ethanol

[billmellett]

I'm brand new to the rotax concept. The lycoming and continentals that can run on auto gas aren't supposed to be run on auto gas with ethanol. The rotax engines obviously are being run on ethanol spiked gas. Is there anything that you have to do to the gas so that it does not pick up extra moisture? (My understanding is that is the problem with the ethanol. Could be wrong on that.)

[jamesmil]

ethanol contaminated gas will not only pick up water but will also attack the rubber in fuel hoses, carb,s and some fuel filter element materal.
also older fiberglass fuel tanks are not compatable with ethanol extended gas. it will cause all kinds of problems if stored for periods as short as 30 days in your airplane. it will also soften the pro seal used to seal fuel tanks on rv,s. this will show up at the inboard rear corner of the tank because that is the lowest point if it,s a tail dragger. then the tank has to be removed and the soft proseal has to be dug out till you get back to good proseal. were talking about 6 to 8 hores of work plus damaged paint around the screw heads.:mad: i put 10 gal. in my left tank on my rv7 once in a pinch to get to an airport along my route on a trip. topped off both tanks, when i got back home i was at about half tanks. did not fly again for about 30 days. not long after that is when the problems started. ethanol is junk!

[Esser]

Bill talk to Dave F he has been running ethanol in his Kitfox for a while now. I think the secret it drain your carbs when you are done flying.

[Woodennickle]

You can check for stations that have ethanol free gas at: pure-gas.org

[Dave S]

Oh Boy!

Talking ethanol again is not all that likely to result in complete agreement on the issue.

There is some information out there that can help a bit.

Rotax, as the engine manufacturer, explains that the engines can run up to 10% ethanol. They do not recommend any higher formulation of ethanol than 10%. I am pretty sure that if the manufacturer thought there was any issue with ethanol in their engines - you'd see a different recommendation. If rotax says 10% ethanol is OK in their engines. I can accept that as factual.

Aside from the engine - there is the rest of the fuel system - meaning the hoses filters and the fiberglass fuel tanks. The thing that does not seem to be ethanol proof in some cases is the fiberglass fuel tanks or linings that may be used in the tanks.

I have a friend with a Skyranger where he has a 912ULS, SAE hoses and a poly rather than fiberglass fuel tank. He runs only 91 auto with 10% ethanol - never a glitch.

On the issue of compatibility of the hoses with ethanol - that again is pretty much a matter of the hose manufacturer's specifications. Certainly SAE hose is designed to handle ethanol. Since I took a while to build our plane - I also took the time to cut off 1" sample pieces of milspec, SAE standard and SAE FI hose and let them steep in AVGAS, corn free MOGAS 91octane and 10% corn gas 91 octane - for a year in sealed bottles - know what? - none of the hoses swelled. My explanation is that when hoses do swell up or swell shut it has to do with either: 1) contaminants in the fuel (which is more common in autogas of any formulation because of how it is handled); or, out of specification materials used in the hose (i.e. cheap stuff of dubious quality).

So what do I run in mine? 91 octane corn free autogas; or, 100 LL when I can't get the 91 non ethanol auto fuel.

Ethanol has approximately 60% of the energy gasoline - meaning that ethanol reduces your range. That's simply a matter of chemistry. With 10% ethanol - the effect is rather minor but it still will reduce your range by approximately 0.4% compared to corn free gas.

One thing that I find irritating :mad: about the issue is the insistence on the part of the ethanol industry of referring to ethanol laced fuel as "Oxygenated" - it is true that there is chemically combined oxygen in ethanol while there isn't in gasoline - but this claim is purely marketing hype attempting to paint an environmentally friendly face on the product because it has "oxygen" in it:rolleyes: - the practical way of looking at this is the fact that since ethanol contains chemically combined oxygen - it reduces the amount of carbon and hydrogen available for combustion - i.e. - worse fuel economy per gallon......:(

Personally I stay away from the 10% corn gas since my fuel tanks are not of the latest design.

Sincerely,

Dave S

[billmellett]

Wow! Great information. Thanks everyone.

This map is really interesting. I can fly from the D/FW metroplex to Laredo, TX and never cross anywhere with ethanol-free mogas without going way out of the way. That's a bummer.

http://pure-gas.org/extensions/map.html

[Paul Z]

Get the Alcohol Out Read my post about the issues I had with Alcohol in the fuel! Not worth the savings, or not worth the EXPENSE!!!!!!! I got to spend a lot of time and dollars rebuilding Carbs and flushing tanks because it stripped epoxy out of the tanks and through the Carbs!

