Newbie from Seattle (with all the usual questions)

[Flienlow]

Hi guys-

Something happened to me that I cant quite figure out. For some odd reason, I have stong desire in life to build an airplane. My biggest problem is....That desire wont go away. It makes no sence, both logical or finanacial yet it is something I believe I would like to persue.
In my quest for fire I decided the best approach is to go out and beat the brush by talking to the folks that have boldly gone before me. I recently had the opportunity to take a ride in someone's RV-7. It was a great experience both on and off the ground. This guy didnt know me from adam and invited me up to his hangar. He showed me around his tools, some of the skills it took to build the RV, and then introduced me to a barrel roll. The RV line up is wonderful, but I dont think that is what I am looking for. I have been looking at the Highlander and the "dead Stick" videos on youtube. I have also been looking at the ugly ardvark (ch750), and yes the kitfox. I would want something that is STOHL and so far the kit is not looking like it would workout for short off airport ops??? Other things I would be interested in would be folding wings for self storage, and the ability to go from float plane to tail dragger and perhaps tricycle. I must be honest and tell you all, I dont know the first thing about building an airplane be it aluminum, or fabric.

I would love to hear insights from you builders on your build experience, why you chose the way you did, and whatever else you would be willing to share.

Also, if someone knows where I could see one of these planes in person?


Thank you in advance.

[akarmy]

Hi guys-
Also, if someone knows where I could see one of these planes in person?


Just like your RV introduction, I would be happy to show you around the Kitfox. I have a fairly new Series 7 based in Auburn. Let me know if you would like to meet up some weekend and check it out.

[Flienlow]

Absolutely! PM Sent!

[jiott]

Here is what sold me on Kitfox:

Brand new plane for the same price as a very used certified aircraft.
Folding wings so I can share hanger space.
Kit quality and aircraft performance.
Factory support.
Test flight was awsome.
STOL capabilities.
No welding and nearly no solid riveting.
Rotax 912s engine reputation and fuel economy-about half the burn rate at cruise compared to most certified Cessnas, Pipers, etc. and the ability to use auto fuel.
Build manual is the best out there.
A factory visit impressed me with their organization, neatness, cleanliness, fixtures. A class outfit.
Side by side seating.
Useful load capacity.
A long successful and safe history. 3500+ planes built and flying I beleive.
A very beautiful and pleasing to the eye airplane. Just look at some of the slab sided, breadbox looking competitors out there.
No, I am not a salesman for the McBeans.
Jim

[Agfoxflyer]

I believe the Kitfox series is second only to the RV series in number of homebuilts built and flying. Don't know the other aircrafts you mentioned, numbers but sure they are not anywhere near Kitfox numbers. I currently fly a RV-9A and enjoy flying it. But as far as fun it doesn't compare to my Kitfox 5. I hope to get it back in the air someday. You can't go wrong with a Kitfox, IMHO.

[896tr]

I had been looking at kit planes for a long time and what sold me on building a Kitfox was the video Skystar had on the net at the time. All of the company's had specs for their planes but air speed or 3.6 positive g's or 1.6 negative just wasn't registering in my brain. Then, I saw the Kitfox. The video showed a Kitfox doing aerobatics to Aerosmiths Sweet Emotion. As the words played and the plane went from a loop straight into a three turn spin I knew that was the plane I would build. It's almost done and I am so glad that I too will be able to say "why yes, I did build that".

[Flienlow]

I had been looking at kit planes for a long time and what sold me on building a Kitfox was the video Skystar had on the net at the time. All of the company's had specs for their planes but air speed or 3.6 positive g's or 1.6 negative just wasn't registering in my brain. Then, I saw the Kitfox. The video showed a Kitfox doing aerobatics to Aerosmiths Sweet Emotion. As the words played and the plane went from a loop straight into a three turn spin I knew that was the plane I would build. It's almost done and I am so glad that I too will be able to say "why yes, I did build that".

The more I get to looking at this plane, the more I get to liking it it. I am starting to fall in love with that radial engine, but I imagine that would be very pricey. How long (in years) does it take to complete, and what is the hardest part about building one?

[inzersv]

I think the hardest part is finding the time to get it built, especially if you are still working. IMHO :rolleyes:

[Esser]

The more I get to looking at this plane, the more I get to liking it it. I am starting to fall in love with that radial engine, but I imagine that would be very pricey. How long (in years) does it take to complete, and what is the hardest part about building one?

When I was considering buying my kit I asked John Mcbean that and he said he didn't like quoting times since ever one was different but figure on 800-1200 hours depending on your quick build options. So if you could work on it 20 hours a week it would take you roughly a year. As far as the radial engine, buying the engine you like right off the bat is cheaper than buy 2 and 2 firewall forward kits.

