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View Full Version : Picking an EFIS



mcguif0a
10-27-2008, 07:01 PM
So I have decided that I am deffinately going with an EFIS for avionics with some basic analog gages as pack-ups. I have been looking at http://www.grtavionics.com/product.aspx?productno=1&featureno=5 from GRT,from Advanced Flight Systems and http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/dynond100.php from Dynon. I have also talked to Stein Air but I would like to hear what everyone here thinks.
I won't need any sort of EMS so that doesn't factor in.
They all seem to have much of the same except with very different price tags.
Any thoughts and experiance with these or other systems would be a huge help.

mcguif0a
10-28-2008, 02:50 PM
My main concern is that I don't know/understand the differances between these systems. They all claim to be the top of the line but the Dynon runs at 3000$, the GRT system is around 3500$ and AFS and True Track run close to 5000 when all is said and done. These look to me to be very similar systems but they have a huge price gap. Is there more reliability in the AFS or true Track? What do they have that the GRT or Dynon doesn't have?

RandyL
10-28-2008, 03:57 PM
My main concern is that I don't know/understand the differances between these systems. They all claim to be the top of the line but the Dynon runs at 3000$, the GRT system is around 3500$ and AFS and True Track run close to 5000 when all is said and done. These look to me to be very similar systems but they have a huge price gap. Is there more reliability in the AFS or true Track? What do they have that the GRT or Dynon doesn't have?

Tyler,

I've followed the evolution of this market closely and watched the companies evolve. These systems are getting so feature rich and option laden that establishing an apples to apples comparison can be difficult. Overall though the cost order is:

Dynon (cheapest)
AFS (more expensive than Dynon, less than comparable GRT)
GRT (more than the either Dynon or AFS).

It takes a fair amount of study to properly compare the pricing but I'm confident you'll find they sort out as I've indicated. Watching carefully over in the RV world I can tell you that all are well-liked companies that provide excellent support. There are other EFIS makers where the reputation and support are not so good.

I chose AFS for my most recent RV and will also put in the SS I have under construction. I would put the actual purchase off as long as possible however so you get the latest generation product. These guys are updating their products like crazy. There's a bit of a feature war going on and I know for a fact that you'll see yet another generation of improvements announced at SNF '09.

No question I prefer the AFS product and there are lots of reasons why that I learned when I did my own in-depth study. Dynon for example did not have data collection or voice alerts, and I really liked the SD card feature on the AFS for software updates and taking flight data home to analyze. These features, and a few others, made the step-up worth it to me. That said there are lots of happy pilots out there with the other two company's products as well. I know the owner of AFS, Rob Hickman, would be happy to speak with you and provide some comparision features. He can be reached at 503-263-0037 x11.

FYI, here's my plan, though no doubt some details will change...

137

DesertFox4
10-28-2008, 04:14 PM
My main concern is that I don't know/understand the differances between these systems.You need to do more homework then before purchasing. If you don't need to fill your panel just yet then plan to attend EAA's Sun-N-Fun in Lakeland, Fl.
It is scheduled for April 21-26th. That's the next scheduled big event that is close where you can get your hands on all of the units you are interested in . Find out what features/benefits you can't live without and which ones you don't need by trying them all. Twenty minutes with each unit and the decision may be very apparent. It's too big of an investment to roll the dice on. Price means little if your purchase doesn't fulfill your desired mission.


If you can't wait until Sun-N-Fun at the very least give our sponsors a call and discuss your requirements with them.
Kitfox Aircraft LLC also supplies at least two of the units you're interested in and they have flown them. John will give you an honest evaluation. Check with them for pricing.
They are dealers also.http://www.kitfoxaircraft.com (http://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/)


SteinAir carries all of the manufacturers you mentioned.

darinh
10-29-2008, 07:39 AM
Tyler,

I just finished my 7 and installed the Dynon D100. I absolutely love flying behind it...much better than steam gauges IMO. I also run the GRT EIS and it is a great product. I think Dynon gives the biggest bang for the buck...at least they did a year ago when I bought mine and they have since added a bunch of options to it (most of which we don't or wouldn't use in our Kitfoxes). All of these can be coupled to autopilots (I don't see the application of an autopilot in a Fox though), GPS (this is awesome to have an HSI coupled to the GPS...really cool and useful), etc.

