Is it possible?

[chefwarthog]

Like I said in other thead, I have to bild my garage(23'X35' with cathedral rafter) before to order my kit.

I have to order my trusts with +1000lb reinforce structure. Just to recover my garage floor and store my finish plane in same time. So.....

1- Is it possible to hang the Kitfox from the ceiling with an electric hoist?

2- Where should be the strongest point of the airframe to put the anchors(2 infront 1 rear)?

3- Where is the center of gravity of the plane when nobody is in side and the wings are fold?

I hope my english is comprehensible....

Thanks for your help.
Eric:rolleyes:

[SkyPirate]

If I were going to suspend the plane from the rafters after it was completed, I would build a "cradle" that I could roll the plane onto so that the plane sat on it's wheels, then hoist the cradle up after I secured the wheels of the plane to the cradle

Chase

[avidflyer]

I would think you would have no problem if you attached on both sides of the front wing carry through. Then a third attachment on the tail at the front of the horizontal stabilizer. Take care,
Jim Chuk
Avid MK IV (flying)
Kitfox 4 (building)
norhern Mn

[t j]

Where is the center of gravity of the plane when nobody is in side and the wings are fold?My classic 4 in level attitude has 515 pounds total on the main wheels and 35 pounds on the tail wheel. In 3 point attitude with wings folded, 375 pounds total on the main wheels and 175 pounds on the tail wheel. Arms are +2.5 inches to the mains and 158.5 inches to the tail wheel in the level attitude.

Not sure where that puts the CG exactly. A rough estimate is about 52 inches. It gives you a rough idea of how the weight moves back with wings folded.

Looks like the rear spar carry through tube would be supporting the bulk of the weight.

Fuel in the tanks will increase these weights.

If I was going to suspend it I would replace the wing attach bolts and pins with eye bolts. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/eyebolts.php

The though tube at the front base of the vertical fin might work for the rear attachment but I would want someone with more engineering knowledge than myself to check that first.

[DesertFox4]

Last time I was in Murle Williams shop he had 3 Kitfox's hanging from the steel rafters. All on electric hoists.

[t j]

chefwarthog asked:

I have to order my trusts with +1000lb reinforce structure. Just to recover my garage floor and store my finish plane in same time. So.....

Desert Fox 4 said:

Last time I was in Murle Williams shop he had 3 Kitfox's hanging from the steel rafters. All on electric hoists.

Now you have me interested!

Wart, be sure to tell the truss engineers you want to suspend an airplane from their truss design.

[chefwarthog]

I had thought that insert piece of tubing inside of the front wing carry through could tear up or bend the structure because of all the weith, you think those attache point will hold up? but it will easyer to tie from those point, that build a skid, not that the cradle is not a good gist, but I try to keep it simple.:D


Thanks Jim, Chase.

[chefwarthog]

In 3 point attitude with wings folded, 375 pounds total on the main wheels and 175 pounds on the tail wheel. Arms are +2.5 inches to the mains and 158.5 inches to the tail wheel in the level attitude.


So if I follow you, total weight is distribute 2/3 in front 1/3 rear.

Do you think that this affirmation still exact for the SS and will the those attache point will hold up?

[carpat]

Hi Eric,
I sent you an e-mail to tell you that I live in Sherbrooke, Quebec and wanted to communicate with you in french by phone. Did you receive it?
Thanks

Pat

[chefwarthog]

Last time I was in Murle Williams shop he had 3 Kitfox's hanging from the steel rafters. All on electric hoists.


You think is it possible to get pictures?

[Slyfox]

if you are going to swing the wings back than most of the weight is twards the back. So account for that. I would take and weigh the plane at the rear wheel with the wings pulled back and weigh the mains, you'll get your answere. one last thing, don't support from the tail feathers, this area can't take the load, you'll have to support from the wing and tail(fuse) together I would think, just remember it's pretty heavy back there with the wings swinging back.

[chefwarthog]

Hi Eric,
I sent you an e-mail to tell you that I live in Sherbrooke, Quebec and wanted to communicate with you in french by phone. Did you receive it?
Thanks

Pat

Yes Carpet, oupss sorry Carpat, I receved your email go ahead call me!:D

[chefwarthog]

if you are going to swing the wings back than most of the weight is twards the back. So account for that. I would take and weigh the plane at the rear wheel with the wings pulled back and weigh the mains, you'll get your answere. one last thing, don't support from the tail feathers, this area can't take the load, you'll have to support from the wing and tail(fuse) together I would think, just remember it's pretty heavy back there with the wings swinging back.

