Fuel tank sloshing done.

[inzersv]

Just want to remind anyone who hasn't done so; SLOSH YOUR TANKS. One place I saw slosh three times and another was slosh until clear. One tank took 4 qts of acetone and the other took 5 qts before they drained clear. And then I did one more qt each for good measure. I figure that is good insurance for piece of mind. The first slosh on each tank probably drained what looked to be about one tablespoon of debris. The second about 1/4 teaspoon and then a few particles until I saw no more. Don't slosh, you will be set up for an inflight engine failure. It only took me an hour and twenty six minutes to slosh. ;)

[Paul Z]

John McBean has an alert that tells you how to slosh the tanks. I had run Unleaded Ethanol auto fuel about 3 tanks then it started gumming up. The sliders in the Carbs would stick, and the engine would not idle properly. I did a gallon of Acetone and a gallon of gas the first time to make sure it had enough to "Slosh" the tank walls and top. I then cut to 1/2 Gallon of Acetone and 1/2 Gallon of Gas. I sloshed each tank six times. After sloshing it I could never get it to run very well. I had flow from Mesquite Texas, to Wyers Cave VA to take a Rotax repair Maintenance and Repair class. When I got there I took one of the Carbs off and removed the float bowl, we found that it was full of a light brown sludge. We sent the Carbs of to be rebuilt, after which I was able to get the carbs to balance and the Idle where it needed to be.

I have a couple of postings if you you look under my postings that talks about what I did. It took me more than 1 1/2 hours

[Av8r3400]

I counseled my friend to buy and use a full gallon of acetone per tank in several sloshings. I think he did 5 or 6 per tank to be sure.

He then saved the used slosh to clean brushes from house painting. :)

[rogerh12]

By "sloshings", you mean cleaning and not to use a sloshing type sealant or something like that, yes?

Roger

[Av8r3400]

Correct, Roger. A more accurate word maybe "rinsing" of new tanks.


(Rinsing debris out of the new tanks by sloshing acetone around in them. :))

[Jfquebec]

Acetone is good for all type of fiberglass gas tank????

[Slyfox]

I'm going to put this out. I was told by John that using auto fuel with E10 works very well. I did this. Yes if there is a problem with the tanks, brown yuk will come out, this is ok, this is what the sloshing is suppose to take care of, the coating on the inside of the tanks that need to come off. Once this coating is off you are set to go and can use E10 fuel from than on. Also for a check, you stick your fingers inside the tank and swipe the inside when fueling, if it's sticky inside you have a problem. My tanks are perfect and NO sticky when I refuel.

[Paul Z]

Since I am flying N703KA, I kind of disagree with this. John McBean had flown the plane for 150 hours, and at the time I had the Brown Sticky Problem, I had flown it about a total of 50 hours when I encountered the contamination problem. I would recommend avoiding using E10 Fuel. I used two or three half tanks of E10, and I got to slosh the tanks, and rebuild both Carbs, because of a sticky substance! Sloshing the tanks at $16 per gallon of Acetone, plus $4 for AV Gas, 50/50 Mix plus the $250 or $300 to rebuild the Carbs, plus the A&P Cost (Since mine is a SLSA), I can buy a lot of Av Gas for the $500 to $600 for repairs, plus room and food cost for the week.

Thank goodness I was staying in a Dorm at $30 per night. Not withstanding the down time, and personal agrivation of being stuck in Weyers Cave Virginia for a Week. I do not believe it is worth the fuel savings, for the personal aggrivation!


I'm going to put this out. I was told by John that using auto fuel with E10 works very well. I did this. Yes if there is a problem with the tanks, brown yuk will come out, this is ok, this is what the sloshing is suppose to take care of, the coating on the inside of the tanks that need to come off. Once this coating is off you are set to go and can use E10 fuel from than on. Also for a check, you stick your fingers inside the tank and swipe the inside when fueling, if it's sticky inside you have a problem. My tanks are perfect and NO sticky when I refuel.

