STOL performances

[carpat]

Hi guys, this is my first post on this forum. I curently own a Sonex aircraft and pretty much enjoy it but now it is time to try something else. I'm looking for an airplane with good STOL capabilities but with good speed too. I made several search on the web and local pilots and two models always come up, and this is the eternal question:

Should I build a Kitfox or a Highlander?

I do believe that the Kitfox offers a bit more than the Highlander and something that is important for me is cruising speed. What is braking me down is the STOL capabilities of the Kitfox with a 912S.

Here are my questions for you Kitfox SS owners:

1. Do you think a Kitfox can go everywhere a Highlander goes, land or take off?

2. What's the real stall numbers in any configuration?

3. Is a Kitfox SS with 912S suitable for amphib floats? And what are the performances?

4. Which kit is the easiest to build between both?

5. About parts included in the kit, is the glareshield and center console included and pre-formed in the standard kit?

Thank you very much guys for help and keep posting good comments. It is really helpful.

Pat

[jtpitkin06]

OK... I'm brave.... I'll take a stab at this one.

1. Should you buy one or the other?

This site is a Kitfox forum so most of the experience here is with Kitfox. If you are lucky, someone who also has experience in a Highlander will chime in. but don't expect any replies that say, "My Kitfox is awful, get a Highlander." Ain't gonna happen. I think were pretty biased. That's a good thing.

Ultimately, you'll need to make your own evaluation of the Highlander. Compare figures, cost, and gee whiz factor. Then bite the bullet and buy one.

The Kitfox will go just about anywhere at any time. No, it does not cruse fast. That is not the mission. You'll be looking at about 100 knots max cruise with the bigger engines. Plus or minus. Most owners fly slower to save fuel. If it is short field you want, the numbers published on the Kitfox LLC site are accurate. Is the aircraft STOL? The definition of STOL is an aircraft that can operate from a 1500 foot runway and approach or depart with a 6 degree angle. The Kitfox can do two or three takeoffs in that distance.

2. Stall speeds and performance numbers are on the Kitfox LLC site.

3. With floats you will take off at 60, climb at 60, cruise at 61-1/2 and land at 60. Well... not quite. But it isn't a DHC Beaver or a C-206 either. What are you expecting for an aircraft that has 95 hp? Look at the specs and reduce performance about 20 percent to account for dragging around rubber ducky feet. That's about average. Kitfoxes on floats have their own following. They appear to have a great time splashing about.

4. The Kitfox is not hard to build as evidenced by the high completion rate and the hundreds of them flying. The instructions are clear and complete. No advanced tooling or machine shop equipment is required. Heck, you built a Sonex... how hard can it be compared to a Sonex? The Kitfox is mostly a hacksaw and screwdriver kit. Nothing to it.

5. The glare shield and the center console are included in the standard kit. The glareshield is fiberglass and is not trimmed. The console is preformed aluminum with pre-cut slots for the flaps and rudder pedal adjusters, but the sides need some minor trimming depending on how finicky you are about fit.

6. This is the question you didn't ask: Is there someone near you that has a Kitfox that you can crawl in and out of? Reading a post isn't really going to answer any of the above questions to your satisfaction. You have to get eyes-on and hands-on touchy-feely input to make an informed decision.

Good luck in your quest.

John Pitkin
Greenville, Texas

[DesertFox4]

Carpat.


The Kitfox will have better manuals, I've seen both, and unbeatable factory support. This will, in itself, make the entire build experience more enjoyable. It's a very refined aircraft. The company is healthy, vibrant and well run and a safe placed to put a deposit for a kit aircraft. Kitfox is selling everything they can produce so that is a real positive when investing your money in a kit. That means lots of folks like yourself have, and are going through, the same mental exercises you are and they're picking the Kitfox. You'll be in good company. 5000 plus kits in 25 plus years has real weight when deciding a purchase in the kit aircraft market.
You have lots of options also with the Kitfox as far as quick build options that may not be available in other kits.

