In flight fires

[Jerrytex]

In the area that I live, an experimental Ravin 500 went down the other day due to what is believed an in flight fire. There was a recent post on this forum about a Kitfox speedster that went down from what is believed to be an in flight fire. Just curious to know what others are doing to prevent and or combat this if it happens. It seems like the majority of the time if there is an in flight fire, the result is a fatality. I am going to carry a halon fire extingusher but are there other safeguards? Opinions, suggestions? Thanks.

[rogerh12]

FYI ....

For those of you who have not yet had a fuel leak inside the aircraft of a aircraft, don't put anything on the floor that can absorb and hold fuel (including insulation). Beter yet, install a small screen on the bottom fabric to let fuel out, if nessisary. The kitfox has a great deal of fuel passing though the cabin, beter safe then .... well you know.

Roger

[RobS]

Always good to reread/review the standard procedures for dealing with an in-flight fire. Here is an AOPA flight training article that is worth reading - not sure if you have to be a member to access this:

http://flighttraining.aopa.org/students/flighttestprep/skills/fire.html (http://flighttraining.aopa.org/students/flighttestprep/skills/fire.html)

[Dave S]

In flight fires - Whew!

That is a subject any of us hopes never to have to deal with. This may seem a little simplistic; but, it probably boils down to two things.

1) Prevention
2) What to do if you get one.

I think the second thing is best dealt with via our emergency procedure training and such resources as the AOPA reference which has been mentioned. An adjunct to this is any of us building; when we put our pilot's operating manual together for the airplane we are building, need to be very thoughtful concerning the nature of the systems we have built and give careful consideration to emergency procedures specific to our build. Nobody knows better than the builder. Simple straightforward emergency procedures in the cockpit are pretty important since the second failure following a system failure can often involve one's brain and it is good to have something written down to compensate for that.

Prevention is painted with a pretty broad brush stroke; however, it boils down to:
a) Building to minimize fire risk
b) Maintaining to minimize fire risk
c) Operating to minimize fire risk

I'll throw out a challenge. Information sharing can hopefully be of use to the entire community.

In your Kitfox experience, what have you done to:

a) Build to minimize fire risk
b) Maintain to minimize fire risk
c) Operate to minimize fire risk

If each person comes up with one good idea, it might help us all.:)

Sincerely,

Dave S.
KF 7 Trigear

[BigJohn]

I know that it should go without saying but an ounce of prevention is worth a lb of cure or in this case an inflight fire. I was checking my fuel lines a couple of months ago and saw what seemed to be a small sign of ageing on one, After further inspection and pulling off lines I found that they were showing severe signs internally of age, I took the ounce of prevention and replaced all fuel lines from the tanks all the way to the carbs, and put in a new vent line.

In addition I put shut off's (I know the controversy) one on each side to shut off any specific fuel tank if needed, again an option to prevent further fuel into the cockpit area if needed and It has not hindered any flow.

I also a few months prior noticed on the fuel sight gauges that they were beginning to show signs of age and replaced them with the new style that Kitfox has, I should have at that time checked the entire system I would have found then I should have replaced all the lines. I also carry an extinguisher but it would only be good for the most minor fire.

[jonbakerok]

That Ravin was running a recently installed Corvette conversion, complete with high-pressure automotive fuel injection.

Maybe it's just coincidence, but it seems like every time I hear about a crash caused by an in-flight fire, it's an auto conversion and fuel injection. That was true of the one Kitfox fire and crash that I'm aware of, which had a way-too-big Subaru installed up front. And there was also an RV6 with a Chevy V6 conversion in Oklahoma that I remember from about 8 years ago. And Bud's previous crash four years ago was another Corvette conversion.

I don't mean to diminish the issue. Frankly, the Kitfox fuel system has always worried me, and I'm plumbed most of my cockpit in aluminum for that very reason. But since most of us are running a carb with gravity feed, at least if something breaks we won't be pumping fuel on a hot engine at 35 PSI!

[Dave S]

Hi Jon,

When you say you have plumbed most of the cockpit with aluminum tubing - how much do you mean? What did you do with the wing root area so the wings can fold? I stuck with the rubber hoses from the wingtanks to header - then aluminum tubing from the header to the fuel valve; and, rubber again from the fuel valve to the firewall - that is per the plans spec. Curious how much of the rubber you were able to replace with aluminum tubing. Sounds like a really good idea.

I have an electric boost pump at the low spot in the system; but, it stays switched off during normal operation.

Sincerely,

Dave S
KF7 Trigear
912ULS Warp

[DesertFox4]

Every year I replace all flexible vinyl fuel lines in the cockpit along with both site gauge tubes. I have aluminum fuel lines from my header tank up to my aux. electric fuel pump then to the fuel valve next to my fuel flow transducer then to the firewall bulkhead fitting. Nothing moves in those areas so aluminum is fine.
My model 4 has been in service now since Oct. 2003. At five years I replaced all oil and fuel lines under the cowlings. All looked just fine. Mine are stainless steel wrapped for abrasion and heat resistance so you can't see the actual hose under the SS wrap so for that reason they got replaced. Won't be long until another 5 years will be up and all will get replaced again if not sooner.
Fire sleeves are a good idea on all under cowling fuel lines.
I too have fuel shut off valves above both see through fuel filters coming from each wing tank.
I do need to get a new extinguisher on board.

