Younger builders

[Chewie]

Hello,
First time post (I think) with a question that has been bogging me down for a while. Are there any guys here 35 or younger who are actively building a Kitfox? And I don't mean just helping your dad... If so, I'd love to hear your stories about how you got into it, how you learned the skills, and especially how you managed to finance it. I wish I could just change my passion and do something more 'reasonable' but it won't let me go!

Mark

PS - Apologies if this topic has already been posted.

[Dorsal]

You talking physical age or maturity level, if it is the latter then I still qualify:D

[896tr]

Chewie, in 2000 I told my wife that we needed to build a Kitfox series 6,the plane that would do everything we wanted a plane to do. Her response was "if you can finance it go for it". She swears she will never say that again. When I asked John Mcbean if he had a financing plan he gave me the name of a bank that would do it. Start with John or Debra, they will not steer you wrong. The build manual is pretty thorough but if you do get stuck this forum is a very good place to get answers. As far as getting the skills it's kind of like making out with your first girlfriend:eek:, you will learn as you go, and practice is really fun:D! I say go for it!

[t j]

I started taking flying lessons in 1984. My instructor was 26 and I was 35. He had restored a couple different airplanes and was building a Baby Lakes and owned a Citabria at that time. He showed me an information packet of a new kit plane on the market called a Kitfox. He said it looked like something he wanted to build.

I contacted Denny Aircraft and subscribed to a news letter he published. The stories in there of people building and flying the kitfox got me hooked. Ten years later...1994...I saw an article in a flying magazine about a new Kitfox model called the XL. A complete kit was priced at $14,995. Everything, engine, insturments, the whole 9 yards. That was something I could afford at that time.

I jumped in my Cherokee and flew over Idaho to take a demo flight. I flew with Patric Rediker in that dayglo Speedster. But come to find out for some reason they quit making the XL and brought back the model IV now called a Classic IV. They would sell it for that same price as the XL but I had to take a 503 engine. No engine upgrades allowed.

So, I wasn't 35 when I started building but I was when I got hooked on a Kitfox. Oh, and the 503 works just fine and is still going strong.

[rogerh12]

MARK;

If you don’t have to have the latest and greatest Kitfox model 7, older ½ built kits can be found at discount prices. A model 2 kit just sold for $2500, though it was missing some parts. My advise to you is simple, have cash in hand so you can close those good deals fast (cash talks), as they won’t last long, and don’t be afraid to make a “best offer” on more expensive planes, even if it’s a low offer as you might get a call back a few months later from a seller tired of being jerked around by non-serious buyers. Tell them, "I have the money right now"

The next step; well just put the word out that you looking for a kit, post some ads on the internet and at local airports and of course check the ads everywhere you can, on a regular basis. The best deals though are word of mouth, so keep talking about it and join a EAA chapter, they can help with this search too.

Don't be in a hurry though, and track kit prices and flying planes, so you will know a good deal when you see one, and you WILL see one, probably lots of them as over 4000 kitfox's have been sold. Also, look for old ones needing recovering at bargin prices, my fellow I know got a model 2 for just $5000, the fabric was toast, but it was still flyable !!!!

I have bought 4 or 5 kits over the years, and I got my current model 4 from a widow for just 5K (unstarted, they had a lot of planes if you know what I mean), and that included the Rotax firewall forward install kit, which I sold off for $2,700. Though this kit lacked any landing gear, windows or fabric, it did have a factory pre-gig wing and it was powder coated, so my final cost was $2,300 for about $15K worth of airplane.

Good luck !

[nichzimmerman]

Mark,
It sounds like you're in about the same boat as me, so I'll chime in. I am 24 yrs old, have a wife and baby, and have a very small aviation budget. I am VERY fortunate to have a dad who financed my CFI rating and also my Kitfox 2 which I keep in my garage and tow with a towbar. At the risk of being shunned, I will confess that my dream airplane is actually a Bearhawk because it can haul a family and baggage, and I can SCRATCH BUILD, which means I can spend a couple hundred bucks on enough aluminum to keep me busy for 6 months, and that leaves me just enough money to top off the gas tank in the Kitfox. When the Bearhawk nears completion (in about 5 years) I hope to sell the kitfox to pay for some used avionics and FWF. So that is my method of keeping me in the cockpit until my dream plane takes form.