[DBVZ]

A related issue is that some have reported that stations reporting ethanol-free gas may sometimes have ethanol anyway. Not supposed to happen, but delivery trucks show up and drop fuel, and the station operator may not even know. Or may know and not care. And testing a sample each purchase is kind of a pain. You have to have the right stuff to do the test, and take the time to do it.

[Av8r3400]

Bill talk to Dave F he has been running ethanol in his Kitfox for a while now. I think the secret it drain your carbs when you are done flying.

Ethanol is a bad idea on so many different levels, I don't think you'll get any argument about this.

In the case of Dave, I have wondered aloud several times if the blend of ethanol and other garbage additives is different in Canada than here in the US, which could explain Dave's lack of problems.

Maybe, it's not just the ethanol, but a combination of ethanol and some of the other EPA mandated additive(s) which are responsible for the damage we have seen in the fiberglass tanks.

[Esser]

The whole ethanol thing in Canada is a joke. It is yet another follow what the US is doing feel good factor. From the best of my knowledge the US implemented the ethanol garbage to start relying less on foreign oil reserves. Now Canada has the second largest oil deposits in the world after Saudi Arabia. So why did Canada implement the same policy? I have no idea. Especially since it has been proven over and over again that corn based ethanol is more damaging to the environment. So really it is just a big pain in the butt for us that does nothing for the environment. Now apparently the only gas in Ontario that is ethanol free is Shell V-Power. But Dave tested it in one of his videos and it had ethanol in it. I'm afraid the government once again played the stupidity card.

As for testing for ethanol it is not that hard, all you need is a test tube with two lines on it. fill the tube up with water to the bottom line, then fill up with fuel to the higher line. Shake it all up and look. If the water is still at the bottom line you have no ethanol. If it looks like some how there is less water in the tube then you do have ethanol. It is a pain but it only takes a minute.

[Av8r_Sed]

If there is Ethanol, it would appear that there is more water than when you started.

I use the often suggested olive jar (tall and narrow) with one line marked on it about 20% up from the bottom. I carry it with me to the gas station prefilled with water to the line. simple enough to fill close to the top, cap and shake. Later i seperate out the water with a Mr Funnel and use the gas for my lawnmower.

-- Paul S

[DBVZ]

[quote=Av8r_Sed;20973]If there is Ethanol, it would appear that there is more water than when you started.

So is it more, or less? I thought the effect was that the water was picked up by the ethanol, which is mixed with the gas. So some water is reduced in the test sample. Kind of like the old trick of using a quart of straight alcohol to "de-water" bad gas in a car. The water is still in the tank, but picked up by the alcohol it goes through the car engine ok.

Do I have this all wrong, or what?

It is still a pain. You go to an "ethanol free" station, buy a pint of gas to run the test, when the test is done you can (or not) continue to fill your cans. Either way you have a pint of watered gas to dispose of or run through some engine.

[Av8r3400]

The water in the tester will absorb the ethanol from the gas and fall out of suspension, therefore making the level of "water" in the bottom increase.

There are some people out there who are actually "washing" the ethanol out of contaminated gas using this principal. Maybe this would work for a lawnmower, but personally, I'd never use it in an airplane.

[DBVZ]

Ok. Got it. Makes sense now. Thanks.

[P Morel]

So is it more, or less? I thought the effect was that the water was picked up by the ethanol, which is mixed with the gas.

Here's an excellent link that explains how to test the fuel for ethanol and what to look for.

The "tester" image shows the water at the 0 (zero) mark
The "test result" image shows an increase of the water line and about 5% ethanol.

I use this system every time I purchase fuel for the aircraft ... It's getting harder to find ethanol free fuel in my area. Just went back yesterday to buy fuel and found they switched over to 10% ethanol. :mad:

http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/ethanolTest.html

[Dave F]

Ethanol - everyone has their own opinion.

mine is based on using it for over 1500 hours of flight time in my 582 Kitfox alone.

I have since last summer switched to premium only for getting more power. Cost is the same as with premium the extra cost makes up for the power gain that you get .... really not a gain but you just do not get the power loss thats you get from ethanol gas.

