nose wheel strength

[WISDAN]

I talked to an FAA inspector ( Milwaukee FSDO ) today and he informed he once saw a nose gear that had bend on landing causing a crash on a model 4 1200. Does anyone else have any experiance or have heard of any issues on this?

Thanks

Dan G.

[SkySteve]

I suppose if you land on the nose wheel it could bend, but you should be landing on the main gear, holding the nose up and gently flying the nose to the ground as you lose lift, not letting it drop to the ground.

[DanB]

Steve, I happen to working on doing this very thing. It is taking a little practice to know when I can hold back on the stick ( and not fly again) to keep the front wheel from coming down and hitting. It is not really an issue in calm weather with flaps and feathering it in. The trick is when it is windy and I need to come in a little hot. Just learning the characteristics of this little Fox. :)
Having a blast though

[WISDAN]

I know what you guys are saying and i agree the nose wheel needs to be held of the runway and lowered as soft as possible as with any airplane. Just wondering why the FAA thought this nose gear was weaker than others.

[SkySteve]

I didn't read anything in your post saying the FAA said the Kitfox nose wheel was weaker than other planes. I read that ONE FAA guy stated he had seen ONE bent. Which is it?

[Dave S]

I am not so sure that the observation "once saw a nose gear that had bend on landing" is particularily noteworthy....For the record; for every model of light aircraft with a nose gear - someone has found a way to bend it.:rolleyes:

One Service bulletin to check:

http://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/support/service_bulletins/sb55.htm

Some time ago (like about 2001) there was some scuttlebutt about cracks showing up on the nosegear strut of earlier models - check out the SB for your information.

This does not seem to be a big issue; however the nose gear strut was apparently modified/strengthened at one point.

It is important to note that the cracks observed appear to be associated with certain earlier nosegears; and, in conjunction with the use of heavy engines and excessive operational loading of the nosegear.

I'd check the SB and then not worry about it if the plane does not have earlier version of nosegear.:cool:

Sincerely,

Dave S

[DanB]

I know what you guys are saying and i agree the nose wheel needs to be held of the runway and lowered as soft as possible as with any airplane. Just wondering why the FAA thought this nose gear was weaker than others.

Not sure what the circumstances were there, however, I do know that the first nose wheel gears sold for the IV are less stout than what is now sold. The front gear was beefed up for the model V and up and the IV was re-engineered a few years back.

[SkySteve]

Steve, I happen to working on doing this very thing. It is taking a little practice to know when I can hold back on the stick ( and not fly again) to keep the front wheel from coming down and hitting. It is not really an issue in calm weather with flaps and feathering it in. The trick is when it is windy and I need to come in a little hot. Just learning the characteristics of this little Fox. :)
Having a blast though

Dan,
Try this: Normally your descent rate from downwind when abeam the threshold to very short final is approx 500 per minute. As you begin to enter ground effect pull back smoothly on the stick to increase Angle Of Attack and reduce power to slow descent to 300 FPM. I bet you touch down softly and controlled on the mains with the nose remaining nicely in the air. Now hold it...hold it until you feel the quicker slowdown. Right there smoothly start moving the stick forward, always controlling the smoothness of motion. If it's windy just do the same thing even if you are adding flaperon and/or rudder at a little higher speed. Remember on final your airspeed is controlled by your stick and descent rate is controlled by your power.

[DesertFox4]

Likely poor pilot technique but who knows with so little information.
There are hundreds of tri-gear Kitfox flying in all kinds of conditions every day. If there was a problem you'd be reading about it here.



Just wondering why the FAA thought this nose gear was weaker than others. One inspector does not make up the entire FAA. Don't fall for what could be a personal bias. RV's have had several nose gear incidents yet he doesn't mention them or Cessna's or Pipers and I dare say those two have had their share of nose gear failures over the years.;)

[rogerh12]

I installed the new noise gear retrofit kit on my model-4-1200 last year.

The noise gear itself is honking, probably rated for a 1320 lbs or more plane. The kit included a steel plate and cross braces to reinforce the fuse as well. No rebound dampening though, just rubber doughnuts for shock absorption.

Looks like it would roll over long grass and pot holes ok, but wouldn't take well to a plowed field if you landed nose wheel first.

Hope this helps

Roger

[SkySteve]

Did you say plowed field ... Nose first ... ?:eek::eek::eek::eek:
Short landing though ;)

[rogerh12]

see attached

3425

[DesertFox6]

SEE? That's what happens when you put the "little" wheel on the wrong end!
I keep tellin' people that...nobody listens to me...I just can't imagine what's next...engines without props or something equally ridiculous I suppose! :rolleyes:

"E.T."
(sigh)

[Av8r3400]

SEE? That's what happens when you put the "little" wheel on the wrong end!

That's what I was thinking... :confused:

[WISDAN]

Roger, Your nose gear is much more stout than mine, I must have the early version of gear. Thanks to all for your comments on this everybody.

Dan G.

