Physical fit and true useful load question.

[BigAir]

Hi All,

I just joined the board today so my apologies if these questions have been covered multiple times before.

So, I have been an admirer of the Kitfox from afar for quite some time, and a dreaming, plotting, planning future builder since I was a kid, at 44 that's been quite awhile now!

Life is coming around to where it may be possible for me to start a project in the next 24 months.

I chose the profile name BigAir on here because...well...I'm big At 6'3 1/2" with broad shoulders and tipping it at 275 pounds many of the STOL two place options on the market are just too small for me both pilot fit wise but more importantly useful load wise.

Having never flow in a Kitfox, or for that matter sat in one I put the question to you all...will I fit?

For those of you who have built Series 7 planes, what is the reality when it comes to useful load for a plane that is standardly equipped, probably with a 100hp 912 on the nose, though I do love the look and sound of the R2800.

Thanks all, and if any of you ever fly into the greater Monterey Bay area, I would love to meet up and check out your plane.

[DBVZ]

I have not built one myself; but I believe you will find that a KF 5-6-7 will be about 800 or so empty, and max gross will be 1550 unless someone limits it to 1320 to make it LSA. The MFG (builder) gets to set the max gross, though many builders leave that blank on the data plate. So 750 useful less any extra equipment added, and less fuel of about 28 gallons. You have lift left for 2 guys about your weight without baggage. The issues will be other dimensions. Shoulder room, leg room, etc. Better go find one to sit in and see. I sat in a very nice KF 6 at an airshow recently. The owner was very willing to show it off.

[Dorsal]

Best info I have on this is my buddy who is 6'4" 250. We fit in the plane together but a little tight. I'm 6'2" 190 and the plane is a 7, empty weight 800. I agree you need to find one and sit in it.

[kmach]

Hi , I am 6'2" and 230 lbs , I personally would not want anything smaller than my kitfox 5. my empty weight is 825 lbs, gross 1550 = useful load of 725 lbs

[rogerh12]

Hi, I am 5'9" and weigh 250 lbs and
boy do I feel fat right now !!!

[BigJohn]

I am 6'3" 250 + or - depending on season, My son is 6'1" 245 and we fit in our 5, now it is tight with us two big lugs. Have done several trips with my wife and luggage and she carries a lot so lets just say with luggage and her and me we are a good 500lbs, Flown into and out of a lot of very high density altitude airports with no problems.

Myself and passenger at 200lbs with about 30lb in luggage and 90lb of fuel I can at 3200' density get off the ground with no problem in less than 400'. I have the 912uls and wouldn't go any smaller, I fly with a couple of others that have avids and the jabiru 2200 and it would be just to small in the 5,6 or 7 kitfox.

[BigAir]

Thanks all for the replies, much appreciated.

I had done the math on the posted useful load numbers, guess I was interested to see how "realistic" they were. No offense to the good folks at Kitfox, and maybe I am just a cynic at heart, but I always take performance numbers of anything, let alone aircraft with a grain of salt.

One of the main reasons I am so interested in the KF is the useful load of 750lbs. I think that is a number that works for even a big oaf as myself.

My gal is quite petite, I won't post her weight because I not THAT stupid:p, but suffice it to say, she and I, a full load of fuel and the 150 baggage limit would have us well under 750.

Can't say I know of any other plane in this class/size that offers as much useful load with any sort of track record behind it.

I suspect the majority of my flight time will be solo, but I fully agree with you all that I need to crawl into a 7 and try one on for size.

Thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions, and if any of you find yourself in my neck of the woods I would be happy to buy you a cup of coffee or a beer to pick your brains a bit.

[DAT]

I'm also new to the site and just figuring the Kitfox out. I'm 6'4" 250. My 5 is 832 lbs empty with 1550 lb gross. With both of us and full fuel we will fit and be below gross and within CG. I'm wide at the shoulder and my height is in my torso. I felt that the bubble doors would provide more shoulder room and comfort than the standard doors so they are being added. No problem with the leg room with the adjusting pedals. Mine has the Rotax 912UL. It's a little anemic with temps nearing 100. With the big loads, the 912 S would be welcome. Lighter, it's a lot of fun as it is.

DAT

[BigAir]

Hi Dat, thanks for your input. Sounds like we are built similarly. My height comes from my torso as well. I'm 6'3 1/2" but my inseam is only 32. I'm also wide at the shoulder, I wear a 52 long athletic cut suit coat...have fun finding that on the rack

Have you installed the bubble doors yet? If so do you feel more comfortable with them? Do they affect flight at all? To be honest I didn't know that was an option. Have a picture of them?