Thanks for your interest, it mean to me!

Eric:)

[DesertFox4]

The Kitfox's in Murle's shop have the wings removed for long term storage.

[chefwarthog]

The Kitfox's in Murle's shop have the wings removed for long term storage.


Well i don't think i will have to store it for long period of time but just hoist it down on the trailer and drive 30min to Trois-Rivières airport.:)

[t j]

In 3 point attitude with wings folded, 375 pounds total on the main wheels and 175 pounds on the tail wheel. Arms are +2.5 inches to the mains and 158.5 inches to the tail wheel in the level attitude.


So if I follow you, total weight is distribute 2/3 in front 1/3 rear.

Do you think that this affirmation still exact for the SS and will the those attache point will hold up?

2/3 front 1/3 rear is probably a good "Ball park" estimate for most Kitfoxes. Thats my opinion anyhow. This is in three point attitude remember. If you suspend it with the tail wheel higher than the main wheels then some weight will shift to the front.

I can't say anything about the attach points strength. Consider using all 4 wing attach points and a spreadder bar side to side and front to rear to distribute weight to all 4 points.

Someone with floats on their kitfox may have an idea if it is good to use these points to lift the kitfox as I see some lift their float planes from these points..

[akflyer]

I use the attach points for lifting mine for float changes. I use eye bolts on all 4 points. I have never tried to pick it up when the wings were folded. If your 23X35 you should be able to slide it in the shop sideways on some sort of a dolly and pick it up with the wings spread out. If so, a simple spreader bar and hoist is all you need to hang it.

[SkyPirate]

another option,..there are vendors that sell aircraft lifts that get installed in a corner,..you roll the plane on ,..secure the gear,..and it lifts the plane up,..what would justify the cost of this aircraft lift ,..the cost difference if there is one,.. on your trusses being built to support the weight.
you can also increase pitch on your trusses to increase load capacity,..that means more surface to cover ,..more materials to construct ,.etc,.

Things to concider when supporting anything from trusses,..geographical location,.. in effect,. snow loads,..some area's require a 45 lb roof ,.some require a 25 lb roof,..that's per square foot load capacity.

you could double up the trusses that will be supporting the weight of the aircraft too,..so essentially ,..one of the double trusses supports the roof ,..the other truss supports the plane,.. I would still make a rack/cradle that the plane rolled onto with the wings folded back so the landing gear supported the planes weight ,...the rack/cradle could also have a "head ache bar" which would be above the plane so no chance of cranking the plane right into the trusses causing damage to the plane,..
you havent mentioned the height of your interior wall yet ,.or if you did I missed it ,..or the height of your doors ,..I would make it so the plane hung at least a foot above the top of the biggest door opening,..so anything that fits through the door won't hit the plane ,..box truck etc...

Chase

[avidflyer]

I think one should stop for a second and rethink how much weight would be suspended from each of the three points. If you use the 2 front wing attach points on the front wing carry through, you would have about 200 lbs. suspended on each side. When you think how much weight is being supported on those points at 3.8 Gs which these planes should carry without damage, 200 lbs. sounds pretty small to me. (Yes I know the struts carry a lot of this weight also but not all of it) Then look at the third attach point at the tail. The front of the verticle stabilizer is 5/8" tube if I remember right. Again you would be supporting about 200 lbs there. When you think about it, you can probably pick up 200 lbs with a 1/8" nylon rope.... that just isn't very much weight. I'll enclose a picture of the tail section of my Kitfox 4. Look at the area just in front of the horizontal stabilizer. Lots of tubeing there to spread the load around, all 200 lbs or so of it. Don't know for sure if the SS you are talking about is made the same, but I would bet it's very close. Take care,
Jim Chuk
Avid MK IV (flying)
Kitfox 4 (building)
northern Mn

[chefwarthog]

For the ingineering and construction of the garage I think I can manage it, with almost 40 000 hours in the contruction industry. But thanks for your worry...:)

So telling me to bild a flatbed that could be hoist down on a boat trailer that could look (more or less) like this.:confused:

[chefwarthog]

''Look at the area just in front of the horizontal stabilizer. Lots of tubeing there to spread the load around, all 200 lbs or so of it.''