All of these are coming out with SV (synthetic vision) that looks super cool but again, probably a bit of overkill in a kitfox...but if it comes with the software then it would be great to have. Here is a pic of my panel and a shot of my D100 during a flight. You can see the HSI coupled to the GPS showing wind speed and direction, TAS, GS, heading, etc. Notice the density altitude (11,440') and the Fox is still showing a climb of 650 fpm at 72 IAS and 86 TAS...pretty awesome!

mcguif0a
10-29-2008, 03:27 PM
WOW thanks for the feedback.
Randy: I talked to Ron once already at AFS and he actually told me to contact you... small world. I will continue looking at figuring out ecactly what I need.

DF: I know I need to do a fair amount of homework. I don't want to wait till april though because I plan to get the plane certified and testing by Febuary March. I do however have a huge resouce from my local eaa chapter. There are about 30 different RV flying around here and I am going to see if anyone will let me ride along to see how there system works.

darinh: I am well aware of your recent completion and am quite jealus. Sometimes right before I go to work on my own plane I go online to take a look at yours just for a little extra moto. The Dynon looks like a top pick due to price but it will probably come down between the Dynon and AFS. Thanks for your imput and what are you doing up over 11,000 and climbing? Just to prove to the rest of us you can or are you going over the rockies.

RandyL
10-29-2008, 07:51 PM
Ok, since Darin gets to show off an in-flight screen so do I. Here's a screen dump from a flight to California in my RV-3B. Actually, the ability to do screen dumps is another cool feature of the AFS -- hold in button 5 for 2 seconds and it captures a bitmap of the screen to the SD card. Note that my little RV-3 will do 188 mph TAS on 5.4 gph when leaned out, not bad huh?

Lot's of info on this screen. It will seem confusing at first but after just a couple of hours you learn just what to look at and when, it becomes quite natural. As Darin indicates, I would never go back to steam guages.

143

There's a zillion other features this box has, I wish you lived closer or I'd give you a personal demo.

darinh
10-31-2008, 12:56 PM
If I were going to do it again, I would opt for the D180 or another EFIS that had the combined flight display and graphical engine instruments like Randy's EFIS. I wanted to use the D180 Flightdeck system Dynon makes but when I spoke with them, they told me they didn't support the 914 just the 912 with the probes available to them. At the time, I didn't know better but the probes are not that hard to find so it wouldn't have been a problem.

Randy,

Love the RV's! Started building a -7 before the Kitfox and wish I still had it. This will definitely be my next project.

Tyler, 11k is not that rare of an altitude to cruise at when flying in the Rockies...having said that, I very rarely climb that high unless crossing the Uinta Mountains or other ranges that necessitate it. For this I was just doing some testing to see how much my MAP dropped off at various altitudes and to see what climb rates I could expect to maintain up in the clouds. I know I should do a "service ceiling" test but I don't think that will happen...I am ok knowing that it is upwards of 20k.

DanB
11-01-2008, 02:31 PM
Randy,
That is a cool feature being able to grab a snap shot. How is the readability of the screen in the sunlight?
Thanks,

DesertFox4
11-01-2008, 06:01 PM
Thanks for your input and what are you doing up over 11,000 and climbing? Just to prove to the rest of us you can or are you going over the rockies.Tyler, just for fun a friend took his model 4 speedster up to 17,900' with the 912S . It was still climbing nicely . Yep he had oxygen on board. The SkyStar 7 with the turbo was flown in the lower flight levels (IFR) a few times. It had the 914 turbo and constant speed prop. :)

Jorge&Cindy
11-20-2008, 11:13 PM
I'm considering the Dynon 180, nice to have it all in one package, although I'll still has a standy ASI and Altimeter. Looking at the Dynon website, they sell a package for the Rotax. My question is how programmable is it? For instance, their display has fuel quantity, which we don't need. They have all the necessary sensors and probes, but not for water temp. Can the fuel gauges be programmed out and replaced with water temp and where would you get the sensor. The website doesn't say anything about water temp and thought I would ask here before calling them.

RandyL
11-21-2008, 08:36 AM
...although I'll still have a standy ASI and Altimeter.