[montana_jim]

I booked some time with Paul Leadabrand. He does training in a Supersport. I'm tall and big and Paul is tall and thin. The Kitfox has lots of room and performs well.

If you have any doubt, I would book some time with him and his kitfox. You can find information on the Kitfox site under training.

[Agfoxflyer]

My first passenger was a CFI who flew at the time a single place Pitts. He was 250 lbs. I am 240. He, being a Pitts driver, was impressed with the flying qualitities. We were shoulder to shoulder but not uncomfortable. My brother is 6 ft 4 in. and he has flown with me in the Kitfox.In fact I believe the Kitfox is more comfortable than the RV-9A that I am flying.

[BigAir]

Montana_Jim: Good idea. Biz is taking me to Idaho soon, think I will contact him and see if we can make that work.

Agfoxflier: thanks for the response, seems to be the consensus that it will be tight with another guy of size in the plane but not restrictively so which I am totally fine with.

[AaronWhitaker]

Just to add my piece: I'm 6'4" but not as heavy as some of you. I'm right at 200 lb. My plane is a Series 6 with the bubble doors installed. The engine is the Rotax 912 ULS. The empty weight is 792 lb. Max takeoff weight is supposed to be 1500 lb but we haven't been able to get it there yet. Putting that much weight in the baggage area would put us out of balance.

My height is in the legs mostly but the leg room is just right. I just put the adjustable rudders as far forward as possible. If I tip my head back, it bumps the rear main spar carry thru tube, but that hasn't been a problem. The bubble doors add to the shoulder room and give great visibility. I haven't noticed any reduction in performance.

[Dave S]

Pete N,

On your original question regarding the useful load; I thought it might be good to share with you how the useful load works out for someone like me who MADE NO ATTEMPT to keep the empty weight down.

Our plane is a series 7 with the 912ULS; and, it has what most would regard as a lot of extra weight with dual electrical systems (meaning two busses, two alternators two batteries) the optional airbox (which helps, according to Rotax, with extracting the 100 HP out of the ULS) a larger and heavier baggage enclosure, the wingtip mounted standard strobes with one power unit in each wingtip; and, a few other miscellaneous things which bring the empty weight up to 860# - well over what most folk's kitfoxes weigh.

With an 860# empty weight - that still gives a person 690# empty weight - or you can still put over 500# of people and baggage on board with full fuel. Admittedly I am somewhat of a skinny kid at 160 # and almost 6' but the series 7 as an EAB (rather than a sport plane) is better than anything I have flown before. Even maxed out at 1550 I like it.

Sincerely,

Dave S
KF7 Tribear
912ULS, Warp Drive

[BigAir]

Thanks Dave, sounds like you put a nice plane together!

Purely by kismet my possible Idaho biz trip got pushed to the forefront and I will be in Boise this Wednesday afternoon. I've called Kitfox and talked to John already. If all goes smoothly at my earlier meetings I should be spending Wednesday's later afternoon at the factory. I also called Paul and left him a voice mail, if he can sneaky me in I would love to buy an hour of airtime with him or one of his staff.

[Av8r3400]

I'm not tall, 5-9" but I did weigh 235# when I flew from northern Georgia home to northern Wisconsin (Sun 'n Fun trip...) with a 200# 5-10" passenger in my model IV.

We were definitely heavy, (I was given the call sign "Kitfox Heavy") but the airplane performed more than adequately on only 80 hp (912UL). Easily climbing to 8000+ altitude.

The fit was cozy, but not uncomfortable.

[DAT]

It looks like we pretty much have the interior line for the NFL flying Kitfox aircraft. Much to be said for the design and utility of the plane! There are not many planes flying today that you can load full fuel and 570 lbs of people and gear and still be within the CG. I've had a few 4 place planes that wouldn't do that. The ATC may start giving instruction "cleared to land 36, you are trailing a Kitfox Heavy, caution wake turbulence!"

DAT

[BigAir]

Kitfox Heavy...I like that

I think your right Dat, some hefty boys on here! That said, it makes complete sense. I've been dreaming about building a kit plane since I was in high school. Most the kits that have been on the market for the past 25 years of so have a useful load in the low 500's if that. I've was 235 when I was 18 without an ounce of fat on me and it has only gone up from there. You consider the average kit carries about 20 to 25 gallons of fuel before you know it, a guy like me is looking at full fuel and possibly a chihuahua as a co-pilot. I'm guessing the larger guys in this avocation migrate toward the kitfox for this very reason.

I'm amazed and so very pleased to learn from you all that the advertised useful load figures for the KF are not only real, but accurate with very appreciable performance to boot!

Thanks for sharing the pic and story Av8r3400.