I think your right Jim, maybe John McBean could weld an eye bolt in this region for me?:confused:

[cap01]

the lifts are pretty cool but probably expensive . i think c5 keeps his avid on one of these

[chefwarthog]

the lifts are pretty cool but probably expensive . i think c5 keeps his avid on one of these

Now this is a nice rig:eek: but like you say, it sould be $$$$:mad:

And my garage ceiling will be cathedral so lower in corners /¨-o-¨\

[SkyPirate]

I'm positive the carry thru tube and tail could support the plane suspended from those 3 points ,..I'm thinking more in the line of rafter rash,.. protecting the plane while it's suspended,.. something more like the cradle the lift in the photo has to support the plane ,..the plane is also strapped to the cradle,.. the plane being relatively light ,..it wouldn't be that extravagant to make a cradle that would support the plane plus protect it,
I wasn't informed of your knowledge in construction,..so I tried to explain what's involved,..didn't mean to step on any toe's

Chase

[chefwarthog]

I'm positive the carry thru tube and tail could support the plane suspended from those 3 points ,..I'm thinking more in the line of rafter rash,.. protecting the plane while it's suspended,.. something more like the cradle the lift in the photo has to support the plane ,..the plane is also strapped to the cradle,.. the plane being relatively light ,..it wouldn't be that extravagant to make a cradle that would support the plane plus protect it,
I wasn't informed of your knowledge in construction,..so I tried to explain what's involved,..didn't mean to step on any toe's

Chase
No not at all, and I really appreciate to dicuss with you guys, and all ideas is welcome, because my Knowledge on aviation is somehow very basic, in exchange if you got probleme on construction I will by happy to help you....:D

[SkyPirate]

I'll keep that in mind chefwarthog :) I'm building my own design aircraft right now, a 4 place tail dragger,..there's photo's of it under the "community" tab above in Social groups "ridge runners"..
as for construction ,..I'm building a 10,000 sq ft house now for myself ,..and worked with my dad who owned his own business ,..he had a few crews ,.we built 65 house a year


Chase

[t j]

Just throwing out a couple ideas. looking at my kitfox sitting on the trailer in the shop yesterday it appears attaching a lifting strap to the rear of the fuselage is pretty tight between the folded flaperons. would a lifting eye welded into the top of the vertical fin work?

With wings folded the main wheels are clear to lift from. Maybe a cradle for them or just a sling under the tires. It also looks like the front float fittings are available to attach a "lifting fixture" to.

Maybe just attach lifting eyes to the trailer and hoist the whole 9 yards, airplane and trailer.

[chefwarthog]

Maybe just attach lifting eyes to the trailer and hoist the whole 9 yards, airplane and trailer.[/quote]

T.J. if i lift plane & trailer I will lose +- 18'' of clearance under it and should be heavy, But I think you got one piece of the puzzle. if I build cradle that can be lower on the trailer that should do don't you think?

I looking at your photo and if you put your propeller in a Y position dose the top of the fin, sky light and prop do a line.

If it dose like it seem, what is the measure from top of the line (level) to under the landing tires?

Eric

[SkyPirate]

No matter where you put the lift points on the trialer or plane you still have the same height over all that will be hanging down,..with just plane it will be the height of the plane ,..with trailer and plane it will be the height of the trailer and plane,..
what system are you going to use to lift this once your ready to lift it?

[t j]

Chefwarthog asked:

I looking at your photo and if you put your propeller in a Y position dose the top of the fin, sky light and prop do a line.

If it dose like it seem, what is the measure from top of the line (level) to under the landing tires?


Measuring as close as I can right now. Tail is 67 inches high, skylight is 68 inches high, two blade 72 inch diameter prop I put close to where 3 blade Y would be is 75 inches high. So, a line from prop to tail I guess is about 72 inches above the bottom of the tires.

Someone with a Supersport should measure too. I suspect with their spring landing gear the nose is lower than my Model4 tube gear. They probably relax down some when lifted so not sure about that.

[avidflyer]

When I first got into flying about 11 years ago, I bought a Quicksilver MX which has a 32' wingspan. Next I went to build a hanger for the MX. Being kind of cheap and not thinking ahead well enough, I built a building that measured 30'X38' and put a 22' door on one end. My thought was just build a cart to put the MX on and run it in sideways. Well things moved forward and even though I eventually built another hangar with a 40' wide opening (still haven't built the door) I usually still put the Avid in the first building. It has concrete floor, electricity, and all the tools, unlike the new one with is just walls and roof. I've built several different carts to run the plane in and this is the latest design. What does this long story have to do with hanging your plane from the ceiling? If you look at my cart, take off the wheels, ramps, and winch, you would have a nice framework that the plane could sit on and be hoisted up to the ceiling with 3 cables attached to the framework. When you build the trailer, make it so you can lower the framework into some sockets where you just put a pin or bolt through each socket to keep the framework and plane on the trailer. Plane would be tied to the framework. When you get to the field to fly, untie the plane and roll it off the trailer, framework stays in place. Later roll plane back onto trailer/framework and tie it down to the framework again. When you get back home and in the garage in the right spot, hook the cables to the framework, pull the pins at the sockets and hoist the plane up out of the way. My cart is built with two 1 1/2" pipes that are under the plane's main wheels, and two 1" pipes that go back to the tailwheel. I was going to post this this morning, but didn't have any good pictures of my cart. I took these this afternoon when I was going flying. Take care,
Jim Chuk
Avid MK IV (flying)
Kitfox 4 (building)
northern Mn

