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herman pahls
01-17-2011, 01:06 PM
I have an ea
Jabiru 2200 80hp in my kitfox.
Recently it refuses to start the 1st start of the day without jumping to the car.
This part of Oregon does not get very cold. 50 degrees F.
Once it has run a few minutes it will start the rest of the day immediately.
I am using a 4 year old Oddysey PC 625.
I also tried another 4 year old Oddysey PC 625 that I use in a motorcycle powered car with the same results. Starts the car great.
Before I buy another battery I would like to ask this forum what life are members getting out of Oddysey's and is the PC 625 still a good choice for the Jabiru 2200 80 hp.
Thanks Herman Pahls Oregon 541 404 6464

moosepileit
01-17-2011, 05:27 PM
Hello,

This battery works on my kitfox, checked, it's 200 CCA: Xtreme Powersports BATTERY Xtreme AGM Permaseal XTAX14-BS (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280486311053&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT)

$69 plus $12 shipping on the big auction site. Chinese battery. The Xtreme 2 is $99 and made in the USA.

SIZE: 5 15/16"L * 3 7/16"W * 5 3/4"D Item number: XTAX14-BS
Weight: 12.1500 lbs
Voltage: 12V
Capacity: 12AH
CCA: 200
Primary Applications: Powersport
Replaces: 02420500, 12V14B, 44017, 6594800, 7401886, BTX14BS, CTX14BS, CYL14BS, ES14BS, ETX14, ETX14BS, FAYTX14, GTX14BS, KMX14BS, M3RH4S, SC14FA, YTX14, YTX14BS, YUEM3RH4S




On a Lycoming/Pitts w/ only 8 Amp Alternator and maybe 2-3 30 minute flights per week, the Odyssey would only last 2 seasons, then drift out the third year.

Once I started using a decent trickle charger, it lasted 4 + years.

I just grabbed a battery minder 12248 charger/desulfator. Might want to try the $40 version for a while to see if it saves the batteries at all. The $40 version isn't much for actually charging, just maint. 12118 or so is the model #, push the button on the green light to run desulfation...

The Odyssey likes 14.2 volts. My Kitfox's Rotax 912 seems to put out 13.8 volts. That and short flights will kill a battery w/o trickle/maint charging.

I use a generic ATV 12V 12AH 150 CCA battery, has been fine down to 28 degrees for starting a 80 HP 912 UL.

I imagine it's the same for a Jab and Odyssey. Aged battery w/ some sulfation losing it's cold cranking amps- even at 50 degrees.

No maint/trickle charging, 4 years would be tough to expect the battery to have much oomph. Cars start easier than airplanes, in my experience.


I have an ea
Jabiru 2200 80hp in my kitfox.
Recently it refuses to start the 1st start of the day without jumping to the car.
This part of Oregon does not get very cold. 50 degrees F.
Once it has run a few minutes it will start the rest of the day immediately.
I am using a 4 year old Oddysey PC 625.
I also tried another 4 year old Oddysey PC 625 that I use in a motorcycle powered car with the same results. Starts the car great.
Before I buy another battery I would like to ask this forum what life are members getting out of Oddysey's and is the PC 625 still a good choice for the Jabiru 2200 80 hp.
Thanks Herman Pahls Oregon 541 404 6464

herman pahls
01-17-2011, 11:32 PM
Moose
Thanks for response.
After 4 years the Odyssey PC 625 may be used up especially for Jabiru.
I am surprized that a generic ATV battery of only 150 CCA starts the 912.
How many cubic centimeters is a 912?
The Odyssey PC 625 battery specs. are CCA 265A 9 (cold cranking amps??) MCA 350A
PHCA 625A
What does MCA and PHCA stand for?
Thanks for battery maintainance info.
Thanks Herman

RobS
01-18-2011, 09:40 AM
Herman,

The info below comes from the Odyssey Battery website - http://www.odysseybatteriesonline.co.uk/odyssey/other/faqs.php#1


MCA stands for MCA stands for the "marine cranking ampere". It refers to the number of amperes a battery can support for 30 seconds at 32°F - whereas CCA is measured at 0°F.