One thing I did on my model 4 is go with a Stainless Steel one piece firewall and it extends farther underneath the Kitfox towards the tail than stock firewalls. Gives a little more fire protection from flames coming under the aircraft in the leg and seat area. Also a little more puncture resistant if landing/crashing in trees or bushes or the like.

Keep your exhaust system in good repair. Bad fitting exhaust or retaining springs that are almost wore through on the tabs need to be replaced. Check mufflers frequently for damage. Rotax's used to be notorious for breaking "stingers". Not fun to be dumping hot exhaust gasses in the engine compartment or setting your cowlings on fire.

Another thought is what type of clothing you wear while flying. Cotton is probably best. Anything polyester is not a great choice. It will melt to the skin in a flash fire. Nasty injuries from melting clothing. Shorts , not such a good idea either for obvious reasons. I like leather footwear also if at all possible.

[rogerh12]

My car caught fire one day driving home. Yes, it had fuel injection. The fuel rail leaked on the spark plug, didn't take long to roast my supra.
I firmly believe there should be NOTHING burnable under the hood. That means no plastic or vynal covered wires, just metal and sicone sheets, tubing, spark plug wires... everything !!!! (inside the plane, that's not a bad idea too.)

Roger




That Ravin was running a recently installed Corvette conversion, complete with high-pressure automotive fuel injection.

Maybe it's just coincidence, but it seems like every time I hear about a crash caused by an in-flight fire, it's an auto conversion and fuel injection. That was true of the one Kitfox fire and crash that I'm aware of, which had a way-too-big Subaru installed up front. And there was also an RV6 with a Chevy V6 conversion in Oklahoma that I remember from about 8 years ago. And Bud's previous crash four years ago was another Corvette conversion.

I don't mean to diminish the issue. Frankly, the Kitfox fuel system has always worried me, and I'm plumbed most of my cockpit in aluminum for that very reason. But since most of us are running a carb with gravity feed, at least if something breaks we won't be pumping fuel on a hot engine at 35 PSI!

[Jerrytex]

What kind of brought this up was not only the recent crashes but also I noticed on my firewall blanket, the gray covering has some some heat damage. This occurred before I got it and the engine only ran 17 hours so I want to make sure I do everything I can to prevent a fire. I too have all aluminum from the header tank to the aux pump and then all the way to the gascolator then firesleeved rubber hose to the fuel pump. I am concerned about the exhaust system and was thinking about maybe wrapping the exhaust pipes that are in close proximity to things that can melt i.e. firewall blanket covering, heater hoses, etc. with that exhaust wrap that you can buy for wrapping headers. Seem like this would keep the heat inside the pipes. I attached some pics of the damage that I am talking about.

[Paul Z]

FYI ....

For those of you who have not yet had a fuel leak inside the aircraft of a aircraft, don't put anything on the floor that can absorb and hold fuel (including insulation). Beter yet, install a small screen on the bottom fabric to let fuel out, if nessisary. The kitfox has a great deal of fuel passing though the cabin, beter safe then .... well you know.

Roger


And believe me the plastic header tank can leak! I have posted some photos of my tank prior to replacing it!

[rogerh12]

A few things about heat wrap. Yes, I use it and it works. I use it for several reasons, such as not wanting to melt my close fitting fiberglass cowling, and it protects me from burns when working on my engine hot (zenith 601) However, having said that, don't use it unless you really need it. It does increase the heat on the pipes and does crack them (guess how I know).
When they crack, you can't tell until the crack is really bad and spewing hot exhast, then it might soon be too late..

A better idea is to heat wrap the things next to the pipe, if they can be burned or heat damaged if the pipe cracks. Also, check your exhuast pipes on a regular bases, use a mirror if neccesary.

Hope this helps
Roger

[szicree]

I recall being told by the guy who made my RV-4 exhaust that the heat wraps will wreck the tubes. Better to use the metal heat shields that stands a bit off the pipe.

[DesertFox4]

+ 1 to what Roger and Steve said about the exhaust wrap. Heat shields work with little or no unintended consequences. Recent reading on Van's Airforce website adds to the idea that the down side may outweigh the benefits.
Premature failure of the exhaust system seems to be the general consensus.

If choosing that route increased vigilance very well may be needed to keep the exhaust system in safe operating condition.

[Jerrytex]

Thanks to all for the heads up on the heat wrap. I'll start engineering some heat shields instead.

[BigJohn]

Has anyone heard of any issues on Ceramic Coating your Exhaust, I know that it really cuts down on the heat on the 2 stroke engines and it should do the same on the 912 as far as more protection and lowering the external heat temp around the exhaust area. I believe I heard it could be done for about $200.00 ?

[wannafly]

Here is a very cool material that is used on racecars . It is very light weight and is quiet amazing. It may be useful for some of the application being discussed here. I plan on using it if I ever redo my firewall. Watch the video. Let me know what you think. like you wouldn't...

www.heatblok.com (http://www.heatblok.com)

[War Eagle]

I went with the ceramic option. It cost me about $250 with shipping. Looked really nice. Thought I had the cats meow.