STOL capabilities of both aircraft are exceptional. Either would meet your needs with ease when short fields or obstructions are a factor. I've only flown one Highlander and it flew well. I just don't like settling for well. The controls were not near as crisp/responsive as the Kitfox (something I really love about the Kitfox) in any maneuver I put it through. Take off roll and landing were too close to use as a decision point over either aircraft.

The Highlander has an under cambered wing like the early Kitfox's had for good lift at slower speeds but suffers some in the cruise speeds. The Kitfox will give you more cruise speed. That's nice to have at no extra charge and
at no sacrifice in STOL capabilities. I'd expect the Highlander to stall at a slower speed but not a great percentage. My Kitfox model 4 stalls right around 43 mph clean and will get down into the high 30's when flaps are deployed. I've got in and stopped in under 200' on a couple occasions. Very seldom will most pilots need less unless your selling long bent props and big rocks videos.;)

The Kitfox Super Sport would be a blast with the 100 hp Rotax on floats. I think you would be amazed. Sorry no hard number on that configuration but I'd dearly love to spend lots of hours with one on floats. Maybe someday. Someone from this forum will help out with the float performance numbers.

Pat, don't forget. You get all the great people on this forum (soon to be 2,000 registered members) and our sponsors along with our friends over on the Matronics List, to help you enjoy the build and enhance your fun factor after you start flying your sexy new speedy Kitfox. That's gotta be a $50.00 retail value right there.;) No charge.

Welcome aboard Pat and soon we all hope to say- "Welcome to the wonderful world of Kitfox ownership Pat." No such thing as buyers remorse here. Just lots of exciting fun flying.
"You've waited long enough."

Steve

[Monocock]

Why would someone want a Highlander when they can have a Kitfox? From a looks point of view that's like choosing a greasy old hag with halitosis from a trailer park in favour of Cameron Diaz!

[Dorsal]

that's a little harsh, funny but harsh :D

[carpat]

Thanks everybody for your reply. Do you have any information guys about the new composite leading edge? Do you think it will lower the stall speed? Are you expecting a noticeable effect on the flight characteristics?

Pat

[Dorsal]

It seems like a good idea but as far as I know the only flying fox with it is the factory Rotec which could not be directly compared to many existing planes. Perhaps Mr. Laker will have a useful comment

[avidflyer]

One other thing to concider perhaps, is this: It's not too unusual to see an unfinished Kitfox on Barnstormers and at a far reduced price from the original factory price. (You wouldn't believe what I paid for my Kitfox 4) I don't think I've ever seen an unfinished Highlander. They haven't been around that long for the owner to finally realize he hasn't done anything on it in the last five years and probably won't in the next five years either and so he gives up on his dream. If you were to pick up an unfinished kit like that, you could save a lot right from the start. Take care,
Jim Chuk
Avid MK IV (flying)
Kitfox 4 (building)
northern Mn

[DesertFox4]

Do you have any information guys about the new composite leading edge?


It seems like a good idea but as far as I know the only flying fox with it is the factory Rotec which could not be directly compared to many existing planes. I've hear they are a big seller so we should see some flying soon. I flew a model 4 (also Rotec powered) with an early prototype over a year ago that was impressive. I didn't get enough time in it to nail down any hard numbers but I would opt for them if I was building now. There is a brand new Kitfox flying with the LLE now. It is a short wing but I haven't had a chance to go for a flight in it yet. Still in phase 1. Hopefully soon. It sure makes for a nice looking wing.

I'd sure love to fly in that gorgeous factory Kitfox with the LLE and the round engine. I did get my picture taken sitting in it at Oshkosh.

[Newkid]

If you ask me, it is the pilot. Steve wears that Highlander but he has well over a thousand hours in it. That plane is heavy though, he told me it weighs a little under 800 pounds empty, and you can tell when he takes off. I bet if you put a SS and a Highlander up against each other with comparable pilots the performance would be very close.

[chefwarthog]

Thanks everybody for your reply. Do you have any information guys about the new composite leading edge? Do you think it will lower the stall speed? Are you expecting a noticeable effect on the flight characteristics?

