take a deep breath.

So I would suggest to you… do not let my “shortness” remove you from the excitement of the Kitfox and the Kitfox family. Hope to visit with you again soon.

[szicree]

Just want to chime in on behalf of the Kitfox crew. Anybody can have a bad day (or moment) and I'm sure John is no exception.

In the course of my Super Sport build I have had many email and phone conversations with both Debra and John and have always found them to be terrific. Just nice, down to earth people who are working hard in a tough business. I say you should put this small hiccup behind you and get going on your build.

[896tr]

Hi Justin.
First of all, why were you looking at Kitfoxes? I suspect you have a specific goal in mind for the airplane you are going to eventually build, I sure did.The Kitfox series 6 was the new model back in 2000 and after looking at everything that I could find on-line I got my wife to say "If you think you can get it financed, go for it." Thanks to John's help and guidance I own serial number 60011042. Yes there were times that I sensed some aggravation in his voice when I asked him a question that he or I had already answered. I too was excited about the prospect of owning a Kitfox so I dismissed my negative thoughts about the whole process of building and owning something that I would eventually fly.
Don't give up on John or Kitfox because of one bad moment in time.
We all make bad decisions once in a while, but we usually think about it and come to another conclusion.
Try to remember why you were thinking Kitfox above the others.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Steve

[napierm]

I went to Oshkosh in 1988 and while there saw a little airplane parked that was *very* similar to the Banty I was building at the time. Anyway, I'm looking it over and looking at the details of how this was connected to that. Before long there is a very irate field worker (or what ever they are called) telling me not so politely to step away from the plane. I might have had a hand on the stick. :o It was darned hot out there and these guys are protecting the owner's aircraft. I completely get that.

However, engineers (and geeks) like to know how things work and to me at least these things are irresistible.

So I've learned to deliberately put my stupid hands in my pockets or behind my back so as to *not* touch the planes while gawking. Consider it a lesson in fly-in etiquette.

FWIW,

Mark

[kitfox2009]

Hello Flienlo
I also was at the Arlington show and spent a couple of visits with a "Kitfox Crew". I would think if any of us had to do these show and tells many times a year at these airshows it would become a bit "stale"!!
I own a mid 90's Skystar Vixen and had a few questions regarding gross weights, baggage compartments and wing tips. I found the guys very helpful although I am sure they all realized that I would probably not be purchasing a new Series 7 kit!!!
The thing to remember about "sales encounters" is that they do not come with the product, although in the case of manufacturing an airplane having the technical expertise available might come in very handy.
Give it another GO!!
Cheers
Don

[rcsfca]

Flienlow-

Take a moment to consider your interaction at Arlington to be a kind of a "go-around" instead of the nice landing you were expecting on the first try because a lot has happened since the unfortunate interaction:

- You shared with us your realization of Rule #1 at airshows - always ask first, plus asking is a nice icebreaker for conversation.

- John chimed in with what is his heart-and-soul approach to people: Deal directly with them, treat them as individuals, and be the first to admit a mistake when you make one. These three elements have taken their aircraft company a very long way in the loyalty department, and it's their dedication that has made building/owning/flying a Kitfox so very special.

- The many posts in reply to your story reveals one very important thread that exists among Kitfox owners: They are passionate about their planes and the community of Kitfox owners. They like a lot of their interactions to be personal because John and Deb have set the tone of cultivating personal relationships. But that takes a LOT of energy and focus to do, and trade shows are incredibly energy sapping for exhibitors. So a misstep like what you experienced can happen from time to time but it's pretty rare with J & D.

Hope this sheds some overall light on what happened.

BTW, there are few companies these days where a customer - especially a builder - can have direct access to the people who make it all happen. But you will have that at Kitfox, so give it a go with them and it will feel like that great landing you were aiming for on your trip to Arlington.

Rich C.
Model IV - 912UL

[Lion8]

Hey Fin. The messages here are all good. I have yet to meet John, but I can relate to his comment. Please understand this. I used to restore classis and antique cars. There is a tremendous amount of hard work that goes into a restoration. I snapped at a couple 4 year old boys who were just about to touch a beautiful black paint job on an antique car. It was part a quick reaction and a response to midigate the damage if they were to inocently wipe their hands on the paint with the dust on it and their hands. I had one woman tell me "I paid my fee(to get into the show) so I have a right to touch any car I want to". John dosen't know what you had in mind.
If you spent a week in my shop you would surley understand why John 'asked' you not to touch the plane. I NEVER touch any Car, Boat or Airplane unless I'm told it is ok by the owner. I always ask if I can help. You also have to understand that running a business like John's is really tough. May many long hours, and days. If your hell bent on looking elsewhere, good luck. If you like the Kitfox-then do what's right. - Lion8 (Tom)

[akarmy]

Hey Justin,

One of the planes you saw was mine (the red and white one) in the booth. I'd be happy to meet up with you sometime and take you for a flight and answer any questions I can.

Now if this wet summer will ever break we might get some flying in yet.