I'm not aware of any scratch built airplanes that are as fun as the kitfox, but there's something to be said for their affordability over their kit-built brethern.

Oh, and I am also VERY fortunate to have a wife who not only tolerates my madness, but has actually deburred more aluminum parts than I have!

Nick

[Geowitz]

31 years old here(actually bought the kit when I was 29... sorry :D, just bragging now). Got a Kitfox IV(used, barely started kit) about a year and a half ago and am on schedule to have it flying this coming spring/summer. Everything has been done in my regular 2 car garage. Covering, paint... everything, which has kept the cost probably cheaper than most. See my profile for picture albums. I've been building model planes for pretty much all of my life. Also worked on many projects throughout my life in construction, auto mechanics, heavy machinery, etc. I would definitely call myself a jack of all trades, but master of none. I'll be the first to admit I'm not the best at anything, but I can certainly get it all done with relatively good results. I just like building things. A kitfox is relatively easy to build and most end up being great flyers. I think the main difference between the show winners and the beaters is just patience and attention to detail. Sounds cliche, I know, but it's the truth. Taking your time aligning things, measuring twice(10 to 20 times in some instances), and just double checking everything is really the hardest part, but it does make all the difference. You really can learn the skills as you go. Be ready to reject some your own work though. Have others look at your work too. If you finish something and it nags at you that it's not satisfactory. Redo it and chock it up to a learning experience. Sometimes I would totally destroy a somewhat OK(but structurally important) assembly just to make sure I redid it better(Maybe I have a little O.C.D. - I think that may be a requirement for building a plane actually, lol). After getting as far as I have now I know I could build another Kitfox twice as good in half the time though.

As far as financing, well I guess everyone's different, but in addition to savings I took out a little on my home equity line of credit, but promised myself I'd pay it back in a definite expedited time frame and I stuck to it. I wanted to make sure the plane was payed for before the first flight and it is. I agree with John - Savings is where it's at, but for me I just had to borrow a little extra and it wasn't a stretch by any means to hammer away at the principle with extra payments each month. I also don't have any car payments, credit card balances, student loans, etc either. I've always been very aware of my finances. All I have is the mortgage(15 year as well John :D, sorry...bragging again). I'm prepared to sacrifice some things like having a newer truck and I make sure all the bills are taken care of first. Do everything to maximize your financial success. It will cost more than you originally thought. This is definitely not a great time economically, so the obvious warnings apply - don't stretch yourself thin and don't EVER forget that financial issues may require you to sell it. This is after all, a hobby and not a necessity. Having a suitable permanent work area devoted to the plane is essential also. Not sure if you rent or own your home, but stability is a must. There do seem to be a lot of good deals on Barnstormers lately for kits. Keep saving and keep an eye out, but please make sure my property values don't go down because you got too deep into a plane and got foreclosed on. Sorry, but not enough people say that. Sure, there are exceptions to every rule, but generally, building a plane isn't cheap and it can get you into trouble.

Another thing I wanted to make sure that didn't happen to me was for it never to get done. So many people buy a kit and never finish it. You HAVE to motivate yourself to do something at least every couple of days. Even if it's a little sanding here or there, making a template or a bracket, or even cleaning your work area. It all adds up and helps to keep you motivated. You will burn out at some or several points. The next task may seem so tedious that you can't even walk into the work area, but I promise once you get moving and get done with each part you'll be saying to yourself, "that wasn't so hard!". I luckily have a wife who was in nursing school for most of my main build time up till now so she had to do a lot of studying which freed me up quite a bit. She's also very patient with my need to build and is excited about one day getting to fly in it.

Overall, make sure you like to build. The desire to do something doesn't mean your qualified to do it, but it is a great first step.

[Chewie]

Thank you all SO MUCH for your feedback, regardless of age. I can imagine the costs add up and I appreciate your honesty. The build would be a challenge too and some of you had excellent ideas on how to make it manageable and to stay motivated. Just a few comments below...