Video here shows http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ikyc0xOAjbw

Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnQLfJrFc_c

really goes to show how most of the owlrd is so immune to reality.

To each their own but I am still waiting to see all these damaged fuel tanks lines etc...... I have 9 rotax power planes at my strip and all use auto gas .... most regualr and a few PRemium........ no troubles

None of these use those stupid , dangerous paper fuel filters either.

Who you gonna listen to ?

I often fly over 40 miles of open water -- usually with in gliding distance of shore on wheels or floats. fingers crossed.

others sit with legs crossed in the captains seat at their PC .


go figure


Happy New Years all

[DesertFox4]

To each their own but I am still waiting to see all these damaged fuel tanks lines etc......Dave , you weren't here when my only fill up of alcohol laced auto fuel started to dissolve the fiberglass resins in my fuel tanks after sitting only two days, then killed my engine not 15 feet from the hangar after start up. If you were you could have helped me clean out my resign fogged carbs. for 3 hours each. I could have used your help draining the brown gas from my tanks and then sloshing them with pure unadulterated Av-gas to reset the resigns again. Thank God it worked so you and I didn't have to cut my tanks out of my wings and replace them.
I'm betting you would have come to the same conclusion as I, that it might not be a good idea to run locally available alcohol auto fuel through my particular fuel tanks.



Who you gonna listen to ? We listen to anyone who wants to share their experiences here as long as they do it in a polite manner not a condescending, arrogant manner. We may not agree with them, we may find we have different experience and even politely argue our position. Even if they don't have 50 YouTube videos.



others sit with legs crossed in the captains seat at their PC . no comment I could make about this statement wouldn't get me in trouble with the moderators.

[Dave F]

Dave , you weren't here when my only fill up of alcohol laced auto fuel started to dissolve the fiberglass resins in my fuel tanks after sitting only two days, then killed my engine not 15 feet from the hangar after start up. If you were you could have helped me clean out my resign fogged carbs. for 3 hours each. I could have used your help draining the brown gas from my tanks and then sloshing them with pure unadulterated Av-gas to reset the resigns again. Thank God it worked so you and I didn't have to cut my tanks out of my wings and replace them.
I'm betting you would have come to the same conclusion as I, that it might not be a good idea to run locally available alcohol auto fuel through my particular fuel tanks.


We listen to anyone who wants to share their experiences here as long as they do it in a polite manner not a condescending, arrogant manner. We may not agree with them, we may find we have different experience and even politely argue our position. Even if they don't have 50 YouTube videos.


no comment I could make about this statement wouldn't get me in trouble with the moderators.


Steve -- well let see your picture of your damged tanks ?

5000 Kitfox most with a good percentage using glass tanks and you would think that you would see hundreds of tanks falling apart.

Now - mine are around 1991 92 vintage ...... maybe mine are more resistant and maybe not....... time will tell.
How many gallons have your tanks seen ? Moine have see over 7500 US gallons....... thats a Fact - Steve how many have yours seen ?
Did you slosh your s ? Mine are not sloshed.

We gotta compare apples ot apples here/

Any I have I think well over 200 Videos on you tube under Kitfoxflyer username. I am a adsense partner since it came out about 10 years ago and get paid and have a blast posting factual hands on experience from my captains chair.

I don't hide behind a "username" - I post as it is.......

Cheers.

[DesertFox4]

Dave, be nice to me and others. When you get some more hours on your Kitfox then I'll respond to you. You have a ways to go.

[Woodennickle]

:rolleyes: My friend has an Avid with a 582 that ethanol ate the tanks and fuel lines out of. You talk about a mess. It took him all kinds of hours to clean carb and he is still working at replacing tanks. I guess if you need more proof, you could always move to Missouri.:D

[Dave F]

Dave, be nice to me and others. When you get some more hours on your Kitfox then I'll respond to you. You have a ways to go.


Steve, I got over 1500 hours on ethanol gas alone --

What is yout point -- you got 2 days of ethanol use and your tanks magically cured them selves with avgas?

this one will go into the history books........

Facts are facts.

Dave

[Av8r3400]

Again, I wonder aloud: Is the Canadian ethanol additive package different from what is added to fuel here in the US. Here, even different local governments can specify different additives be added to the fuel sold.

