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Av8r3400
03-08-2012, 07:43 AM
Here's the official press release.

Esser
03-08-2012, 07:55 AM
Exciting. Too bad that they are keeping it at 100hp. With FI you think they could haev squeezed out some more HP

Dorsal
03-08-2012, 07:56 AM
cool, a couple years late for me but who knows :rolleyes:

Esser
03-08-2012, 08:01 AM
Since it is computer controlled injection I give it 6 months before someone reprograms it to make more power. Also I wonder if you can still do the 914 conversion to it. And the price....

Av8r3400
03-08-2012, 08:13 AM
Esser - The 914 is actually a turbo UL (80 hp) motor.

I would imagine the limit to 100 hp was for longevity and liability. I would think that an injected 914 and 912UL will not be far behind.

Steve Henry (dead stick takeoff guy) has a new Highlander with a heavily modified, injected, turbo, 912S. Supposedly making over 130 hp. We'll have to watch and see how that thing lasts for him.

(The candle that burns twice as bright...)

Monocock
03-08-2012, 01:16 PM
Does anybody know if it would fit the same engine mount as I have for my 912ULS?

mr bill
03-08-2012, 02:32 PM
Can the system be retrofitted to existing 912ULS engines and if so what will be the cost.

DBVZ
03-08-2012, 02:47 PM
I would expect a retro to an older model would be very difficult. Like the whole top end, even assuming they used the identical block. Here is an interesting excerpt:

"The development of a 4-stroke, 4-cylinder 100 hp aircraft engine with a redundant electronic fuel injection system is a first in the industry; it makes it ideal for all kinds of light sport aircraft, generating increased opportunities in general aviation market," said Gerd Ohrnberger, vice-president and general manager, Powertrain division.

After testing the new Rotax 912 iS engine, Tine Tomazic, engineer and pilot for Pipistrel Aircraft, said: "The injection system ensures the best fuel and air mixture on each cylinder at every possible altitude while delivering the same 100 hp as the Rotax 912 ULS engine, therefore producing fewer emissions. Based on these facts, I would say that the Rotax 912iS engine is a powerful, economic and more fuel-efficient engine."

szicree
03-08-2012, 03:42 PM
I must be missing something. Why would the top end need to be swapped?

Esser
03-08-2012, 03:46 PM
Well maybe not swapped but probably. You would have to drill holes into your cylinder at precise angles for your injectors to go into. Probably easier to swap out your top end.

Jetdoc737
03-08-2012, 03:48 PM
I must be missing something. Why would the top end need to be swapped?

At first glance,as per the video, it looks like the dual injectors in each cylinder would make this necessary.

wannafly
03-08-2012, 04:09 PM
Talked to my dealer and they have one in an europa for testing. It uses the same ring mount and is the same size over all. Is about 10-12 pounds heavier. In their testing all is going good. No suprises and noticably smoother running. He thought the price about 25% more than a new 912s. Same radiator, and exhaust. He thought about 3-4 months before shipments would get to him. He had fielded close to 20 calls today about the engine so looks like lots of interest.

szicree
03-08-2012, 05:02 PM
At first glance,as per the video, it looks like the dual injectors in each cylinder would make this necessary.

The pics I saw looked like the injectors were part of the manifold. With such short intake runs I can't see why they would do it any other way.

TGio
03-08-2012, 08:04 PM
IMO from a marketing point of view, I don't think Rotax would make it easy to "up grade" older 912s. But on the other hand, used market 912s should be on the up swing http://www.teamkitfox.com/Forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

Av8r3400
03-08-2012, 08:18 PM
There's been talk around the campfire with the Rotax people I know of implementing an "exchange" program once your motor reaches TBO or is in need of overhaul. This way you get the new cases and reciprocating assembly for the updated TBO. Then you put your own carbs and ignition and exhaust, etc on the new "long block".

Haven't heard much but campfire talk on this, but the people doing the talking are on the inside...

jdmcbean
03-09-2012, 09:30 AM
Does anybody know if it would fit the same engine mount as I have for my 912ULS?

OK guys.. As many of you know we are a OEM for Rotax.. we are on the inside.. and Rotax kept the iS thing pretty quiet.. As far as pricing on the iS.. we haven't received any info on the pricing yet.. just speculation from Rotax.

