Kitfox IV-1050 Full Lotus Floats Install Help

[jsimmo97]

Guys! I am needing some assistance on putting my Kitfox IV-1050 on Full Lotus floats. I am a rookie so I'd need help on some of the basics.

Would love to chat with you on the phone if you have the time. Please send me your info via private email message through the forum.

Questions:

1. I have a 65HP Blue Head 582 with no clutch on my prop. Do I need a clutched prop?
2. Can I use my existing warp drive prop or do I need something different.
3. I have narrowed my selection down to either Zenair or Full Lotus (1260s); cost, weight, and performance. Would love additional opinions or experience.
4. I am planning on buying a used set of floats. How do I go about rigging the floats to the plane? Can I use the gear struts from my taildragger config? Do I buy/build the rest? How about the spreader bar, buy or build?
5. I have a Kitfox IV-1050 completed in 1992, do I need to beef anything up structurally before putting her on water?

Thanks for the help!

~Jason

[Av8r3400]

You will never regret "biting the bullet" and installing the 912.

Message Av8rPS (http://www.teamkitfox.com/Forums/member.php?u=881) on this site. He has an Amphib IV with a 80HP 912UL.

[akflyer]

I think you will be disapointed with the 1260 using a 582. Solo it is a rocket off the water, at gross, chances are you will will not be able to get it on top and off the water (unless you modify the elevator so you can get more down throw to push the nose over).

The 1260 floats have a longer tail section than the 1220 floats for use with pusher prop planes where the extra engine weight is back behind the CG. With the longer tails on the plane it is not as easy to rotate once you are on top of the water, so you have to add more angle of attack on the wing. This causes more drag in flight as the nose of the floats are pointed down too much. The 1450 floats were developed with the nose section (step forward) off the 1650 floats and the tails off the 1220 floats. This gives you a float that is the same length as the 1260 floats, but the extra length (15") is from the step forward. This extra length allows you to get the step back behind the CG so you can actually get onto step much easier.

The issue I had with both the 1220 and 1260 floats was that there is not enough flotation in the front half of the float. When you move the step back behind the CG far enough to where you can easily get onto step and take off when at gross, when you land and pull the power off too quickly you can dig the noses a little bit. That is not really as much fun as it sounds like and is a great way to ruin a pair of good shorts. You can make them work, you just have to be careful not to pull the power off too fast when landing an coming off the step or she will get a little water coming over the noses.

I am flying at sea level and moderate temps. -30 to maybe 85 above max. and I cant get good performance at gross on the 1220 or 1260. Solo, it is a blast to fly. The answer is either more power, or the larger 1450 float.

For rigging, you can use your main gear for the front legs and come up with something for the rear legs. I think Jeff at Full Lotus was working on a rigging option for the Kitfox / Avid line. If not, I will be glad to pull the measurements on mine and take lots of pictures for you.

I get the streamlined tubing at Carlson Aircraft. http://www.carlsonaircraft.com/struts.html

The prop you have should be fine. You dont need the clutch, but it is nice to be able to warm the engine up without having the prop spinning on floats. I think the clutch will add to engine and airframe life anyway as it makes startup, warm up and shut down super smooth. No shaking and rattling etc.

[jsimmo97]

AkFlyer,

I just picked up a pair of 1220s with the SACs system. They came off a fellow aviator's Avid. they didn't work well with his airplane due to the 220lbs subaru motor hanging off the front. I've got a 582 so I am hoping it'll work fine.

Would love any experiences you can share such as how far back I should have the step from the CG. What angle should put them at (2-8 degrees)? etc.

Thanks for the link... I will definetly leverage them for the parts.

Also, I will take you up on your picture offer. Would love measurements if you can provide those as well.

Finally... where did you get the brackets for the fuselage to strut mounting?

thanks!

~jason

[akflyer]

My rigging came from Skystar but is easily duplicated. I will go out and get some pictures and measurements. The step needs to be about 6" behind the CG and I have found that 4 degrees positive on the wing seems to work the best. The 1220's will work great solo, but at gross you will have issues with the 582. I found the best performance with an IVO IFA prop so you can pull max RPM and HP to get you on step, then as you gain speed you can bump in more pitch to keep RPM and EGT's under control. Use full flaps to help get you on step and it will really help to push the nose over. Sealing the elevator gaps will make a huge difference also!

[CulverKF]

Does anyone have any idea of the overall dimensions of a kit fox 4 on full Lotus Amphib floats? I'm building a pole barn and would like the tail height dimension as well as the length and width...wings folded.
Thanks in advance.