[HighWing]

I doubt the radial engine will mesh with your STOL goals. No alternative engine in practice has ever matched the light weight and performance you will get with a Rotax. Some airplanes look great on the ground, some fly great. It is definitely a personal choice there. Regarding building, One of the factors in build time is always the complexity you choose. If you build strictly according to the book, the build time will be shorter. If you decide you need "cup holders" or custom fiberglass wing root fairings, the build time will be longer. This is one of the big variables. That is one of my problems. The basic structure is factory, but I have numerous custom modifications on my project. Most are either for weight reduction or drag reduction - trying to approach the Highlander STOL performance while enhancing the Kitfox cruise performance.
Lowell

[Flienlow]

I doubt the radial engine will mesh with your STOL goals. No alternative engine in practice has ever matched the light weight and performance you will get with a Rotax.

Please forgive my ignorance, but is a $30,000.00 Snowmobile engine really the better choice? Doesn't it get noisy for X-Crountry flight? (I'm simply asking and not trying to be a tool because I simply dont know.)

I have been looking into a Viking engine as well as Corvair conversion. The Cost factor seems to be within the spirit of low cost "roll your own" aviation. More info is need though, as I have no desire to build a Lawn dart.

[Dorsal]

$30,000? Snowmobile? Noisy? Not sure where you are getting your info.
Lots of threads on the engine topic, I'm very happy with the Rotax aircraft engine though it may not be the cheapest option.

[Av8r_Sed]

The 912 Rotax series 4 strokes are hardly snowmobile engines and are known for good reliability, power and high TBO in a lightweight compact package. I haven't known them to be any noisier than other common aircraft powerplants. While expensive, they allow a builder to complete their project with the least amount of hassle and head scratching time.

The alternatives mentioned can save some money for sure, but you need to have the right mindset to solve the inevitable challenges that will arise. If you ever want to sell the plane with an alternative engine the pool of potential buyers will be smaller and the selling price will reflect what's installed up front.

Also, carefully research the alternative engine vendor's track record and make sure they're someone you're willing to invest hard earned money with. There's plenty of stories out there of unhappy buyers.

-- Paul S

[Flienlow]

I can only go off of what little I have read so far. But in every Rotax airplane video I see, the engine sounds very loud, buzzy,and high reving, hence the concern. Is the 912 enough engine with only 80 hp? My 30k figure was for a turbo914 rotax. It also seems difficult to find engine pricing (or at least for me.)
I completely agree with "While expensive, they allow a builder to complete their project with the least amount of hassle and head scratching time." There is something to be said for that. However, I am fat, my friends are fat, and I would eventully like to have a float version of an SS7.More power couldnt hurt?

Guys- I really appricate you taking the time to talk to me about this!

Thank you.

[inzersv]

Flienflow, I went to the factory and flew in McBean's SS. I am hard of hearing, but had no problem carrying on a converstion with John. We were using nice set of headsets, but I took them off during the flight and still had no problem talking. It didn't really sound any louder than the Cessnas that I used to fly. The last I talked to John, the Rotax 912S, 100HP is selling for just over $18900. I am going with this engine because it will give me everything I need to fly the Idaho/Washington backcountry plus great xcounty capabilities. I also can't afford the 914.

[inzersv]

One other comment. Most of the videos that I have seen are KFIV and usually running the 500 series, two stroke engines which are more noisy than the four strokes. I haven't seen too many SS videos. Any of you SS pilots have any videos to post or let us know where to find more of them?

[Esser]

One other comment. Most of the videos that I have seen are KFIV and usually running the 500 series, two stroke engines which are more noisy than the four strokes. I haven't seen too many SS videos. Any of you SS pilots have any videos to post or let us know where to find more of them?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j631Wa_iGfc

Here is a 912 taking off. Doesn't seem that loud to me.

[Flienlow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j631Wa_iGfc

Here is a 912 taking off. Doesn't seem that loud to me.


I do believe that May have just changed my position on the Rotax. ;)

I did call Kitfox today. Had another very nice conversation. She told me they are also doing some testing on the viking motor. The Advice was not to buy everything at once as technology changes fast. That will be something I will heed. I do want to kick a few tires and make sure this is the right thing for me to do. I also want some good face time with them at the Arlington Airshow.

Where is Liberty Lake?

[cap01]

There is something to be said for not buying the engine or avionics right away .
When my kit was purchased in 1991 the engine was bought not too long after and wasn't started until 2009 when I first started it . Now i have a twenty year old engine with 400 hrs on it .

[inzersv]

Liberty Lake is in Washington on the stateline between Spokane and
Couer d'Alene, ID. Bedroom community of Spokane more or less. I just received my SS7 kit the 24th of March and have about 60 hours into it. The weather is warming up so the hours will be adding up faster. If your ever in my neck of the woods just call and come see. 509-939-1066

[Av8r3400]

One of the common complaints of my friends whose grass strips I fly into is my plane (912UL) is so quiet they don't know I've arrived until I knock on their door... The last complaint anyone will ever make about a 912 is that it's noisy.

[av8rps]

I think the factory's advice to buy the engine later is really good advice.

