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84KF
07-13-2008, 05:09 AM
There is a continuing discussion on "another" site about doing spins and aerobatics in Kitfox model aircraft.

My question here is .... What do your Operating Limitations say??

Mine states....
"This aircraft is prohibited from aerobatic flight, that is, an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in the aircraft’s attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration not necessary for normal flight."

Does anyone have modified operating limitations to include aerobatics maneuvers in any Kitfox model?

And yes, I saw the aerobatics demo at Oshkosh years ago. Factory aircraft and pilot I believe. Excellent.

Sorry..., irresponsibility and flagrant violations irks me. (maybe I just need another cup of coffee. It's early yet.)

David McCormick
07-13-2008, 10:59 AM
I also saw that aerobatic Kitfox demo, thats what sold me on the Kitfox knowing that would be more stress then I would ever put on my Kitfox. I like low and slow flying and being able to go to short fields.

RandyL
07-13-2008, 06:06 PM
Steve,

If your Operating Limitations prohibit aerobatics then you might consider going through the hassle of getting them changed, it can be done. Of course all the normal cautions apply, and be sure and note that the Kitfox was designed an engineered as a Standard category aircraft which means +3.8 and -1.1 Gs. Summary of Super Sport specs here (http://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/SS%20Specs.htm), not sure about the earlier models.

Of course lots of maneuvers can be flown within those limits if flown properly. I was just talking to John McBean at the Arlington Airshow and he was saying that he'd like to see a Kitfox routine back on the airshow circuit again, maybe similar to what Jimmy Franklin used to do.

84KF
07-13-2008, 07:16 PM
Randy,
I have no desire to do aerobatics in the plane and no interest in having the operating limitations changed.

My point was\is that unless the operating limitations do include aerobatics maneuvers, performing such would violate the limits prescribed by the FAA for that particular aircraft...., a point of interest seemingly overlooked and not mentioned by the posters encouraging and/or performing the act.

I prefer a more conventional machine. :) (see attachment)

DesertFox4
10-03-2008, 01:45 AM
I did aerobatics in my model 4 during phase 1 of my flight testing and told my D.A.R. that I intended to . He gave me instructions and included a section in my Operating Limitations for the types of maneuvers I would be including in my limitations. I carry them in the aircraft of course.
I did put my model 4 through loops, rolls, spins and stalls and entered them in the limitations after the test flight. They are now a permanent part of the Operating Limitations and allow those specific maneuvers in my Kitfox.
Now , I understood at the time of my inspection that I had to do the flight testing in Phase 1 and enter it in the Operating Limitations and sign them or it could not be put through the maneuvers after Phase 1 period. To do so would be a violation according to the DAR.


My model 4 recovers quickly from spins in 1 to 1.5 turns.
Loops are straight forward in the 4. Rolls are pretty quick even with the long wings.
I do know of another Kitfox 4 that was built locally that went through the
"aerobatic" testing during Phase 1 also. It has since been sold but it also performed the "basic" maneuvers safely.

Now the warning. If your Kitfox does not state in the Operating Limitations that it can perform the above mentioned maneuvers do not attempt them. Do not attempt them unless you have received training from a qualified flight instructor. Ok that's out of the way.

Please don't assume by my post that I do these flight maneuvers on a regular basis. I do not. I really don't enjoy aerobatics as much as I did when I was younger. If I did , I would not do them regularly in my Kitfox. That's not the kind of flying I like to do at this stage of my life.
I do like knowing that my Kitfox can handle the maneuvers when done properly.
I also like knowing how it behaves in a spin and how to properly recover from one since spin training is not required anymore. Trust me, a Kitfox will spin just like any other aircraft if you get sloppy with it. Keep the ball centered.

rockyrim
10-03-2008, 01:43 PM
My Series7 includes limited aerobatics in the operating limitations. As a matter of fact, the DAR insisted on it. We weren't bold enough to write it
in, and he said "This plane is perfect for limited aerobatics,
at least in your operating limitations." Anyway, I borrowed a chute, and in phase 3 of flight testing, got in the mandatory rolls and loops. Man, what fun, what an airplane. I discovered my Dynon had the wrong software, so
the ball was of no help. So I just relaxed and flew the plane.

Disclaimer: I am recognized by the FAA as the builder of N51RD, to test pilot this aircaft, and perform maintenance of same. I in no way encourage others
to follow any of the actions I have mentioned above.
Rocky Whitman CMEI

Denise and Rocky Whitman
Series 7 912S
Austin, Tx.

airlina
10-03-2008, 02:14 PM
Rocky, I have a Series 5 and would like to start performing mild aerobatics with it. I have spun it but to date no rolls or loops. Can you give me some specifics like entry speeds and techniques that you used. The guy that owns my airstrip is an aerobatic instructor, so I plan on some dual with him first. thanks Bruce

RandyL
10-03-2008, 03:50 PM
Steve (84KF) is correct, unfortunately people go fly aerobatics when their Operating Limitations either prohibit it outright, or don't provide for it. I agree that this is "irresponsible and a flagrant violation" of the aircraft's Operating Limitations, and just plain not too smart.