Some of this crap put in autogas is nasty, nasty stuff.

I have seen, with my own eyes, fiberglass boat fuel tanks that have been damaged (softened and leaking) by fuel purchased in the Milwaukee area.

I love the idea of the roto-molded polyethylene tanks. It's a shame they aren't made in the 12-14 gallon size, not needing the connecting hoses and multiple connections the little ones do.

[DanB]

Steve, I got over 1500 hours on ethanol gas alone --

What is yout point -- you got 2 days of ethanol use and your tanks magically cured them selves with avgas?

this one will go into the history books........

Facts are facts.

Dave

Dave, I just have to say...REALLY? No one cares how many hours you have on your plane or how popular your You Tube videos are. When someone walks into YOUR house and starts acting like an ass would you give them any warning at all or just kick them out the front door?
You have been warned to tone it down, you might want to re-visit the rules to OUR house on how to conduct yourself here. I'm sure you have a wealth of experience and can be a valued asset to our community. Just go look up the word humility NUF SAID

[Paul Z]

I have a real nice video of me and the wife sloshing the tanks after using Unleaded Auto Fuel. I also have a couple of real nice photo's that shows the damage the alcohol did to the sight gauges on the main tanks.

I wish people would listen. I had so much gunk (AKA Epoxy) in my carbs, the were stuck open on a landing. I tried throttling back to land but I couldn't get the RPMs to cut back, and I got to do a landing at about 80 to 85 MPH.

It is all up to you, if you want epoxy inside your Carbs, have at it! I have proof, the repair bill from the Rotax dealer in Florida to rebuild and clean my Carbs. The A&P bill to work with me and remove, replace, and rebalance the Carbs.

I forgot to Mention the 5 days I got to sit around in Wyers Cave Virginia waiting for my carbs to come back from Florida, waiting for the Carbs to be rebuilt!

It is your life, and you plane. My two cents. If you use Auto Fuel with Alcohol, if you are lucky, get ready to have an exciting landing! If you are not lucky get ready to have a really bad accident, or worse!

[P Morel]

Maybe this has been thrown out there before, but I wonder if there would be any difference to the ethanol debate regarding 2 cycle (with oil mixture) and 4 cycle (no oil mixture) engines?

[Woodennickle]

I believe this site was put here to allow members to share information and help each other. If there is something that can cause you problems and possibly a lot of money I feel that we are doing a service to out fellow members to make them aware of potential problems. For us to dismiss something just because it hasn't happened to us doesn't advance the purpose of this site.:o

[Jfquebec]

For me ,it's clear ,,,i dont put ethanol in my tank......


Jf

P.s please dont put all Canadian in same basket:o

[DesertFox4]

What is yout point -- you got 2 days of ethanol use and your tanks magically cured them selves with avgas?
this one will go into the history books........ Dave F- just in case you didn't see the latest service bulletin from Kitfox Aircraft, the real experts on everything Kitfox.
http://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/support/service_bulletins/sb60.pdf

I was there when this procedure was developed last year although I used basically the same procedure 8 years ago but with out the acetone. It did restore the inside of the fuel tanks back to normal. 850 hours later, no issues but never will auto-gas ever grace my fuel tanks again. BTW, my tanks are the same vintage as yours Dave, 1992 approx.
and were not factory sloshed.

I'm glad you are not going through what so many like me have. I don't wish that on you or anyone else. A pain in the rear. Hope you continue to have no problem but just because you haven't doesn't mean it isn't happening. Like some have eluded to , it may be the additives and not the ethanol itself doing the damage. We have a run-a-way EPA here in the States and hopefully soon they will be reigned in some or done away with altogether.
Be safe.

[Dave F]

Like some have eluded to , it may be the additives and not the ethanol itself doing the damage. We have a run-a-way EPA here in the States and hopefully soon they will be reigned in some or done away with altogether.

Steve exactly! Everyone blames ethanol gas but yet no one really has any idea what is in the gas.- My self included.

I really like the idea of the crossed link polyethylene tanks like at Wingtanks. This material is widely used for fuel from gas cans to chains saws to boats.

All I know is I use what ever gas I can. My choice is premium and not for the octane as only the 912s has high enought compression to need this octane. But it is ethanol free or very reduced and has proven to give more power as ethanol and /or additives cost you power.

It is not rocket science.


Cheers,
Dave