Pulse hot cranking amp (PHCA - 80°F) rating does not have an “official” definition. The PHCA, a short duration (about 3-5 seconds) high rate discharge, is a more realistic measurement.

herman pahls
01-19-2011, 01:53 AM
I have ordered a new PC 625 since the previous 625 was 4 years old and I did not use a battery maintainer which I have been told will significantly extend battery life.
I have an older Jabiru 80 Hp 2200 with a 1KW starter.
The newer 1.5 KW starters sell for approx. $500.
Has anyone switched from the 1 to 1.5 KW Jabiru starter and have comments regarding the outcome.
Thanks Herman

moosepileit
01-20-2011, 06:46 PM
Moose
Thanks for response.
After 4 years the Odyssey PC 625 may be used up especially for Jabiru.
I am surprized that a generic ATV battery of only 150 CCA starts the 912.
How many cubic centimeters is a 912?
The Odyssey PC 625 battery specs. are CCA 265A 9 (cold cranking amps??) MCA 350A
PHCA 625A
What does MCA and PHCA stand for?
Thanks for battery maintainance info.
Thanks Herman

Herman, 200 CCA, not 150: I edited my post below w/ the info.

Rotax 912 UL is not very high compression:
73.91cu.in. / 1211.2cm³ Compression ratio 9.0:1

avidflyer
01-21-2011, 08:35 AM
I have a 2200 Jabiru engine in my Avid MK IV and use a 360 CCA lawn tractor battery in it. Battery weighs 17.5 lbs and starts the engine with no problems up here in northern Mn. (we had -32F last night) Of course I preheat the engine in the winter before starting and fly in temps down to about 0 F. I've flown 16 different days since Dec. 4. Battery cost was about $35. It works for me. The battery in my lawn tractor is the same size, and it still works fine and it's at least 6 years old. Never do anything with it in the winter either but leave it sit. Take care,
Jim Chuk
Avid MK IV (flying)
Kitfox 4 (building)
northern Mn

herman pahls
02-03-2011, 01:13 AM
Tried a new Odyssey 625 and I still have inconsistant starting the 1st start of the day without jumping to another battery on my Jabiru 2200.
If I use a battery maintainer I get better results but not consistant.
How do I plug in a battery maintainer at back country strips? So I need to solve this problem.
Ran a #4 ground wire from battery to starter housing instead of using the frame of Kitfox for ground. No improvement.
I have been told to move the battery to the firewall instead of behind the seat to shorten the cables.
Here are my questions.
How do I know if master and starter relays are passing full current?
Has anybody tried a fuel primer on Jabiru or 912's instead of relying on the Bing enrichener system to get fuel to the clylinders faster?
Does primer help cold starts more so than bing enrichener?
If so where and how would you plumb the intake system or Bing carb.
Thanks Herman

SkySteve
02-03-2011, 08:34 AM
Herman,
I have both the Bing enricheners and primer on my 912. There are times during cold weather when 3 pumps on the primer makes a big difference in starting.

herman pahls
02-03-2011, 11:33 AM
Skysteve
Do you mind telling me where on the 912 Bings the primer fuel is injected.
Do the bings have a fitting or do you need to insert one for the primer?
Thanks Herman

avidflyer
02-03-2011, 02:49 PM
Hope it goes through this time.... Don't you just love it when you spend 10 minutes typeing a reply, and then the computer deletes your message when it goes to upload it. That just happened to me :(
Anyway, I don't think you really nead a primer to get your engine to start. If you look into the float bowl, you will see a small brass jet in one corner. When you put the choke on, fuel is pulled from above that jet for the choke circuit. If you hand prop the engine through about 6 - 10 blades with the choke on, fuel will be pulled from there into the intake manifold just like a primer would do. By the time you come around to start the engine, the space above the jet will be refilled with fuel, which will give a richer mixture when with the choke still on, you go to start the engine. As far as the electrical/ battery side goes, do you have the extra grounding strap going from the bolts on the starter to the ground? There are o rings on the other end of the starter that will interfeer with having a good ground especially as time goes on and perhaps some corrosion sets in. I have a # 4 ground cable from my battery (which is behind the seat) but I also ran a short (12") strap to the fusaloge next to the battery. I did have a # 4 on the positive side, but when I replaced it with a # 2 cable, the starter cranked much faster. Hope this will be of some help, I'll try to upload a picture of my starter with the ground straps, they are just flattened copper tubing that I had handy. Take care, Jim Chuk
Avid MK IV (flying)
Kitfox 4 (building)
northern Mn

avidflyer
02-03-2011, 02:51 PM
Here is the picture of the starter.....