In the interest of stimulating discussion on panel logic, this is something I don't understand. Modern EFISs are very reliable, I don't know the precise failure rate but if we could see the numbers I think we'd see that it's about as probable as your engine quitting. I'd bet that most of you still building will have a GPS in the panel also and there's a good chance it will be a Garmin 396/496. If so then the GPS provides groundspeed, GPS alititude, and even a mock instrument panel. The Garmin also has built in battery back-up. Should the EFIS ever go down, either by failure itself or failure of the ship's entire electrical system, just use the GPS to fly to the nearest airport.

So, here's the question for debate: why add the expense, weight, and complexity of backup ASI and altimeter on a VFR-only aircraft?

desertfox1
11-21-2008, 09:51 AM
Dynon supports coolant temperature in the 180. I am installing
a 180 now, and there are many functions I won't use but it's
good to know they are available. With the GP inputs it is
possible to monitor carb heat, coolant temp and pressure, flap,
elevator and rudder trim, and etc.

I am lucky enough to have the "factory demo" which is equiped
with a Dynon 100 and 120. No analog gauges. After a couple
of flights this Spring I am now very comfortable with the EFIS
system. With the backup battery installed I don't see a need
for them.

Phil Laker

n85ae
12-02-2008, 11:57 AM
Having previously made a living as an electronics technician, and before that
as an Avionics tech in the Navy my only concern is that when the box fails
and likely it will at some point, you just lost a BIG chunk of instruments.
They sure are nice, with a lot of features, but I'd sure hate to be flying
along and zzzz..... poof... And all I have left is a big chunk of empty space
to look at.

The other device I have which I rely on a lot, but for work, is my laptop
computer which gets hauled around a lot and is a pretty similar device
and I have killed three of them in the past four years. Granted I carry
them daily, and don't always play nice with them, but still I think the point
is made.

Jeff

RandyL
12-02-2008, 12:25 PM
Jeff, I agree with you which is why we need reasonable redundancy in the cockpit. The probabbility of my EFIS and my Garmin 496 going down simultaneously is just about zero. I can get down to an airport solely with my 496 no problem should my EFIS ever quit.

I know you can buy an internal GPS for the AFS boxes and save some money, but then you really would have all your eggs in one basket.

jonbakerok
12-07-2008, 06:50 AM
I'm with you, Randy, up to the point. The Kitfox is primarily a fun flyer. No reason to pack it with redundancy when you can just look out the window.

However, I'll still have a mechanical airspeed indicator. I don't plan to fly my Kitfox in bad weather but I do plan to fly it on windy days. GPS groundspeed isn't accurate in wind, and as far as I know, nobody makes a reasonably priced (<$100) stall indicator for the Kitfox.

n85ae
12-10-2008, 09:40 AM
I'd go the very simple basic instrument approach if I built mine
again. The only real addition would be an attitude indicator.
I have a very IFR panel now, with vac system, glideslope, marker
recvr, etc. It was in hindsight an enormous waste of money because
the plane is not a good IFR platform, so I don't fly it IFR.

Of the stuff invested in the panel though, I really like my Bendix
King KX-155 which has to be one of the best pure radio's I
have ever used. Crystal clear and range goes way way WAY
out. Not a lot of features but a REALLY solid radio.

I have a GNC-250XL, which is a great GPS Comm, but took me
a week of flying it on the desk at home with external power in
simulator mode to learn the features. Radio in it is good, but not
as good as the KX-155

Jeff

Slyfox
12-16-2008, 05:12 PM
here is my panel.

http://www.home.comcast.net/~steveallbee/latestpanel1.JPG

I have the old Iq3600a, which I like a lot, I've turned off just about everything you can think of, mainly terrain warning, thing would go off all the time if I left that on.
That white piece of paper in the center has all the local airports with the freq and altitude for quick reference and a slot number for the radio, I just dial in the number and all is set.
The thing dangling in the center is my music, holds 240 songs. Things like this are a pain to adjust, so I have a stereo over the right door. Allows for quick turn down and if I want a special selection of songs, it takes cd's, than if I feel like the local radio...
Warn light in the middle for low fuel, like that one.
THe transponder is above the left door.
This plane is so simple.
I fly the plane and rarely look at the guages, I fly out the window.
When I fly at night I look at the main three, altitude, airspeed and rpm.
My light is over head, powered by batteries.
I keep my electric load down, for that heated vest I ordered.

Now I just need my new motor, waiting on John now. Can't wait for that one, an extra 20horses, way kool I say.