[DanB]

SEE? That's what happens when you put the "little" wheel on the wrong end!
I keep tellin' people that...nobody listens to me...I just can't imagine what's next...engines without props or something equally ridiculous I suppose! :rolleyes:

"E.T."
(sigh)

LOL E.T. ...I was wonderin when someone was gunna chime in with that. 6 of 1...half a dozen the other I always sez. Skill-sets to learn for both and I aint never heard of a nose dragger doin a ground loop. :D

[DanB]

Dan,
Try this: Normally your descent rate from downwind when abeam the threshold to very short final is approx 500 per minute. As you begin to enter ground effect pull back smoothly on the stick to increase Angle Of Attack and reduce power to slow descent to 300 FPM. I bet you touch down softly and controlled on the mains with the nose remaining nicely in the air. Now hold it...hold it until you feel the quicker slowdown. Right there smoothly start moving the stick forward, always controlling the smoothness of motion. If it's windy just do the same thing even if you are adding flaperon and/or rudder at a little higher speed. Remember on final your airspeed is controlled by your stick and descent rate is controlled by your power.

Thanks Steve,
how much flap would you consider adding in say a 10 mph crosswind? I'm still on the cautious end of floating in at say an airspeed of 55 and having a gust slow me down faster than I want. I've got the technique of just holding the stick back (haven't done the porpoise dance since student pilot), but I know the more flap you have the less aileron control there is. I know it's just going to be more practice, but I like hearing others technique.

[SkySteve]

Dan,
For me, I don't use any flaperon in a crosswind above about 5-6 mph. I'm over the threshold at 45 mph and usually wheels on the ground about 40 mph or less. I'm probably lighter than you (660#) so take that into consideration. Every landing I do is a spot landing trying to set down on my chosen spot and have the plane just above that "we're done flying" speed. That is critical when landing on the soft desert floor or a sagebrush covered ranch road.

The place that I have learned more about landing than anywhere is at 3,000 ft AGL in slow flight, just above stall. I have spent hours flying as slow as I can fly (and continue to do this on a regular basis) without flaperons, 1/2 flaps and full flaps doing 360's, 180's, S turns, whatever. Just flying the plane to get the "feel" of my plane in slow fligh. After my last BFR my instructor wrote in my logbook, "Steve (Mr. Brick One) has demonstrated outstanding controll of his aircraft during slow flight and precision landings)". I like the Mr. Brick One part.

So why don't I covert my plane back to a Ground Looper? Because so far I have been able to land comfortably in some pretty rough spots and I really like to be able to see in front of me when on the ground. Half flaps and stick all the way back on takeoff gets the Nosewheel off the ground within 20 ft or so, then popping to full flaps and I'm off the ground quick. Flying in ground affect as I bleed off the flaps and away I go. I will not land on rocks next to a river but would certainly land on a packed gravel bar after doing a "Nosewheel up" touch & go to feel how solid it is. Same thing for a dry lake bottom, looking for wet tracks after the touch & go.

Disclaimer: I am not a CFI nor do I have a gazillion years and hours of flying. The majority of my landing is off pavement because that is what I like to do.

[rogerh12]

Another angle (see attached)

[SkySteve]

Did 10 T&G's today on the dirt strip at Ogden's airport (KOGD). The Nosewheel never touched the ground until the final full stop landing.

Hey, ET, why don't we compromise and just get rid of all our nosewheels and tailwheels?

[DanB]

Dan,
For me, I don't use any flaperon in a crosswind above about 5-6 mph. I'm over the threshold at 45 mph and usually wheels on the ground about 40 mph or less.

Steve,
Thanks for the well thought out answer. Very good advice as I am currently working through the different maneuvers. I need to work the slow flight much more.
Dan

[DesertFox6]

SkySteve, you may not be a CFI (yet!) but your entries in this forum tell me you have the right attitude to instruct as you continue to provide solid, valuable, advice to our merry membership; I appreciate and admire the help you offer others.

(FULL DISCLOSURE ADMISSION FOLLOWS! ) In my "day-job" I fly Cessna nose-draggers for Uncle Sam and approach every landing like you do, enjoying T&Gs without spinning the "little wheel" up front. If we don't put a little challenge into everything we do while flying we'll never get better and I can assure everyone there are times I'm VERY glad to be landing with a nose wheel rather than my taildragger. Without the sordid details, my last trip to El Paso comes to mind, landing during a cold front passage with 38 knot winds that were most definitely NOT aligned with Rwy 26L! ;)

Good stick and rudder skills in any aircraft will save the day or at least a lot of money and heartburn; we should take rightful pride in what we do not with bluster but by emulating earnest attitudes like SkySteve's: Good on ya Dude!

"E.T."
(This hobby has its own brand of humor: I still love it after 40+ years!) :D

[DesertFox4]

E.T. and SkySteve prove that, in our Kitfox's, copious amounts of fun is always readily available no matter which end we bolt that third wheel to.


If we don't put a little challenge into everything we do while flying we'll never get better The Choir says, Amen!:)

[wannafly]

wow I love this form...great info, good humor, and general all around great people...