You talking physical age or maturity level, if it is the latter then I still qualify:D
- I'm flattered! :)


...As far as getting the skills it's kind of like making out with your first girlfriend:eek:

- What if she wasn't my girlfriend?! ;)



Breaking it down into manageable investments is something I hear a lot and makes sense given the current economic picture.



... Join a local chapter off EAA. Get involved.
Take some industrial arts classes at the local junior college.
Enroll in EAA SportAir workshops when they come to a town near you.


John - I will definitely look for EAA chapters around here; I do have a membership. I also sent in an application last week to volunteer at the antique aeroplane and auto museum here in town and will hopefully rub shoulders with a few restoration experts. Hopefully that will pan out!


[pretty much everything you said!]
"Geowitz", great stuff. Thanks for sharing all that. My wife and I live pretty simply and don't even have a TV - we prefer spending our time and money on fewer things that matter more. We don't want to fill our lives with junk.

For me, to build and fly my own airplane would be so much more than the material value. It would be one of the larger milestones in my life aside from getting married, and if I do something this big I want it to last a while. That's another reason I want to start early, when I still have my health and the future is still AHEAD of us and not BEHIND us. Hard to explain in few words. I'm that guy who has the potential and background to get hands on with a project like this, but just never got the experience. I fly a foot-launched powered paraglider to get my air fix but I can't share that experience with anyone, and that frustrates me. I've seen these youtube videos of guys taking their 10-yr old daughters for their first ride in a kitfox and that makes my eyes tear up every time.

Thanks all again for your comments. In the mean time I'll keep poking around and learn all I can.

Mark

[Esser]

Hello Mark, I am 24 and just ordered a kit. I actually jsut called up John and Debra to delay the delivery due to some stuff that's popping up with work. So I guess I am not actively building yet but should be soon. I got my license through Air Cadets for free when I was 17 so I never had to pay for that. I am very lucky that I amable to finance it as I have a very good job, I hold no debt with the exception being my mortgage, and I had a decent chunk saved up. My property that I own has a large shop so I don't have to worry about renting additional space to worry about that cost. Since buying the kit will take most of my savings I am waiting to buy the engine and avionics until I am at that stage so I can save my pennies a bit. My plan is to stay ahead of the game with the money and if I run out I have an empty line of credit that I can purchase some items on. But my wishful goal is to have everything paid for by the time its air worthy. I realize this isnt applicable to everyone but I say if you can figure out a way to scrape by and build it then do it. I talked myself over a period of a few months by telling myself that I am only young once. Don't forget when you are building to factor in the price of tools. If you are young like me your shop might not be complete. I hope you are able to do it.

Josh

[cap01]

good point josh , waiting on the avionics and engine . you dont need the clock ticking on the warantees while your stuff is waiting in the boxes to be installed . also , who knows , there may be a bunch of better stuff available by the time your ready to install it . good luck and have fun , it will be worth it when its completed .

[rogerh12]

You might wait on the landing gear order too. With it installed on my model-4, the tail would hit my garage celling (though it is a Tri-gear). I just made ups some short wood gear with heafty lawn mower wheels to move the fuse around during work, and it turned out to be a great idea. A space saver too as my wood gear was very narrow.

The spring gear is also expensive and maybe you could do the same, and put off buying the gear until later in the project?


Roger

[Dave S]

Mark,

I am not a younger builder; however, I WANTED to build back when I was 20, so I think I have a couple valid points that can help you along your way. Make your dream come true as soon as you can. When you are 150 years old on your deathbed I guarantee you will NEVER say "Gee I wish I hadn't built that plane and had all that fun".....guaranteed you will never say that.

Not everybody came from a family of aviators and builders - in my case, I am the first and only pilot and first and only builder in the family. First took flying lessons in college - got the bug to build at the same time. That was in the 1960's.......

I did get 20 hours in back when a Cessna 140 rented for $8 an hour and the instructor cost an additional $4 per hour. What stopped me from completing my certificate and from building at the time was money. (crap - I could have bought the 140 for $2000 at the time and it was barely 15 years old!) Aside from not coming from a family of aviators and builders, I didn't come from a family with much money either and had to pay my way 100% through college. Second issue with building was a place to build - didn't have one at the time that was guaranteed to stay available. Enough money became available for me to complete my pilot's certificate in 1990 and I started building our 'fox in 2005 in the garage and basement (yes, I measured the basement door first!) with a completion in 2008. Now we are flying and enjoying every minute of it even if I am about to retire early next year.