Will it fit on the existing 4, 5, 6 or 7SS mounts.. We do not know but will certainly find out. We suspect that the 7SS mounts will not be an issue.. the 4, 5 and 6 mounts may not work.. unless it is the 5 or 6 round cowling.

inzersv
03-09-2012, 10:57 AM
John, keep us apprised of any developments on the iS. Since I haven't ordered my 912 yet, I may be interested in installing the iS. Depending on the price of course. Isn't aviation exciting?!

chefwarthog
03-10-2012, 06:33 PM
At last I think Rotax make a move it the 21 century, now if the pice could be like the 20 century, it be more interesting... won't it be nice!:rolleyes:

chefwarthog
03-11-2012, 08:48 AM
I juste fond these interesting videos.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3Q5SWEU16c&feature=g-all-u&context=G2aa8ed7FAAAAAAAAEAA

and this one too!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azXdDXWpZ_I&context=C4d4884bADvjVQa1PpcFOdtBf8aN6kRCYYUbIwpQxG tnH9GyvnJCg=

Have a nice familial sunday to all!

Eric

Av8r3400
03-11-2012, 01:37 PM
Good find on the videos, Eric. Thanks.

wannafly
03-11-2012, 02:27 PM
thanks for the videos Eric.It looks like the ECU and the Fuel system is on the pilot side of the fire wall. Will there be enough room for all of that in a Kitfox IV?

I want one:D;)...any one up for a 912S, less than 200 hours, runs perfect

Av8r3400
03-11-2012, 03:00 PM
The IV cannot use the Rotax "ring" style engine mount because the oil tank is in the way. (mounted high and behind the motor)

Now if John can work up a ring style mount for the IV then this and the 914 become possibilities in it.

Geowitz
03-11-2012, 05:17 PM
Really, not to rain on the parade, but come on... isn't it about time Rotax came around to the current century? Everyone's going crazy over this, but with the current price of the ULS I wouldn't be surprised if this thing costs near $30 grand. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have one, but this wasn't by any means a difficult task to complete and should have happened years ago. .

Av8r3400
03-11-2012, 06:17 PM
Thank the lawyers and liability issues. I know for fact from friends at BRP that they have been looking for injector suppliers for the past 5 years at least for this application.

akarmy
03-12-2012, 08:02 PM
I vote for innovation. This is very cool to see and I can't wait to get to fly in one in the future. Maybe not on my plane for a few years, but neat still.

jiott
03-13-2012, 11:35 AM
Wow, this catches me at a bad time. I am about ready to order my engine and FW kit for my SS7 and really am interested in the new 912is. But I don't want to delay my build while I wait for more info such as price, engine mounting and potential changes to the FW kit. It could be many months before Kitfox comes up with a new FW kit for this engine. I would hope John McBean will put all available resources to work immediately on getting this great new engine ready to sell and install, especially for us first time builders who don't want to have to pioneer a new installation and accessory package.

Jim

inzersv
03-13-2012, 11:41 AM
I agree with your sentiments Jim. I am very interested in this engine. Fortunately I may have some time before I order my engine since my kit is supposed to ship out this week.

jiott
03-13-2012, 03:34 PM
Fortunately you have at least 9 months or more to make the engine decision I am faced with right now.

Jim

jdmcbean
03-13-2012, 05:06 PM
Just a quick note: We are working on it..

This is not the same engine.. there are many changes.. not just the injection... Sensors are different, fuel system is very different, not only delivery. Electrical is different... Block and Camshaft are different.. this really a NEW engine..

We are filling potential orders for the engine currently. If you are seriously interested please contact us so we can include you on the list.

We do not have pricing or any other details currently and as soon as we do we will share the info..

Below is some of the FAQ's from a Rotax source...

Can I retro-fit the injection to the engine?NO, it is a new engine with new block, crankshaft, ignition to name a few parts. More than 60% of the parts in the iS have new part numbers or are newly created just for this engine.

Can I retro-fit this into my existing aircraft?Perhaps, but the recommended method is to have the OEM, (airframe producer) proof the first installation and make the recommendation. The fuel system and electrical system have significant differences.

When is it available?Some engines will be coming soon, currently the ones on hand are for OEM to do first installations and proof the airframe. Serial production starts in a few months.

Av8r3400
03-13-2012, 06:43 PM
Just think of all the used 912S and 912UL engines that soon hit the market from upgrades to the new motor...