Pat
Salut Patrick, I send an e-mail to john McBean and I ask questions apropos of the composite leading edge kit (C.L.E.), I did a thread on that but had no responce so I push a little forward my investigation there is the result:

1-Do we need the bottom false ribs kit, if installing the C.L.E.?
No.. but I would recommend them.



2-Is there any place to install a pair of LED landing light in the C.L.E.?
No.. We have wing tips that are designed for the MicroSun LED lights. http://www.aeroleds.com/landing-lights/experimental.aspx (wlmailhtml:{4D4E55D6-1720-4C8C-BBC0-57BB1369C971}mid://00000010/!x-usc:http://www.aeroleds.com/landing-lights/experimental.aspx)



3-Do you have any picture of this C.L.E. install on a wing without the fabric cover it and covered?
Yes attached



4-Dose LED position light can be install on the Horner style wingtips, it seem thin on the edge?
We have Nav/Strobe Standoffs when installing the position lights



4-Do you have a video covering the construction of a kit fox it will be nice to have such video to support the Assembly Manual?
No.. not yet.. it is something we want to start working towards.. but there is much there. It will take time.



Merci for your attentiveness, John
You’re Welcome.. Vous etes bienvenue.. If I remember correctly J but please don’t test my French… many, many years and I’m afraid I would fail….

Like DesertFox4 sead, John has no number to support the fact that the wing is more efficient, but I am sure that they will come in a near future.

Bonne Journée a tous!

Eric

[Andrew G]

I have been very curious about that leading edge as well... thank you for posting John's comments...

But the real question of the day is...

"how did you arrive at the name "chefwarthog".

Are you indeed a chef? Warthog doesn't sound very tasty...

Personally, I cannot even make ice...

[chefwarthog]

But the real question of the day is...

"how did you arrive at the name "chefwarthog".

Are you indeed a chef? Warthog doesn't sound very tasty...

Personally, I cannot even make ice...[/quote]

Well Andrew G, I did do Army I was in the ''12e Regiment Blindé du Canada'' 12e Armoured Regiment of Canada it is a french regiment, so Chef is for "Chief Warrant Officer". Warthog is two things, When I have a band of new recruit I really like to get them stuck in mud with there 6 wheeller ''Coyote'' armoured vehicle. But some dirty tongue (follow officer) will tell you that, it is for that time that I get stuck with all my troups in the midle of a field in a blue clay hole, it seem that we look like a band of pig in a mud hole:mad:. I think the name get stick on me like a bloodstain.

[Andrew G]

Got it... a well deserved handle, and a very cool explanation.

My nickname; "Shi_ for Brains" isn't something I am very proud of and it doesn't carry well in esteemed plane forums.

BTW, did you buy a kit yet? What is your timeframe?

[chefwarthog]

No Andrew, I did not purchase my kit for now, I have to bild my garage to be able to work on my plane in, I talk about it in this thread (Is it possible? (http://www.teamkitfox.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=2317)). For now I am in the sponge mode, sipping all info that I can find. It been a 2 years quest to choose the kit that will full fill my need in back country opportunity, I narrow my choice on the Kitfox. I think a five years de deadline before to order my kit is doubtless, but I think when I will order my kit I will be ready.

[Andrew G]

I'd carry this conversation to an email, but I'm sure there are tons of lurkers like us... love the plane, but aren't building it or driving it yet.

We'll get there Chef... one big milestone is getting the wife to agree... she asked how much a kit was and I told her about $19k. So, I am about 1/3 there...

In the summers, I am about 2 hours from you... we are close to Derby, VT... so when we do get the Kitfoxes, we can buzz Lake Memphramagog...

[chefwarthog]

I think Carpat is very near to order his kit, I will go spy on him and give him a hand with is bluild, maybe he will make me free ride to visite you. For the wife I have been married for 25 years and now she is gone, so the good side of it, I will be alone to vote for this expense, I think it will pass.