My lesson is you need to think about the two issues of cost and a place to build. You can mitigate cost in may ways and the 'fox is one of the best ways to do that to start with. Many folks on the list have suggested ways reduce the cost, you have a tremendous asset with your age - you have the luxury of time in your favor so it is entirely possible to fly soon by picking up a less expensive 'fox (kit sitting around or one of the early models completed but used) consider it your first plane and have lots of time till you become old enough to have enough money to jeopardize your children's inheritance by building the greatest 'fox ever.:)

Sincerely,

Dave S
KF7 Trigear
912ULS Warp

[Chewie]

Wow, this thread made it to 2 pages?! So many great responses... There's definitely a recurring theme here about starting with something that's not a factory fresh model 7 (or classic IV). I'm pretty thin but 6'2" and sat in a Model IV which felt a bit cramped. Maybe it was just his configuration. How do I know if I fit in some of the older models? And if buy a used kit and my portion is less than 51% of the completion (and therefore I don't have a repairman certificate), how much does that add to the cost of ownership?

Thanks so much for all your comments and stories. C5Engineer love the picture.

-Mark

[t j]

Chewie, there can be only one repairman certificate issed for the plane and many people confuse this rule to mean that person has to build 51%. There is no requirement for you to build 51% of the plane to get the repairman's certificate. You just have to be one of the builders of that plane.

As far as what would it cost if you don't get the repairman's certificate. The only thing you will have to pay for related to working on the plane is the annual condition inspection.

[Esser]

Roger, good idea about the gear. I already ordered it but the gear is the only thing that wont get through my doubel doors so it might be good to mock up some narrower gear for a temp solution til the end.

Mark, another way to save a few bucks is used/referbished equipment. Rotec(North American Rotax dealer) Sells factory rebuilt zero timed 912ULS for much cheaper than you can buy a brand new one. And it has all brand new specs to the engine. Check out barnstormers.com for used avionics and engines. A lot of people decide to upgrade there panels, engines, props etc. If you know the right questions to ask you can find good deals.

[av8rps]

Hello,
First time post (I think) with a question that has been bogging me down for a while. Are there any guys here 35 or younger who are actively building a Kitfox? And I don't mean just helping your dad... If so, I'd love to hear your stories about how you got into it, how you learned the skills, and especially how you managed to finance it. I wish I could just change my passion and do something more 'reasonable' but it won't let me go!

Mark

Hi Mark,

I started flying Avid Flyers and kitfoxes in 1987, and was 25 years old. I chose this design due to the inability at the time to afford "more conventional" aircraft. But now decades later, I can afford the other planes I could only dream about when I was in my 20's, but still prefer my Kitfox. It is just so much fun, and flies oh so well... the other aircraft by comparison handle like trucks. So if you have the time but not necessarily extra cash, stay with it. You will never regret building your Kitfox.

Paul S

[N276KM]

Though it's an older thread, I though I'd add my story. I started building my Avid Mk 4 in 2001 when I was 25. Nine years later I finished it and got FAA approval in Oct 2010. On the upside, I paid 2001 prices for most of the components including the engine. On the downside, I had three job changes, four moves, and two children interrupt the building process--but kept the same wonderful wife! There were some years that I did little or no work on the project.

As long as you can dedicate a certain minimum amount of time to the project, go ahead. You'll work out the money side of it. At 35 I'm happy to be flying my own plane and I get great satisfaction out of the accomplishment.

[HighWing]

Since the thread has been revived I thought I would make a comment even though an email my wife got this morning puts me well into geezer status - by the sender's definition. My story: Thinking I should increase my activity in EAA I decided to go to the November pancake breakfast. If I saw any hair at all, it was grey or white and I couldn't miss the guy with the walker helping behind the stove. My thoughts immediately went to the future of aviation especially our version. Then we went to the Christmas party which was much the same. I find this discussion heartening to say the least. Thank you all for telling your stories. Regrets? Only that I didn't start earlier.
Lowell

[N276KM]

Besides the incompatibility of drinking and flying, I don't see why aviation should have a following so less active and prolific than motorcycling. It has to be costs, but even then I've got friends my age who thought nothing of dropping $15k into a new Harley.