[Lion8]

Hi Eric. As for the rafters supporting a load. The total weight of your Kitfox is not much of an issue provided you 'spread the load out'. I placed an 8ft. 4x4 across my joist. At the first joists from the hang point, the 4x4 is flat on the joist. At the next joist out from the hang point, I place a shim under the 4x4. Thicker shim under the next 4x4. This way, when the load deflects the 4x4, the next one picks up some of the weight. So you have several joist carrying the weight instead of one. Joist are made with metal or plywood at intersecting joints. One by itself is not enough to support any load. As we are seeing in our cities across the U.S.A.-"in unity there is strength". -Tom

[chefwarthog]

I've built several different carts to run the plane in and this is the latest design. What does this long story have to do with hanging your plane from the ceiling? If you look at my cart, take off the wheels, ramps, and winch, you would have a nice framework that the plane could sit on and be hoisted up to the ceiling with 3 cables attached to the framework. When you build the trailer, make it so you can lower the framework into some sockets where you just put a pin or bolt through each socket to keep the framework and plane on the trailer. Plane would be tied to the framework. When you get to the field to fly, untie the plane and roll it off the trailer, framework stays in place. Later roll plane back onto trailer/framework and tie it down to the framework again. When you get back home and in the garage in the right spot, hook the cables to the framework, pull the pins at the sockets and hoist the plane up out of the way

You impress me at the higtest point, doing skateboarding with your plane.:p hahaha

Thanks for takeing the time, to take those pictures for me, :)

My friend, I think you surround the answer, that I will do! (like said Yoda)

I got some interrogation.

1- I think will have to rise the tail wheel on the framework 4@6 inch to get the top of plane level in that right(for SS with 1550 landing gear)

2- Is 9ft will do to take out the plane on trailer by the garage door?

thanks for you concern guys:D
Eric

[chefwarthog]

Hi Eric. As for the rafters supporting a load. The total weight of your Kitfox is not much of an issue provided you 'spread the load out'. I placed an 8ft. 4x4 across my joist. At the first joists from the hang point, the 4x4 is flat on the joist. At the next joist out from the hang point, I place a shim under the 4x4. Thicker shim under the next 4x4. This way, when the load deflects the 4x4, the next one picks up some of the weight. So you have several joist carrying the weight instead of one. Joist are made with metal or plywood at intersecting joints. One by itself is not enough to support any load. As we are seeing in our cities across the U.S.A.-"in unity there is strength". -Tom

thanks for those explications, me and chase get though those conserns in past few reply.:)

[avidflyer]

I got some interrogation.

1- I think will have to rise the tail wheel on the framework 4@6 inch to get the top of plane level in that right(for SS with 1550 landing gear)

2- Is 9ft will do to take out the plane on trailer by the garage door?


I went and measured the tail of my Kitfox 4, and it was 67" (5' 7")from the floor to the top of the verticle stabilizer. If your's is going to be the same hight, it should be easy to fit under a 9' door if you don't make the trailer to high. Take care, Jim Chuk

[chefwarthog]

it should be easy to fit under a 9' door if you don't make the trailer to high. Take care, Jim Chuk[/quote]


It is a good news, I did not want a to large garage door in front of my garage how will be bild right next at my house, It will disguise if door is to big.....you can look for your self. this is my house

Thanks again for info and photo;)

[SkyPirate]

it will look good when your done chefwarthog,..I'm doing basically the same thing on the left of my house ,..a 28' wide by 36' deep with full basement, 4 car garage,.and it will also have rooms upstairs..with a gambrel roof like what is on the house,

Chase

[chefwarthog]

Is there some one, that can email me those drawing, but with wings fold. If they exist naturally, my architect will fit dose drawing at scale on my garage bleuprint, just to be sure that every thing look ok.

Thanks, Eric