[Slyfox]

just going by what John told me and my experience. I've put over 200 hrs on a new tank and use 91E10 100% of the time with no problems. Oh and still no sticky in the tank opening.

[Esser]

I was under the impression that the new tanks were ethanol resistant. Is this not the case?

[Geowitz]

I was under the impression that the new tanks were ethanol resistant. Is this not the case?

They are supposed to be. However, I would guess what is mostly coming out during sloshing is a mold release agent used in the layup process.

Edit: Or a surface hardening agent... or unhardened epoxy on the surface?

[Geowitz]

Since I am flying N703KA, I kind of disagree with this. John McBean had flown the plane for 150 hours, and at the time I had the Brown Sticky Problem, I had flown it about a total of 50 hours when I encountered the contamination problem. I would recommend avoiding using E10 Fuel. I used two or three half tanks of E10, and I got to slosh the tanks, and rebuild both Carbs, because of a sticky substance! Sloshing the tanks at $16 per gallon of Acetone, plus $4 for AV Gas, 50/50 Mix plus the $250 or $300 to rebuild the Carbs, plus the A&P Cost (Since mine is a SLSA), I can buy a lot of Av Gas for the $500 to $600 for repairs, plus room and food cost for the week.

Thank goodness I was staying in a Dorm at $30 per night. Not withstanding the down time, and personal agrivation of being stuck in Weyers Cave Virginia for a Week. I do not believe it is worth the fuel savings, for the personal aggrivation!

I don't think your experience contradicts Slyfox's point. It seems that the regular gas/10% ethanol removes a film from the tank(possibly a mold release agent, surface hardening agent, unhardened eopxy?) that acetone or avgas does not. That's why you had the problem when you added E10. Obviously it is a solvent for something in the tank, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's attacking the fiberglass/epoxy structure. I would bet you don't have the brown sticky problem again with E10 or if you did it would be minimal and eventually disappear.

[Paul Z]

Sure you can use ethanol, but be prepaired you may have a brown sticky build up in your carbs. It make it a little difficult to land with the carbs stuck open! I am just trying to address the SAFETY issue. I really don't like having to kill the engine and doing a dead stick landing to get it safely on the ground!

[Geowitz]

Sure you can use ethanol, but be prepaired you may have a brown sticky build up in your carbs. It make it a little difficult to land with the carbs stuck open! I am just trying to address the SAFETY issue. I really don't like having to kill the engine and doing a dead stick landing to get it safely on the ground!

Chill out, not trying to be snippy with you. Just trying to brainstorm for actual answers to the complications. Screaming "SAFETY" is really a straw man argument at this point as the argument isn't about safety - I'm not advocating that anyone be unsafe. There have been plenty of people without problems. Not to say that there isn't a problem, but I'm still pretty curious as to why such a range of opinions.

[Slyfox]

All I know is I recieved from John the bulletin to slosh my tanks, mainly because I bought a brand new one from him in the last couple years. Yes, I called him and the sloshing is to remove the lay up layer. I think he mentioned acetone works for this reason. I asked him if E10 could be used for I did this when I got the tank. He said it would do the same thing. I than just went on with life as usuall, as well as started checking inside the tank when refueling to see if the tank was, as you might call it, coming apart. I have no ill feeling on using E10 and at this point never will. I do suggest a person test your fuel, many times I come up with 5% alki, but sometimes 10% for me.

Paul, I can understand your stand, you had a terrible happening, one I wouldn't want to go through. It's possible that your tanks are set up now for E10, maybe not, maybe there is something terribly wrong with your tanks, I can't advise you on that. I just know mine are just fine and will continue to use E10.

[Slyfox]

I would like to add. If I was doing an airplane and sloshed my tanks with what ever you were using and was having a plan to use E10. I would put in E10 for a test and let set in the tanks to see if a problem comes up with such fuel in the tanks.

[Paul Z]

I get it keep my mouth shut!

[Slyfox]

I don't think you need to.

