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mcguif0a
10-22-2008, 01:33 PM
I am entering the process of thinking about instruments and avionics. I was originally planning on the normal gages that I learned how to fly with found in the standard C-152.
After checking out some pictures of planes at the most recent fly-in I see that some people have gone with these EFI systems.
Are these systems worth the money?
I also see that these planes have a screen for each side. Is this two complete and separate systems or is one just a screen with showing what the other one shows?
Last I am thinking about getting one of the Garmin Experimental Packages found at this link, http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/garminPackages.php. Has anyone done this? What are your thoughts?
Thanks
Tyler

RandyL
10-22-2008, 02:10 PM
Tyler, let me admit my bias right up front... I wouldn't touch an old fashioned steam gauge. The reason is that they are usually heavy, often inaccurate, and end up costing more. Virtually any of the modern combo EFIS & engine monitor boxes will end up saving weight and wiring complexity, and will be far more accurate in every regard. Depending on the instrument suite it may even save money over the same set of separate gauges. Most of the modern EFIS boxes even have built-in g-meters, slip/skid balls, and magnetometers (compass) thereby eliminating those separate instruments.

When you see two-screen installations there is generally data sharing going on. For example only one box will have the AHRS which gives attitude into, then that signal is shared with the other box. Same with engine instruments. One of the benefits is that if one screen goes down the data can still be show on the other. These things are far more reliable than steam gauges though so that's a low probability.

My attitude toward any sort of instrument is that if it isn't accurate why have it? It's purpose is to give you data as accurately as possible, tolerating a known inaccurate instrument doesn't make sense. This goes for all your pitot/static instruments too as well as engine instruments. I have flown right up next to countless RVs and all of the EFIS boxes match mine within 1-2 mph. Most of the old fashioned ASIs and altimeters have errors, some off by as much as 10 mph.

I'd recommend you look at Advanced Flight Systems and Dynon as the two vendors of choice. Regarding where to buy them, at least give a call to Stein at SteinAir (http://www.steinair.com). There's a reason they do more RV panels than anyone.

Obviously I'm not one of those guys who things an old fashioned six pack is 'romantic'. No, give me data presented in an intuitive manner that helps me manage my workload, and make it accurate. The heck with 'tradition'!

Oh, and the Garmin stack you're looking at is the pick of the litter IMHO. You'll LOVE the "monitor standby" feature of the SL40.

kmul
10-22-2008, 02:50 PM
this decision really has me torn. i love the sacred six and they are what i am familiar with. the flight deck 180 looks really nice but i see all this stuff in one little screen and my brain more easily focuses on the old steam gauges and the info seems more assessable somehow. i have never flown with glass and dont know how much of a transition it really is. i know the way to go is with the fd 180 but i am having a hard time letting go of wanting the old gauges. remember what it was like to look at the dashboard of a nice vintage english sport car and what dashboards look like today. i loved the lucas ammeter on the triumph motorcycles even tho they were so incredibly useless. so i am not always logical about this decision. i havent flown in a long time and worry about flying the kitfox for the first time and transitioning to glass at the same time.

RandyL
10-22-2008, 03:21 PM
It will take several hours to be truly comfortable with a new digital display. At that point you'll wonder why you even thought about keeping the old stuff. You WILL adapt to it though, no doubt about it.

Can't help you with the second part, ;-) If you truly like the aesthetic of the old style gauges then that is probably what you should get. We each build our planes to suit ourselves with our own inividual set of likes/dislikes. Don't ya love experimental aviation?

jonbakerok
10-22-2008, 04:48 PM
"Just because I want it" is a plenty good enough reason!

But if your goal is to build a simple and inexpensive VFR weekend flier, steam guages are still cheaper for one reason -- you don't need gyros. As soon as you say you want the full six-pack, you might as well buy a Dynon or Enigma, because they'll both come out about the same price.

As near as I can tell, the absolute cheapest panel I could build would use a set of Vans engine intruments with Falcon flight instruments and no gyros. That came out to $1596 (including a turn coordinator, which I don't really need).

But for $200 more, I could can get a GRT EIS and full engine instrumentation and alarms, which seems like a no-brainer ($1813 for my Jabiru).

If you step up to glass, you get gyros plus a whole bunch of other goodies. If the Kitfox was my only plane, I'd probably spring for it, since then I'd wind up using it for traveling. The cheapest seems to be the Dynon 180, at $3521. $4230 gets you an MGL enigma which also includes a GPS.

Concerning avionics, my RV had a full Garmin 430 stack, and I loved it but hardly used it. This plane will probably have a Garmin 296 GPS, Garmin 320 transponder, a rebuilt Narco radio, and a PS Engineering intercom. The Garmin transponder is the only way to go. Anything else either wastes 5 pounds or $500, and you can find the 320 used. If I ran across a used SL40 COM, I'd be real tempted, but I happen to have an old Narco 810 that the factory will upgrade for $400.

Mnflyer
10-22-2008, 05:14 PM
Hi I'm maybe old fashioned but I totally dislike the blinking / flashing electronic gizmos that drives your eyes wild when flying. At this stage of my life flying is for fun no more work so why not have nice analog gauges you can just glance at and know whats happening. If I had the panel space in the Kitfox that MLG contraption would go on e bay and I install a couple of nice gauges.
As for accuracy the MLG E1 is totally unreliable as a tach and worthless as an oil pressure gauge, the oil temp seems to work as do the EGTs I know that the CHT's read high. Watching that thing while flying, flashing back and forth trying to figure out witch cyl its reporting is not my idea of relaxing now a nice dual analog EGT or CHT with the needle just setting there telling where the temps are that's nice. Only way I have an accurate tach and oil pressue is to have an analog tach and oil pressur gauge.
Anyway that's my feelings and I like it that way

mcguif0a
10-23-2008, 03:44 AM
Thank you all for your thoughts.
I plan on having my IFR certification soon and would like to have my KF to be IFR certified. I dream of using it for comuting to work some day.
Knowing this will using a FD 180 with a garmin experimental stack be able to be certifiec for IFRR flight. I will take a peak at the FARs to see what instrumentation is required today but will it matter weather the instruments are analog or electric?
Tyler

RandyL
10-23-2008, 07:53 AM
I hear ya, but one of the things most of the new boxes have is audio warnings. My box has audible warnings for virtually everything. Imagine a soothing pleasant female voice in your headset... "check canopy" or "check fuel level", etc. when something isn't the way it's supposed to be. Helps you keep your eyes out of the cockpit yet always be aware of an out of parameter item. I think that's one of the differences between the brands, AFS has this while I don't believe Dynon does. It's a really useful feature to have in day-to-day flying -- you virtually can't overlook anything.

Of course we each have our own preference, don't ya LOVE experimentals!

Mnflyer
10-23-2008, 01:51 PM
Hi Randy YES I DO just Love experimental
One can try something and if you don't like put on the shelf and try another, and I just love going to the Wal-Mart aircraft parts section of the store and getting parts and supplies.