[perssonj]

I have been flying with that setup for a couple of years. KF IV-1050, 582 grey head, kiev prop and full lotus floats (not sure if it is 1220 or 1260).
I fly from a 2000 ft lake and I have never experienced problem with take off. As mentioned earlier, solo is a rocket but at gross you need a longer run.

I bought the brackets from Full Lotus and made the rigging myself.

Right now I am "biting the bullet" installing a 912 ULS.

[av8rps]

Years ago I test flew a 582 powered Model 4-1050 on 1260 Full Lotus straight floats with a Warp drive 3 blade prop, and thoroughly enjoyed it. I didn't rig it, but I do remember he had a bigger than usual tail low attitude (7.5 degrees as I recall), which let if pretty much fly itself off the water at under 40 mph.

Once the hours were flown off the owner and I flew it together, and it had no issues whatsoever hauling both of us and full fuel off the water. Oh, and it wasn't a very light Model 4. I seem to recall it was 630 lbs on wheels, which is heavy for a 2 stroke powered 4. I later flew it again with the owner (at the Seaplane Base at OSH) when it had about 300 hours, and again was reminded how nice it flew. He also gave some others rides in it, so I saw it fly with a variety of passengers, and it did just great. It also made a GREAT ski plane on those floats, having zero issues even in super deep snow with both of us and full fuel. Oh, and it would cruise all day long at 88 mph, I remember that well because I was so impressed that little 64 hp 582 did that. Climb wasn't bad either. All in all it compared to a 90 hp J-3 Cub on floats, which is a great little seaplane.

With all that said, I would'nt hesitate for a minute to own a Kitfox like that. The biggest downside would be load carrying ability, so either minimize load or add some strengthening in a few areas so you could take it to 1200 or LSA standards. And then again, Kitfoxes are strong airplanes that will tolerate some overloading as long as you use some common sense.

You do not need a prop clutch. They're really nice to have on a float plane, but just extra, unneccessary weight in my mind. I've been flying floats for nearly 4 decades and haven't had one of those yet. And yes, your warp drive prop will work if at least 68 inches in diameter and has stainless leading edges. You'll just have to readjust the pitch a bit flatter.

Float choices? Zenair straight floats will be lighter than the Lotus. But I like them both. The Zenairs will provide better performance, and can probably be found pretty inexpensive used. An 1150 or 1200 Zenair would be about perfect for that Model 4 as long as you don't overload the plane by more than 20 or 30 %. Rigging parts and dimensions are available for a Kitfox from both companies.

Now, if you decide to go amphib there is a lot more to discuss, as the weights get higher, while the performance goes down. But, if you didn't already know, the factory demo Kitfox 4 1050 with a 582 was used for testing on Aerocet 1100 amphib floats, and it too did great even with two full grown men in it. So don't underestimate the capability of a 582 powered Kitfox. They were great little performers. Is a 912 nicer? Absolutely. But if that's not in one's budget right now, go out and enjoy that 582 airplane.

The most important advice I can give you about flying a 582 is to learn the engine well and to stay ahead of it on maintenance. If you do that you will love that engine, especially for the aquisition price.

Geez, I just remembered my friend in Canada that has probably more Kitfox videos on you tube than all of us combined! He has Gobs of videos of his 582 powered "totally stock" Kitfox 4 1050 flying on skis and amphib floats. Go watch his videos (kitfox flyer) and see for yourself just how much fun those planes can be. I don't need to tell you anything else if you watch those videos. Oh, and for the record, the Aerocet 1100 amphibs he has are not light floats. The non amphib Zenairs and the full lotus are significantly lighter, so the performance would be much better.

If all that doesn't answer your questions, feel free to call me at 715 581 4381 and I'll see what else I can remember :)


Guys! I am needing some assistance on putting my Kitfox IV-1050 on Full Lotus floats. I am a rookie so I'd need help on some of the basics.

Would love to chat with you on the phone if you have the time. Please send me your info via private email message through the forum.

Questions:

1. I have a 65HP Blue Head 582 with no clutch on my prop. Do I need a clutched prop?
2. Can I use my existing warp drive prop or do I need something different.
3. I have narrowed my selection down to either Zenair or Full Lotus (1260s); cost, weight, and performance. Would love additional opinions or experience.
4. I am planning on buying a used set of floats. How do I go about rigging the floats to the plane? Can I use the gear struts from my taildragger config? Do I buy/build the rest? How about the spreader bar, buy or build?
5. I have a Kitfox IV-1050 completed in 1992, do I need to beef anything up structurally before putting her on water?

Thanks for the help!

~Jason

[snowpaw]

Here is some nice informstion about rigging Full Lotus floats.

http://rolf.nossum.net/avid/onfloats/drawings/Full_Lotus_Installation.pdf