I think it's the perception of a highly regulated activity (true in some areas), and high startup costs with training running >$6000. I would love to have groups across the country who have weekend trips as often as motorcyclists, ATV'ers, or even dedicated bicyclists. Without these group activities it really is hard to sustain or grow the pilot population.

Yes, I know that there are fly ins and pancake breakfasts--maybe it's a difference in spontaneity that accounts for the perception?

[Av8r3400]

In regard to cost, I pointed out to my neighbor the other day, when he was saying how much money little planes like mine cost, I have less than half what he has in his new truck and bass boat, in my TWO airplanes.

It's all about perception.

[inzersv]

Chewie,
I mentioned in an earlier post that I had the chance to hitch a ride in the factory demo Model IV in 1984 or 85. I Have been hooked on the kitfox since. I also had the chance to purchase a kit for under $15K. I actually walked into my bank on three different occasions to get a loan for a kit. And I always talked myself out of it. Now I am ready to buy with cash in hand; HOWEVER, I am now 64 years old and have lost a lot of flying years. And, who knows what my final cost will be now? There has been alot of good advice on this thread. Look them over, pick out the ones that will work for you and jump in and get wet. Don't wait until you retire to do this. That is my only regret I have.


Good Luck and go make it happen. I think everyone on the forum will agree "you won't regret it".

[Pilot4Life]

Since the thread has been revived I thought I would make a comment even though an email my wife got this morning puts me well into geezer status - by the sender's definition. .
Lowell

Is that what a "Senior Member" means on this forum? LOL

This particular thread has reminded me why I began watching this site years ago! I too am young, 33 in January, and look forward to getting my first Fox! Well, airplane anyhow... Got my "FOX" in 2000 when I married! Now, 4 kids, a military career of 14 years and running, as well as other life events later, I still dream in Kitfox style! A big thanks to Pete Christensen for planting that "Kitfox Grin" on my face with his Model 3! All you "Old Fogies" and even us younger "Kids" can enjoy flying at a low operating cost thanks to wonderful folks like John and Deb McBeam! Keep pushing to get Airborne....

BTW...still love that S7 super Sport with the o-233 installed. Looks great!

MERRY CHRISTMAS to our Teamkitfox Family!!!!

Chris

[HighWing]

Chris,
Senior member? If fits me to a tee. I misplaced something in my hangar the other day and asked my wife to come out and help me find it. She usually sees what I am looking for straight away, but this time it took a neighbor, the Lancair guy. Now I can't even remember what I was looking for. Senior member, senior moment - all the same to me.
Lowell

[Pilot4Life]

Lowell,
Happens to all! How funny! I travel to the Sacramento area with my job on occasion. When I'm out there next time, perhaps I can meet up with you and gawk at your Kitfox? Take care...

Also, the Avid/Kitfox group in Central Texas would be a great addition to this family. Maybe the "Lonestar Squadron" would be a good name. I am sure a couple folks on right now would love to join up....keep us posted....

Chris

[Chewie]

Stan,
I'm also looking to hitch a ride... There's always tension between the need to be financially responsible and the NEED to not let life slip by, and I think you outlined my dilema pretty well. I'm laying out what my reality is right now and will go from there. I'm sure the answer will present itself to my question of how, not if, this project will happen.

-Mark


Chewie,
I mentioned in an earlier post that I had the chance to hitch a ride in the factory demo Model IV in 1984 or 85. I Have been hooked on the kitfox since. I also had the chance to purchase a kit for under $15K. I actually walked into my bank on three different occasions to get a loan for a kit. And I always talked myself out of it. Now I am ready to buy with cash in hand; HOWEVER, I am now 64 years old and have lost a lot of flying years. And, who knows what my final cost will be now? There has been alot of good advice on this thread. Look them over, pick out the ones that will work for you and jump in and get wet. Don't wait until you retire to do this. That is my only regret I have.


Good Luck and go make it happen. I think everyone on the forum will agree "you won't regret it".