[rogerh12]

What about just sealing the old (non alcohol resistant) tanks with this stuff that aircraft spruce sells:

This is impervious to all fuel types. Over 2,000,000 sold to date. It is the best way to repair and restore your fuel tank. Simple application, includes extensive application information and product information sheet. Will seal pinhole leaks and prevent rusting. 1 Pint will seal a 10-12 gallon tank. Good for all fuel types. Works well with all metal and fiberglass tanks.

Note: For Experimental Aircraft Only!


http://216.23.190.132/catalog/graphics/09-02565.gif

[Geowitz]

I would like to add. If I was doing an airplane and sloshed my tanks with what ever you were using and was having a plan to use E10. I would put in E10 for a test and let set in the tanks to see if a problem comes up with such fuel in the tanks.

Agree 100%. There seems to be such a wide experience range on this issue that testing is absolutely necessary for each individual situation. It's really not accurate to proclaim that everyone should avoid it.

Paul - So did you land doing 85 knots with the engine running or did you dead stick it?

[Jfquebec]

At the end of the service bulletins #60 that said...

" Tanks that do not have serial numbers etched in the side of the tank were manufactured prior to November 2007. Do not use Acetone in these tanks. They do need to be rinsed thoroughly but rinsing with AVGAS would be the suggested rinse media."


Be carefull with acetone..;)

[Paul Z]

Agree 100%. There seems to be such a wide experience range on this issue that testing is absolutely necessary for each individual situation. It's really not accurate to proclaim that everyone should avoid it.

Paul - So did you land doing 85 knots with the engine running or did you dead stick it?

The first time I encountered the problem was when I was giving a guy from OK a ride. He was interested in buying a Kitfox, and then I had this problem. When I pulled it out of the hanger and cranked her up she was idling a little rough. We went for a flight, I was trying to demo slow flight, and I couldn'tt chop the throttle. We headed back to the airport, and we had a fun landing at about 80. when the mains hit, I hit so hard it slammed the nose wheel down really hard. I pulled back on the stick to try and hold the nose up, I got a really bad shimmy, turns out it broke the Nose Wheel pant, and it was grabbing the whose wheel causing the shimmy.

The second time it had occurred, I had drained the tanks and put in AvGas, and used Carb Cleaner to unstick the carbs sliders. It seemed to be OK but when I went around the patch they stuck again. This time I opted to kill the engine on final and dead stick her in, much better landing.

After that I sloshed the tanks, replaced fuel lines, cleaned the Carbs again, and again, avoiding taking them apart. I finally got it idling pretty good and it wasn't sticking any more. When I went to Weyers Cave for the Rotax Class, it started it again on the trip. When I got to Weyers Cave I pulled th Carbs and had them rebuilt before the problem went away.

[ken nougaret]

i looked up this thread because i'm about to rinse my tanks before installing in my ss kit. my manual says to fill the tank 1/4 full with ???. the word water was crossed out. and then on the picture page is a green sticky that says use acetone 3 times, and do not reuse acetone. it sounds to me like i have to put approximately 3 gallons of acetone in each tank 3 times. that's 18 gallons of acetone! is this right?
thanks, ken

[Dorsal]

I used 1/2 gallon per tank each time, ran pretty clear on the last rinse. Also my tanks were built ~2000 and the acetone worked great. The tank were sticky originally, not so after rinsing. My story on this is on another thread somewhere.

[ken nougaret]

thanks dorsal. i know common sense says you don't need 18 gallons, it's just the way it's written. i'll pick up a couple of gallons at home depot.
ken

[cap01]

When I drained the acetone I used a paint strainer to see what came out . Amazing how much junk came out .

[jiott]

I did the same with a paint strainer but didn't see anything; it looked like fresh acetone. Of course my tanks were fairly new, bought in March 2011.

Jim

[cap01]

i was amazed at how much came out with the acetone rinse . the first two a lot then the third time it was good .

[Dorsal]

I did not get particulate but my first rinse came out the color of coffee :eek:

[Paul Z]

It look like a very weak coffee.