And if you just can't swing a new 912, take the time while you are building to shop around for a good deal on a used one. I have a bunch of friends that have bought used 912's and have been real happy with them. And fwiw, you can upgrade a 80 hp 912 to a 115 hp 914 for about 9 grand, or make it a 92+ hp version with a thousand dollar high-compression piston kit. I also seem to recall someone (might have been either one of the guys on this forum, or maybe on the Highlander forum?) that recently bought a reconditioned 100 hp 912S from Lockwood for $11,500. So I'm absolutely convinced you can find a used 912 for the same or less than you can buy even the lowest priced 912 alternatives like the Corvair or Viking. And even if you decide to upgrade the 912 after buying it, you will still end up with a nice engine for a low price. Plus you have an engine and an airplane that is very easy to sell should you ever decide to part with it. (I have a spare 200 hr used 912s that I damn near have to guard ;)).

And if you intend to fly amphib floats as you mentioned, using a 912 is especially important. I've seen a lot of amphib LSA type aircraft over the years, and aside from a handful of expensive examples (like a Carbon Cub with a 180 hp engine and virtually no useful load), the only good performing LSA type amphibs were all 912 powered. When you strap a set of 230+ pound floats on the bottom of a light aircraft, you need the rest of the airplane to be as light as possible while still having a lot of power. And it really is all about weight because you will need a much higher than average horsepower to weight ratio, and a much lower than average wing loading. So the lighter the airplane the better both of those numbers will look. And actually horsepower is really not the term to use. It should be thrust per pound. And since that is where a 912 really excels, and because it's slow turning prop is ultra efficient, it is like it was built to be on a float plane. In addition, the 912's low fuel burn also helps immensely, as not having to carry a bunch of fuel around improves your payload and range.

I can understand anyone not liking the new 912 prices, but in order to be fair you need to compare a NEW aircraft engine to the price of the 912. If you do that with a Lycoming or Continental the Rotax looks like a pretty good deal. The auto or marine conversions made by other manufacturers are not NEW components. They typically use existing engine components. I believe Viking is using a used Honda engine, and the Corvairs are using engine components that haven't been made since the 60's. I'm not knocking those engine options, but you have to compare apples to apples to be fair about making comparisons.

I like most other 912 Kitfox owners like my 912 very much. I find it a VERY efficient engine that works EXCEPTIONALLY well in my Kitfox. So when you get to that point, I would strongly recommend the 912 Rotax. Especially if you ultimately plan to fly off the water, as it is more critical in that mode than any other use I can think of putting an aircraft through.

Oh, and on building an airplane; Building an airplane can appear to be an overhwhelming task when you look at the whole project. The secret is to embrace the project as one of enjoyment, and thinking of it as a series of small projects rather than one enormous project. And the day you finish it and get to take your creation into the sky, you will remember that for the rest of your life. It's probably hard to feel more accomplished.

I think my wife decribes it best;

"For a man to see the airplane he built fly for the first time has to be the closest thing to a man giving birth".

I laughed when she first told me that. But after watching a few buddies since fly their airplanes for the first time, I think she hit the nail on the head....

[DanB]

"For a man to see the airplane he built fly for the first time has to be the closest thing to a man giving birth".

I laughed when she first told me that. But after watching a few buddies since fly their airplanes for the first time, I think she hit the nail on the head....

AV8r,
That's funny you mention that...I just made a Face Book post indicating my first oil change and fuel filter change. Said I knew it was an infant plane cuz when I changed the filters, it peed on me. :)
Dan

[Pilot4Life]

See....now this type of thread is why most of us joined this forum....great information/insight, readable comradery (sp?), and a touch of humor! Great posting "av8rps"...keep it up folks....lovin' it!

[Flienlow]

Well I finally got to sit in one tonight!! Here it is (now a tricycle gear)
http://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/images/Web%20Gallery/KAphotogallery%20(48).html
(Thank you Greg for showing me your plane!!!)

I found it to be very comfy with the exception of my shoulder up against the door frame. The Wings are far wider than I thought they would be, the tail is far higher and the elevator sits higher than I thought too. I'm a little nervous this wont fit in my garage for building.

[inzersv]

Well Flienlow, I was also excited about the take it home idea until I measured my garage. 18 feet deep. Now I am looking for a new home. :rolleyes::p

[Dorsal]

Well I finally got to sit in one tonight!! Here it is (now a tricycle gear)
http://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/images/Web%20Gallery/KAphotogallery%20(48).html
(Thank you Greg for showing me your plane!!!)

I found it to be very comfy with the exception of my shoulder up against the door frame. The Wings are far wider than I thought they would be, the tail is far higher and the elevator sits higher than I thought too. I'm a little nervous this wont fit in my garage for building.

This will not be an issue during the build, the wings and the fuselage are built separately. For me even after I put the landing gear on (which is quite late in the build) I only needed to put the nose wheel on a 6" block to keep the tail low enough in my shop. Glad you got to check out a plane, I found the Kitfox very fun to build an even more fun to fly :D

[Flienlow]

Flying in one will be my next horizon. I still have other planes to check out, and it would appear there are still a few more beer bottles to throw back and forth with the war department (a trip to Disneyland buys alot at these days though.) It seems there is just so much to choose from these day. I was amazed to see a kitfox video where a guy has a 2-cylinder engine that is getting floats off the water. This is a cool plane!