herman pahls
02-03-2011, 11:51 PM
Avid Flyer
Thanks for your response and ideas.
I prefer not to install a primer system.
I flew my Kitfox with a 532 for 12 successful years.
The carbs on the 532 had enricheners which I did not use because I was advised early on to use a primer system instead of enricheners.
Cold starting the 532 was never an issue like this Jabiru has become.
I recently installed a #4 ground going to 1 of the 2 bolts you have pictured with copper straps that comes from the Odyssey PC625 behind the seat.
I also used the fuselage tubing as the only ground until the recent cold start issues.
Do you feel the #2 positive wire gives better performance when the ground is #4 because in essence the grounding through the fuse acts like a bigger wire than the #4 ?
What battery are you using behind the seat and how much does it weigh?
Thanks Herman

herman pahls
02-03-2011, 11:53 PM
avidflyer
I just noticed you gave battery specs. earlier.

avidflyer
02-04-2011, 08:20 AM
Hi Herman, from what I can tell, lots of others use the same battery as you have. Here is a thought. Hook a set of jumpercables from your battery to the solinoid and engine block and see if you get better cranking. If it's improved, try it just on the ground side, and then just on the positive side to see if one benifits more from having more wire carring the current. (your existing cable pluss the jumper will be supplying power for the starter) As far as you question about my cables. I have a # 2 from battery on positive side, and in effect 2 # 4s on the ground side. If you are using the fusaloge for a ground, of course you need a good ground strap from the fusaloge to the engine also. When I first exchanged the 582 for the Jabiru engine, I had # 4 wire from the battery on both positive and ground. That worked fine on the 582. It didn't do good on the Jabiru. I changed to the # 2 positive and extra # 4 on the ground, put in a larger battery and all was fine. Hope this helps.
Jim Chuk
Avid MK IV (flying)
Kitfox 4 (building)
northern Mn

avidflyer
02-04-2011, 09:52 PM
I was doing some things today in the hangar, so just for the fun of it, and because we've been talking about it, I gave the Jabiru a try without any preheating. It was +27F and after pulling it through 10 blades by hand with the choke on, engine started before it turned over 1 whole revolution. We had some freezing drizzle, so I didn't fly. Take care, Jim Chuk

HighWing
02-04-2011, 10:19 PM
One thing not mentioned yet, I think. Have you checked all connections for corrosion?

Lowell

herman pahls
02-06-2011, 11:29 PM
I appreciate everyones response to my cold engine starting issues.
Avidflyer: Thanks for photo and grounding and wire size ideas.
I had already tried a separate #4 ground to the starter along with the fuselage ground with inconclusive results.

Highwing: You mentioned corrosion and I am asking myself if the starter and master relay may be limiting power flow due to internal corrosion?
Both are 3 years old and purchased from aircraft spruce.
I was considering replacing both since they are only $11.oo and $34.oo as part of the elimination process.

My list of things to try.
Another #4 positive cable
Remove the master switch and go direct to battery.
Place the battery on the firewall to get the shortest #2 cables possible and then redue weight and balance
Have the starter rebuilt again and see if it can be modified to get more power.

Thanks for your continuing ideas.
Herman

Paul Z
02-07-2011, 01:55 PM
Cold starting, cold oil, cold battery, and thick oil may be the cause. If the engine oil is more like STP then oil, and the battery looses charge when it is cold. If it is just that the the engine is cranking slowly you may try heatng the engine up versus jumping it to start, to see if it is a battery, starter or cold issue.