So all is set for tomorrow, Paul has agreed to meet me in the late afternoon in Boise and I've booked an hour of his time in the Super Sport he teaches in. I'm really looking forward to this!

[DAT]

I wish you safety and blue skies.

Let us know what you think.

Cheers

DAT

[BigAir]

Hi All,

So I made it to Boise this past week and all worked out schedule wise with Paul Leadabrand at Stick & Rudder and at the Kitfox factory.

The short story...I must make one of these wonderful machines MINE!

The plane is exactly what I have always thought it would be from all perspectives. To address one of the key questions in my original post here, yes a large man fits in the Kitfox, and actually quite comfortably.

Paul isn't the smallest of men and he and I could share the cockpit quite nicely, course your going to be rubbing shoulders but so what. Headroom was adequate, though if I tilted my head back a bit past vertical it did contact a metal bar, nothing a little padding couldn't address.

All controls and switches were well within reach and capable of full range of movement. As for visibility, it is a dream.

The only change I would make to the way Paul's LSA is set up would be to move the throttle up a few inches and possible to the right (he had me sitting left seat) as my knee was in contact with it most of the flight.

John McBean and his crew at the factory were quite nice, communicative and welcoming. I enjoyed seeing the facilities and several Kitfox's in various stages of construction.

Paul is very knowledgeable about all things Kitfox, a poised and confident flyer, and from what I could gleam from the short time we got to spend together, a competent and motivated instructor. When the time comes I plan to avail myself of his instructional services.

As for flying in the Kitfox...well....WOW what a blast, I've been smiling all week. I met Paul at Western Aircraft the FBO at Boise (BOI).

He gave me a quick briefing on the plane, ascertained my general knowledge about flying and the Kitfox then invited me to climb in.

Paul's Bose noise canceling headsets do the trick, if you haven't tried them...do!

So we headed out of Boise for the factory in Homedale, the plane climbed quickly a couple thousand feet and Paul let me get a feel for how responsive the controls are...which is to say...be amazed at how little one needs to move anything to make the plane dance a bit...again, WOW and I NEED one of these :D

The time at the factory was great, Paul gave me the complete tour and I was able to meet quite a few of the staff (it was after 5:00 so not everyone was there) and I was glad to have the opportunity to talk to John and his wife.

On our way back to BOI Paul decided to show me the "fun side" of flying the Kitfox and we did some low and slow sight seeing down the river and through the fields. I got a taste of the planes off field ability as Paul put her down on an old dirt crop duster strip that slopes up a hill.

I took some video of the return flight and the off field landing and posted it on YouTube, go here to see the videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/KitfoxDreaming#p/u/5/QGFdZgkWdD0

I could keep rambling on and on...I really enjoyed it that much but I have a house full of friends and family waiting for me to fire up the grill so I will warp it up here along with some pictures from the day.

If any of you ever bring your planes to Northern or Central Coast California PLEASE reach out, I would love the opportunity to see your planes and pick your brains over a beer or a meal...

http://www.stinkinghippie.com/kitfox/IMG_0862.JPG
Paul & I at the factory about to climb in for the return flight.

http://www.stinkinghippie.com/kitfox/IMG_0824.JPG
How we fit in the plane.

http://www.stinkinghippie.com/kitfox/IMG_0820.JPG
Paul's cockpit.

http://www.stinkinghippie.com/kitfox/IMG_0828.JPGFrame jig at the factory.

http://www.stinkinghippie.com/kitfox/IMG_0830.JPGMore jigs.

http://www.stinkinghippie.com/kitfox/IMG_0831.JPG
All the bits and pieces.


http://www.stinkinghippie.com/kitfox/IMG_0837.JPG

http://www.stinkinghippie.com/kitfox/IMG_0838.JPG
http://www.stinkinghippie.com/kitfox/IMG_0845.JPG

http://www.stinkinghippie.com/kitfox/IMG_0846.JPG

http://www.stinkinghippie.com/kitfox/IMG_0848.JPG

[DesertFox4]

BigAir, welcome the wonderful world of Kitfox. :D Your world has changed forever. There's no turning back now. Don't be afraid though. It's a very good thing.;)

Thanks for the write up and the very large but fun photos and several videos. I think everyone of us can remember the
day we were hooked.
Thanks for sharing yours with us.

Spending a little time with Paul was a good decision. No bigger advocate for the full utilization of the Kitfox's abilities and agility than Paul.
Lots of folks dream of back country adventures
in an STOL aircraft. Paul lives it everyday and best of all, he knows how to teach it.

Oh and BigAir. You think Paul's Kitfox handled great with two good sized guys on board. Wait until you fly one solo.
Let's just say: "You ain't seen nothing yet." :D:D:D