Dave Holl
03-14-2012, 09:45 AM
:):)Don't hold your breath!!!:):)

Dorsal
03-14-2012, 11:44 AM
My short math says you will save around $14,000 in fuel cost over the life of the engine assuming the claimed 20% efficiency gain and 6 gph @ $6/gal. This also brought me to the stark realization that at my current rate of flying I will spend more on fuel in the next 15 years than I did building the plane. Of course it is likely to be shorter than that given the rising cost of gas (I did bias on high side but not by much). I suppose this shouldn't be surprising but I had never thought about it that way before, might make the new engine worth the switch someday :)

inzersv
03-14-2012, 12:08 PM
Dorsal, your observation is the first thing that I saw when I began reading about the 912iS. If it only sold for $4000 more than the 912S (?) I would probably recoup that in fairly short order. Expensive? Yes! Worth it? I think so. We will see. Gotta build it first. :D

jdmcbean
03-14-2012, 05:12 PM
Update: Got a little info today and hopefully more on the way.

Ordered and told the earliest we can have one is July.... so stay tuned.

Rotax 912iS
$24,917.70

True Apples to Apples comparison yielded a 16% increase. Of course that's not adding the monitor.

Plus.. new engine monitoring. You cannot use analog gauges. There is not a current glass panel that can be used.. I'm sure that will change. Talked with Rob at Advanced Flight Systems and they are looking at it with us.

The Engine Monitor from Rotax is $3893.50. That is the only option at this time.

Dorsal
03-14-2012, 06:31 PM
The Engine Monitor from Rotax is $3893.50. That is the only option at this time.

Ouch! :eek:

inzersv
03-14-2012, 06:44 PM
Wow, double ouch.

DesertFox6
03-14-2012, 09:25 PM
YIKES! Uhhh...how much izzat in Euros?

I'm beginning to believe Dorsal's intriguing math is exactly what some training-school proprietors may consider but I'm wondering what the experimental market size for this engine, when the inevitable production price-hikes begin, may actually be. With an engine that can be monitored only through the manufacturer's own Rosetta-Stone-Incompatible instrumentation package, I have to wonder what's next: Rotax-only mounting hardware? Made of Unobtainium??

Until some size of the "practical" ("N.S.") market for these hummers is available, it may not even be worth another company's efforts to develop a competitive monitor unless there's something adaptable right off the shelf...and then...my guess is...it still won't be able to "sprech Deutsch mit dem Motor!" :D

One of my IPs once advised me to "Never fly the "A" model of anything!" Naturally I wound up being assigned to fly the "A" model of EVERYTHING for the next 20 years, but his advice seems particularly sage right now. ;)

"E.T."
(Why does 3M's agribusiness philosophy keep coming to mind?)

Dorsal
03-15-2012, 03:13 AM
I am glad it is not a choice I have to make right now but I will remain optimistic that they chose an industry standard bus and protocol such that the local glass makers can adapt it to existing hardware.

Av8r3400
03-15-2012, 04:58 AM
I can't believe that every instrument manufacturer with the means wouldn't have one (at least) of these engines ordered to prototype/build an interface. Just as John at Kitfox is doing.

I will bet within 6 months from engine release there will be 10 or more aftermarket instrument packages available.

Bizkid
03-15-2012, 04:28 PM
Just a thought, lets say you are in the back country, and have forgotten to turn of you battery...
Will a fuel injected engine like the 912IS, be able to be hand propped.
I assume its a "no", due to the electrical fuel pumps.... but, i newer have had a clear answer to this quistion.

Regards

Bizkid :rolleyes:

Dorsal
03-15-2012, 04:42 PM
Didn't think you could hand prop a Rotax 9 series anyway?

Av8r3400
03-15-2012, 05:07 PM
You can't prop any 912 series motors. They need to have 200 crankshaft rpm for the ignitions to fire. This can't be done by hand.

If you want to prop, get yourself a Continental.

DBVZ
03-15-2012, 05:17 PM
You can't prop any 912 series motors. They need to have 200 crankshaft rpm for the ignitions to fire. This can't be done by hand.

If you want to prop, get yourself a Continental.My Jabiru is the same. I thought about mounting a second battery as a backup, with an interconnect to jump start myself. The new very light batteries make the weight and location of another battery less of an issue than it used to be. If you do a lot of back country flying, I would guess being sure your battery is good and turned off when parked, would be pretty important. But an alternate source of charging voltage may be good too.

Woodennickle
03-15-2012, 06:18 PM
Gee, Avi8tor, Bizkid was just asking a question he didn't know the answer to. For a Moderator, you often give some less than nice replies, or is it your dry sense of humor?

Bizkid
03-15-2012, 06:34 PM
:) Actually, a guy at the, http://www.rotax-owner.com forum, says it use to be possible to hand prop a 912, but ok, that was before the clutch was fitted, so now whit the clutch and fuel injection... hhmmm i gues the best solution is as DBVZ mention, a backup battery...