See before and after pictures.

The sales pitch was to reduce cowling heat.

Didn't last 40 hours and it was all burnt off.

Now I have a 914 and the exhaust can get pretty toasty but it was a complete waste of money.

[chefwarthog]

It is a very interesting product Wannafly, do you know the $ of this insulation?

[DesertFox4]

Mic , check out Dan's build site. He's already installed the Heatbloc on his new Model 4. Did a beautiful job on the install. See photos here. Looks like a viable product for this discussion. We'll know more when he is flying soon.
http://www.azshowersolutions.com/Engine10.html

Make sure you click on "Next" at the bottom of Dan's page to see more photos of the install of the Heatbloc.

[Jerrytex]

Wow. The heat block looks like the perfect solution. I would hate to disassemble the entire FWF to replace the firewall blanket, but I bet I could piece it in the areas near the exhaust. Might give it a try in addition to the heat shields that I am already working on. Thanks.

[Dorsal]

Well my cute little fire extinguisher just arrived from aircraft spruce. Not sure it would help in the case of an in flight engine fire but better to have and not need etc. I thought it fitting as I ordered it the day before this thread started.

[jtpitkin06]

Well, this thread certainly got me thinking. For light aircraft the threat seems to be engine fires. In large aircraft, the problem is more likely electrical fires. (I had one of those on an MD-80… not fun.)


For light aircraft, It seems it would be a simple installation to put a delivery hose over the nozzle of a fire extinguisher and direct it to the engine compartment intakes. In an emergency, one could pull the pin and squeeze the handle to flood the cowling with fire fighting agent.



Simple and cheap. Not too heavy. Replacement parts at any home center.
Something is better than nothing when you are on fire.


In Flight Engine Fire Checklist


Ignition …OFF
Mixture …IDLE CUT OFF
Fuel Valve… OFF
Throttle… FULL OPEN
Master Switch …OFF
Extinguisher Safety Pin ….PULL
Extinguisher Handle …SQUEEZE AND HOLD 10 SECONDS
Forced landing Procedure… ACCOMPLISH


John Pitkin
Greenville, TX

[Andrew G]

http://www.bydanjohnson.com/

scroll down and read the story about the Piper Sport (LSA) mishap... gheesh...

[Jerrytex]

Very sad to hear about the pilot in the Piper Sport. At first I really thought that an in flight fire was rare but if you look around, they appear to occur quite frequently. I remember awhile back there was an in flight collision involving a Cirrus. They deployed the BRS chute and basically prolonged the burning as it floated down. The plane was severly damaged and most likely would have crashed regardless but the fire definately sealed the deal. It seems that recovering after the fire has started is a real crap shoot. As other people have mentioned, prevention seems like the only thing you can really do and hope for best. Glad this thread got people thinking.

[Andrew G]

John's engine compartment idea is a very very good one... that is probably the area where the majority start... and... with a firewall, how does one put the source of the fire out from the cockpit?

John, there is a business idea in that for you, I'd buy it... heck, they get $5k for a BRS up to 1,300 lbs...

[szicree]

From what I've read, indiscriminantly blasting a fire extinguisher into the cowl with 100 mph breeze blowing in does next to nothing. I think wearing a parachute might actually provide a better chance of survival.

[jtpitkin06]

I thought of this because the airliners I flew all had extinguishers that blasted CF3BR "indiscriminately" into the cowling in the event of an engine fire. Those jet cowlings have intakes and vents blowing all kinds of air around the inside and they do it up to 550 mph.

In any case, I don't think the air in a Kitfox cowling is blowing around at anything close to 100 mph. There's a lot of junk in the way slowing the air and it all has to go out the exits on the bottom.

I see a system for a home built as being a common home extinguisher with a hose over the nozzle. The hose is routed to the engine compartment and directed to some of the more likely fire locations. "Y" fittings can be used to split the flow to two locations, (Dual Carbs?)
You could make the extinguisher removable from the hose if you need to use it in the cabin.

Having been required to practice with hand held fire extinguisher units during recurrent training I can verify the agent goes all over the place in a big cloud. Those containers hold a lot of baking soda in a small container. In a confined area like a Kitfox cowling I think it would be quite effective.

For a system that weighs only a few pounds and costs about $20 to build it just might appeal to some builders. Too bad you can't get Halon for home use anymore.

John Pitkin
Greenville, TX

[rogerh12]

I have read a lot about mechanical solutions to an in flight fire (and at least one refernce to just jumping out with a parachute). These are of course important, but there is another stratagy to dealing with an in flight fire. Land fast.

Typically, the kit fox is not flown at high altitiude, the ground is just not that far below. Everyone should practice putiing the kit fox into a high drag slip and pointing at the ground. Getting down and getting out before the fire gets too bad could be a real life saver.

How fast can you decend from 2000 feet? Everyone should know this, and if you don't, now is the time to find out and really get those numbers down.

Hope this helps

Roger