Most Operating Limitations put in place since around 2000 conform to FAA Order 8130.2D CHG2 and CHG3 and have language similar to this...


(15) This aircraft is prohibited from aerobatic flight, that is, an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in the aircraft’s attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration not necessary for normal flight.


NOTE: If the builder states that the aircraft is capable of aerobatic flight, limitation 16 will be used in lieu of limitation 15.
(16) This aircraft may conduct aerobatic flight in accordance with the provisions of § 91.303. Aerobatics must not be attempted until sufficient flight experience has been gained to establish that the aircraft is satisfactorily controllable and in compliance with § 91.319(b). The aircraft may only conduct those aerobatic flight maneuvers that have been satisfactorily accomplished during flight testing and recorded in the aircraft maintenance records by use of the following, or a similarly worded, statement: “I certify that the following aerobatic maneuvers have been test flown and that the aircraft is controllable throughout the maneuvers’ normal range of speeds, and is safe for operation. The flight-tested aerobatic maneuvers are _________, _________, __________, and __________.”


NOTE: Aerobatic flights may be permitted in the assigned test area. The applicant should be advised that aerobatics or violent maneuvers should not be attempted until sufficient flight experience has been gained to establish that the aircraft is satisfactorily controllable. These operating limitations may be modified to include only those aerobatics/maneuvers that have been satisfactorily accomplished and recorded in the aircraft records during the flight test period. These aerobatic maneuvers should be permitted upon leaving the assigned test area. Appropriate limitations identifying the aerobatics/maneuvers and conditions under which they may be performed should be prescribed. The FAA may witness aerobatic maneuvers if deemed necessary.

So, if your Operating Limitations are written correctly then while you are in Phase 1 operations you need to perform all the maneuvers you want the aircraft to be legal for and make an entry summarizing the maneuvers you've done in your airframe logbook as indicated above.

It IS POSSIBLE to get your Operating Limitations changed if they do indeed prohibit aerobatics. It is a bit of a hassle but worth it if you'd like to loop or roll or whatever.

All this said we should all realize that the Kitfox is a 'Standard Category' aircraft which means it was designed for operation within a +3.8g and -1.52g envelope.

rockyrim
10-03-2008, 04:57 PM
Bruce,

I did my aerobatics training in a super decathlon. As Randy as aptly stated, you have some hoops to jump before you consider aerobatics. Be prudent, and enjoy your fantastic airpane.

Rocky

jonstark
08-05-2018, 07:03 PM
I did aerobatics in my model 4 during phase 1 of my flight testing and told my D.A.R. that I intended to . He gave me instructions and included a section in my Operating Limitations for the types of maneuvers I would be including in my limitations. I carry them in the aircraft of course.
I did put my model 4 through loops, rolls, spins and stalls and entered them in the limitations after the test flight. They are now a permanent part of the Operating Limitations and allow those specific maneuvers in my Kitfox.
Now , I understood at the time of my inspection that I had to do the flight testing in Phase 1 and enter it in the Operating Limitations and sign them or it could not be put through the maneuvers after Phase 1 period. To do so would be a violation according to the DAR.


My model 4 recovers quickly from spins in 1 to 1.5 turns.
Loops are straight forward in the 4. Rolls are pretty quick even with the long wings.
I do know of another Kitfox 4 that was built locally that went through the
"aerobatic" testing during Phase 1 also. It has since been sold but it also performed the "basic" maneuvers safely.

Now the warning. If your Kitfox does not state in the Operating Limitations that it can perform the above mentioned maneuvers do not attempt them. Do not attempt them unless you have received training from a qualified flight instructor. Ok that's out of the way.

Please don't assume by my post that I do these flight maneuvers on a regular basis. I do not. I really don't enjoy aerobatics as much as I did when I was younger. If I did , I would not do them regularly in my Kitfox. That's not the kind of flying I like to do at this stage of my life.
I do like knowing that my Kitfox can handle the maneuvers when done properly.
I also like knowing how it behaves in a spin and how to properly recover from one since spin training is not required anymore. Trust me, a Kitfox will spin just like any other aircraft if you get sloppy with it. Keep the ball centered.

My phase I program includes acro.
What are your entry speeds for loops and rolls?

Jon

dcsfoto
08-07-2018, 06:20 PM
Read limitations close the newer limitations we issue should have an item
around #20 any aerobatics you intend in Phase II must be done in Phase I and documented in the aircraft records the limitation gives an example.

you can always get a DAR to Amend your limitations to a current version and
make a aircraft record entry going back to Phase I do your testing and make an aircraft record entry going back to Phase II

David Kelm
A&P,IA,DART,DARF
7SS 912iS Garmin G3X

jonstark
08-07-2018, 06:42 PM
Hey David,
How about flight with doors open or removed? Where or when would this be declared?

Jon

dcsfoto
08-07-2018, 06:51 PM
there is no requirement to have doors on a EAB aircraft.

David Kelm