floats, which ones

[Slyfox]

Ok here's my problem. Which floats. My wife wants me to get the rating and put them on the fox. It's the model 4 1200 with 912uls medium IVO inflight adjust. I'm looking at the Zenier floats but see that the standard 1450 floats weigh 80lbs, the anphibs weigh 200. If I take off my landing gear I have the grove gear that should take off 40lbs. So If I stay with the standard floats I only gain about 40 lbs. that should make a decent float plane. But the convenience of having anphibs would make a world of difference for me.

I would like to know what you guys think of the performance of the standard floats vs. anphibs on the model 4, my wife will be going and flying with me. We want to take it up to our lake cabin on the weekends, save a bunch of driving time. Me and my wife weigh in at 340lbs combined. the plane right now weighs in at 540lbs

[Newkid]

Hey Steve, Remember Daryl Jones, he had that Speedster that was painted like the flag of Texas on Zenair amphibs. I rode in that plane a couple of times off of the water and wasn't too impressed with the floats. The angle of the keel behind the step was too shallow so when he went to rotate the tail end of the floats would dig into the water and slow us back down. More speed would have helped but that plane would hit a wall where it would quit accelerating on the water. With a 912UL and at gross weight it took us about 30 seconds to struggle off of the water, way too long. Jerry Deitz out of Couer d' Alene had a IV on Aerocet amphibs with a 912S. It weighted 710 empty on the floats and performed very well. He did say the Aerocets were a bit underfloated though.

[Slyfox]

Sorry to say Jerry is no longer with us, but there is a fella locally that baught the plane. I'm thinking to go with the standard floats, but than I have the problem of no landing on ground. I have thoughts of building a trailer to remove it at a boat launch, at felts to be exact. Well see, have to see what it takes to get in and out at the river at felts. Like mauring it there to be exact. I know what it takes, for the tower is in control sort of on that. thanks for the report on the amphibs, I kind of thought that.

[Slyfox]

one more question. How does the fox slip with floats on?

[Newkid]

Ya I heard about Jerry. Straights are the way to go as far as performance and simplicity. Good choice!

[Slyfox]

here is another question, how do they land on snow?

[akflyer]

Full lotus... AWESOME on snow and ice. Aluminum floats??? well, in powder they are OK, but the first time you hit a snowmachine track it will be your last.

[Slyfox]

what's your opinion of the full lotus floats?

so tell me, what kind of performance and handleing loss do you have when you go from wheels to floats, oh and the video was awsome.

[akflyer]

Believe it or not, I lost more speed going from wheels to skis than I did from wheels to floats. I lost around 250 fpm on the climb but cruise is within a few MPH of wheels. Take off on floats is significantly longer than on wheels, but with your 912 I dont see that as any sort of issue! I would LOVE to have a 912 on mine but if I am gonna spend that kind of money I will just put my pacer back in the air and keep my Avid for doing what it was designed for.

People look at the full lotus floats and think they are super draggy because they dont "look" like a conventional float. If your into boats, which one length for length, weight for weight and HP to HP would get on plane quicker... Flat bottom or deep vee. Flat bottom wins out every time. It seems to be the same in the air. I have had the same results on a PA 12 and a PA-20 on the full lotus. Little to no MPH loss versus 15+ MPH loss in cruise on EDO 2000's.

[Slyfox]

I'm sure you do this kind of flying, 20feet off running through trees and following a small creek with one tire in reference to the creek. Oh and using rudder to make the turns, you know flat turning. can you do that sort of thing with the floats.

[chefwarthog]

I don't know the owner of this beauty, this is my dream, so I can understand why you want to put a Kitfox on float!!!:)

[War Eagle]

That bird belongs to Kevin C. Laingsburg Michigan.

He is a member of this forum. I spoke with him at Oshkosh this year and he was getting ready to put it on wheels.

[akflyer]

yes, and no.. sure you can flat turn, but why??? flying uncoordinated and pushing it in flat turns just gives a reason to be nominated for a Darwin Award. I can slip the ever loving @#it out of it and drop like a rock, and I do this on most landing (by deffinition A lake is a hole in the ground so they are normaly alot lower than surrounding terrain). I do lots of very low level yanking and banking and have yet to find a good reason for flat turns, but that is just me.

[Slyfox]

flat turns, lets say it improves your chances of winning a spot landing contest. If you have vgs flat turns are very possible and no risk

[Slyfox]

i just recieved some information from an instructor for seaplane rating, he said that slips with floats carries a chance that air will be blocked for the tail in a slip. So I guess flat turns or any other type of so called horse play we enjoy with wheels is pretty much out with floats.

[akflyer]

every flight carries a chance that the engine will quit... we still fly though dont we. Slips should not be discounted just because you have floats on. I do them every day. As with ANY mods or other dodads that you put on your plane, flight testing should include going to a safe altitude and performing what ever manuvers you want to do at a low altitude.. and not just once because that could be a fluke. Take it up, fly the crap out of it at a safe altitude and see how she does.. power on, power off, coordinated, un-coordinated, slips, accelerated stalls, the whole gamut. This will tell you all you need to know about YOUR plane with YOUR installation.