Ref: http://www.rotax-owner.com/forum/4-general-discussion/2315-hand-proping-the-912

Regards

Bizkid

Av8r3400
03-15-2012, 06:37 PM
Sorry, Nickle, it wasn't meant an offensive. I guess the statement doesn't read as I intended.

To DBVZ - I seem to remember seeing a small rechargeable jumper box (like the ones used for cars) that was intended for motorcycles. It was smaller and lighter and could be something along the line of your idea only portable.

I keep a tender on my plane in the winter and the lead for that is "hard wired" to the (very small) battery. Something like this could be a convenient "ground power" plug in an emergency...

DesertFox6
03-15-2012, 08:50 PM
I did that "leave the battery switch on" trick during a lunch stop once but without the usual "silent" after-effect and flew home, quite disgusted with my checklist discipline.

Back at the hangar, I wired an "electric blue" caution light (from NAPA Auto parts!) into the panel dead even with my eyeballs, so it glares into my face whenever the battery switch is "on" and I've never screwed that up again. (well, so far, anyway...) :rolleyes:

"E.T."

DBVZ
03-16-2012, 07:58 AM
My master (and other) switches have a lighted tip when on, so that helps to remind me. In my Piper we used to leave the Beacon on so if the master was left on you had an external reminder, and that worked to let people know it was about to start too. The problem, of course, with the lighted reminder is if you still miss it you will be running the battery down faster. I don't want to do that with the strobe though. No beacon now, just strobe and position lights.

darrell pralle
04-06-2012, 08:41 AM
I spoke with a dynon rep this morning, and he assured me they would have an ems and sensor package available for the 912 IS by late july. I have already purchased the firewall foward kit, and wondering if the kit is compatible with 912 IS?

AtlasEast
05-15-2012, 05:05 PM
I know Rotax has a good reputation for building good engines, but I would prefer to buy something else (those high RPMs really don't appeal to me). :confused:

I'm hoping ULPower proves to be just as reliable as the Rotax. At around 180 lbs wet for 130 ponies, being fuel injected and just a grand or so more than the 912, I would prefer to go with ULPower's 350iS.

But time will only tell about the reliability factor. Plus, they need to expand their dealer network.

DesertFox4
05-15-2012, 05:33 PM
I'm hoping ULPower proves to be just as reliable as the Rotax. At around 180 lbs wet for 130 ponies, being fuel injected and just a grand or so more than the 912, I would prefer to go with ULPower's 350iS.Enjoy your UL 350 - I'm hoping it works out for you. They are a good looking engine. Expensive though if it does not pan out.

You mention reliability in relation to Rotax. ULPower would have to sell 10,000 engines a year for 10 years to come close to the proven in-service hours Rotax has accumulated already. You're giving them an unattainable goal. The old argument about Rotax's high rpm's being a concern has long since been proven a non-factor.

Scott Griffin
06-16-2015, 12:24 PM
Anyone have any proven results with the 912is vs Uls? I think the mcbeans installed one but not sure what they thought about it performance/cost/efficiency wise. Thanks in advance.

Paul Z
06-16-2015, 01:08 PM
Last year while at Oshkosh I talked with John about the 912is versus the 914 Turbo. He seemed really like it. I asked which he preferred, the Turbo versus the injected, and he said the 912is. Give him a call he will give you his thoughts.

Danzer1
06-16-2015, 02:30 PM
You mention reliability in relation to Rotax. ULPower would have to sell 10,000 engines a year for 10 years to come close to the proven in-service hours Rotax has accumulated already.

Tell that to all the 912 flyers who are grounded right now waiting for the 6 month backlog of floats to clear up so they can fly again!


The old argument about Rotax's high rpm's being a concern has long since been proven a non-factor

It may be a "non-factor" but he said:
(those high RPMs really don't appeal to me)

As they don't appeal to many - like me - high revving, with another maintenance point, being gear driven. It's not an argument (unless you make it one), it's a preference - whats wrong with that?

Why would a manufacturer need to produce 100,000 engines to be deemed as reliable? Yes Rotax has sold a bunch, but not all 100% reliable - they've had a few issues to. To be "as reliable" does not necessarily need to equal quantity sold or "in service hours" - which by the way - is a complete unknown.

I like pepperoni on my pizza too!:eek:

Scott Griffin
06-17-2015, 09:58 AM
Thanks Paul, I will give him a call. Big bores, uls, 912is, The UL engines, there's a lot to consider. Window shopping is the easy part.