Here is why I say with YOUR installation. I may fly MY plane at a much more rearward CG than you are comfortable with therefore I have have my step way further back that you would. The further forward the step, the more float sticking out past the nose, the more pronounced the tendedency for the nose to wander is. The answer to this is increased verticle stab area (hence the ventral fin). If it were on a certified install like say a PA-18 where the step is in the exact same location on each aircraft per the rigging instructions then there is no real change in flight characteristics between planes. In the experimental world, we each kind of do what we want so MY plane rigged MY way on full lotus floats, may not fly anything CLOSE to how you have yours installed and rigged. I know that I have changed mine 5 different times on the rigging to get it dialed in just right for me. This included changing step position and AOA. Some things are a trade off! With increased AOA I could get off the water quicker, but at a BIG penatly to the cruise flight and climb as the nose of the floats were pointed down too much causing lots of drag. I settled on a happy medium for cruise/ climb and take off. There are still some days I wish I had more AOA so I could get off the water alot quicker, but the real answer to that is HP... Hence me working on that issue now :D

[jsimmo97]

Hey folks.... I just posted a post. I am 90% complete with a Full Lotus install on my Kitfox IV 1050. I am trying to find someone out there who can take me to 110%, inspect my install, test fly, tweak and then provide transition training.

Let me know if you know anyone in the KF community. I live in Austin, Tx.

[av8rps]

Ok here's my problem. Which floats. My wife wants me to get the rating and put them on the fox. It's the model 4 1200 with 912uls medium IVO inflight adjust. I'm looking at the Zenier floats but see that the standard 1450 floats weigh 80lbs, the anphibs weigh 200. If I take off my landing gear I have the grove gear that should take off 40lbs. So If I stay with the standard floats I only gain about 40 lbs. that should make a decent float plane. But the convenience of having anphibs would make a world of difference for me.

I would like to know what you guys think of the performance of the standard floats vs. anphibs on the model 4, my wife will be going and flying with me. We want to take it up to our lake cabin on the weekends, save a bunch of driving time. Me and my wife weigh in at 340lbs combined. the plane right now weighs in at 540lbs

Slyfox,

I fly a Model IV-1200 with an 80 hp 912ul and an IVO IFA Ultralight prop on Aerocet amphibs. It is an awesome performer, but is underfloated. But even with only 80 hp and being underfloated it will easily haul 400 lbs of people off the water with full fuel (large tanks). And mine is much heavier than yours, coming in empty on amphibs at 776 lbs (its a real pig with lots of options and gobs of heavy paint). But as I said, it still performs great.

The Zenair floats would be a good choice. But you probably don't have to go with the 1450's. I think the 1150's would work ok, as Zenair floats traditionally have more buoyancy than they rate them in their title (I believe the 1150's are more like 1250's for buoyancy). I've flown a Rans S7 on the Zenair 1150 amphibs, while it wasn't any too much floatation, it worked out just fine overall. And that Rans weighed right around 900 lbs empty on the floats, so it is over a hundred pounds heavier than a Kitfox IV would be. I gave a lot of rides in that 1150 Zenair amphib equipped Rans, including some really big guys. The bows sat a bit low when overloaded, but it still got on and off the water just fine.

The comment about the rear of the float not being able to rotate is only somewhat correct. Sure, it would be nice if the angle was more severe so as to allow a higher rotation angle, but with the 100 hp 912s and a light kitfox like yours, I'd be amazed if that would be any issue. I personally think you'd like the Zenair floats on your plane. Check out zenairs website for the video of a Kitfox on float to see how it does; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JG6H3R9rErg&feature=youtu.be

The question you had about amphib or straight float...go amphibs. It's a no brainer when you have a 100 hp Kitfox that is light and will conseuently have no issue hauling the extra weight of a set of amphib floats. And performance even on amphibs will still be exceptional, generally as good or better than most GA aircraft on straight floats. But if you want a real rocketship, put it on straight floats. A 100 hp 912 Model IV with an IVO IFA would rock on straight floats!

[SkyPirate]

there is a complete set up on barnstormers Steve ,..that were on an Avid,..I should have got the link for you ,..but lost my connection before I remembered ..dang back woods dial up connection!

[predmond]

I recently acquired an 80 hp 912 powered Model III KF (w/ Mod. IV wings), on 1220 Full Lotus with retractable gear. I haven't weighed it, but according to the builder, it was 657 lbs. on conventional gear, and 849 lbs. as presently configured.

I'm curious about the weight differences. Are Model III's typically much heavier than IV's? You say that 776 lbs. is heavy. Mine does not seem to have much in the way of heavy options.

Right now it won't get 340 lbs. of people and 10 gals. of fuel even up on the step, at 1400' DA (which should be 96% power), without a stiff headwind.

I'm considering the IVO IFA 72" to replace the wooden GSC 68". Any thoughts on two blade vs. three blade?

[akflyer]

How many RPM are you turning on takeoff?? Just for comparison, on my 582 powered avid, with the prop set for cruise ( IVO IFA 72") I will only turn 48-5200 on take off on floats and it will not get on step. With the IFA I can flatten it out and turn 6500 and then feed in pitch to keep the RPM and EGT under control as I gain speed. If it is the old style amphib gear, I would not use them for much more than beaching.. The 1220 are a little small for the KF or Avid and the 1450 work MUCH better!

[av8rps]

The weight difference between our planes is more likley the difference in the floats, or more specifically the landing gear on your floats. You could try removing the gear and see if that makes much difference.

BUT if it were me, before doing anything I'd give that IVO prop a try. I'd suggest the IFA 72" 3-blade ultralight version (do not let them sell you "plus" blades or the patriot blade...they have too much built in pitch for the 80 hp 912). That is going to be the best way to make the best use of all 80 ponies that 912 has. That GSC prop is kind of a nice looking wood prop, but the IVO (ground adjustable or especially the IFA) will greatly outperform it. I'm convinced if I didn't have the IVO on my plane that I would have already installed a 912s in the quest for better performance on floats. But because of the prop, the 80 works fine.

You could also opt to install high compression pistons in your 912ul (I believe Lockwood still sells the pistons) that will up the horsepower by about 10 or 11 hp. That too is likely to help your situation.

After that, if things are still not satisfactory I would suggest a harder look at the floats and the rigging.